people who rely on stipend recipients for business

Sorry, I've seen some spectacular things ingame, but nothing I would pay REAL USD for. I'll save my VR money and use it to by VR items. When I can take the item out of game into RL, then talk to me about spending USD. Until then, game item = game money...quality doesn't enter into it.

No, not after high school, but I could correct your grammar. (And I don't mean just the punctuation and spelling in the above sentence.)


That is absolutely the farthest thing from "fact" I ever heard. LL just got done making it so they can start selling Lindens. Can you not put two and two together?


Drone drone drone. If they made a difference, it was minimal and clearly non-lasting.


I've told you over and over the psychology of it; you just seem deaf to it. If you don't want to hear me when I explain it to you, I invite you to look at, for example, Maklin's post.

coco

Cute - Irrelevant, but cute.

I can - seems you can not. LL has thought up a way to tap into some money when injecting new L$ into the economy. Phil's clumsy way of describing the idea - selling sink money back into the pool - just meand LL wants to have some extra income when the economy needs the extra L$. Making it a regular event would screw up the economy so bad it wouldn't even be laughable - as the damage done from the amorphous announcement of the change in the TOS by Robin suggests.

Too little done. Does not negate the need to stabilize the economy.

He wants something for nothing. If he and folks thinking like him leave I see nothing whatever lost by thier leaving. To try and excuse such vile behavior by hiding behind the false idea that people's efforts become valueless simply becasue the work results in something "virtual" is shameful and disingenuous.

And you have never once explained what you think the psychology is. You have only mentioned the results - not the same thing at all.

Don't bother trying to use logic on Jillian. I tried in another thread and she did is what she is doing to you 'You don't understand' 'you don't read' ''you are deaf to...' 'I have already explained' you want something for nothing'. Repeated endlessly until you give up.

In her reply to you, I magically want 'something for nothing' because I don't cash out like she does and I only spend ingame cash (stipend and store profits) on ingame items. Apparently if you don't spend USD, to Jillian you aren't a real valued player. In her twisted little world view, since I do not try to put a price on my free time (hell, if I wasn't building in SL, I'd be screwing around in EQ2, WoW or one of the text mucks...the time to me is a writeoff) its somehow shameful abd disingenuous. I wouldn't expect anyone to pay USD for what i make...but she does, so I am being disingenuous and shameful? What a crock of s**t...but she's been full if it in every thread I have ever seen of hers.

She's the closet thing to forum bot I have seen on these forums, and there are some real winners here. She just repeats the same 'i've already explained it' mantra when she hasn't and questions the motivations of folks that do not agree with her....over and over, refusing to even consider another viewpoint may be possible. When they give up in the face of her illogic, she considers it a win.




Newsflash Jillian, your time don't mean squat to me....if you want money for your time, get a second RL job...don't expect me to pay for a pile of pixels. And yes, every plane you make is still a collection of 1's and 0's on someone elses computer that I can NEVER have in the real world....call it shameful, but I am NOT going to pay you or anyone else USD for a pile of pixels. I make my piles of pixels for FUN in time I would spend non-productively anyway and sell them for ingame currencly to use ingame. And to be honest, you would not be missed either if you left SL...you provide nothing tangible and are expecting USD for it....you're at best a parasite.

Hmm, I see not only do you feel you've a right to monies you also feel only certain parties should be able to speak on the topic... my, how forward thinking and enlightened of you. Really does speak volumes as to your perspective.

I'm sorry, as to the rest I'm not quite able to parse most of it. It seems you're saying you lack a sense of humour. Quite alright you really didn't have to spell it out like that, most reading this thread realized that a bit ago. Kudos for attempting to clarify further though. ^.-




Quotes then? I've logs of both protests, please, go to SLuniverse and post away, make sure you get all the truly sickening points made by anyone at the protest there. I'll wait. ^.^

All that happened last eve is the same that occurred in this thread. Reasoned calm explanations as opposed to rambling on in a emotionally borne, trembling hyperbole, dutifully ignoring anything that may sway preconceived notions and sans any evidence or logic to back up points other than posters claims that it should be cause they feel it should be.




You must be a hoot to hang with huh?

Yes! You're right! How silly of me! *puts on serious scowl* Da intraweb is SERIOUS business. ^.- We must take this seriously, do not dare take those whom take themselves so seriously unseriously!! I'm serious! For the love of god man! Think of your 60 cents USD a week! Think of the prim babies! You're making baby jesus cry cause you aren't taking this srly.^.-




Why? That doesn't sound terribly fun, well maybe with the right partner... where is this proof of which you speak exactly? And how is raising legitimate economic points, which you've managed once again to completely ignore (yet again) in favour of rambling of on about tangent x proof of anything other than your own unwillingness to listen to anything other than yourself?

Really, you've quite mastered the art of conversing with yourself whilst happily applying motives (sans logic or reason and despite evidence to the contrary) to anyone whom doesn't fit your apparently narrow world view. ^.^ Carry on.




Our group? Hmm, as I recall (and have the logs to back up), all any of those there to watch (y'know with those pesky playful senses of humour, how does that invalidate the points raised again?) did was raise the specter of legitimate and valid economic principles when some were raising the 'feel good Inc. principle of entitlement' as a basis for their reasoning.

Again (and I'm typing extra slow just to make sure you catch it this time for sake of reading comprehension) we don't have a horse in this, the results will occur regardless of SL users and will occur in the interest of LL's bottom line. The bottom line is there is a glut of L$s in circulation and the solution is either more sinks or lessening sources or hopefully a combination of the two.



Anyway we were (and are! ^.^) a fairly cheerful lot and it was a fairly pleasant protest all said and done. We were cheerfully passing out Ordinal's torches and protest signs to both camps and having a fairly reasoned and entertaining debate with Cocoa.

You keep saying you're done, but are you really? Are you sure I couldn't offer you fifths and sixths portions then? You really seem to luver them leftovers... mmm-mmm good, you just have to keep coming back for more. ^.^


(Pro-tip: People might actually be happy to have a reasoned discussion with you as opposed to giving up and just lampooning if you didn't repeatedly blow them off and attempt to demonize them for the sin of having a differing perspective than yours. If you in fact had read the posts in this thread and elsewhere you'd have realized we were never advocating stipend removal, as its currently the only infusion point for new linden generation, but can see the need for future limits and additional sinks if a viable-stable economy is desired, which is the basis of SL atm and so would be presumedly be desirable.)

hey maklin, you sound like my grandmother, except in english!

Projecting much skippy?



How so exactly? I don't see value judgment other than your own attempts at insulting appraisals. In fact she's said repeatedly that you don't need to spend any monies to have a good time in SL nor has she advocated removal of stipends, in fact rather the reverse. She has stated repeatedly that there is a need for them as a function of a introduction point for new lindens and atm moment it is near the last if not the last source for said.

Seems to me you're building a strawman and projecting a bit. Could you quote where she's made those statements or claimed if one doesn't spend USD you aren't valued? Or are they solely residents of your mind? I'll wait.





... but wait, didn't you say you were willing to play WoW, omgdz dude! You're about t'be ripped off! Best call EQ2 too demand that a free account! You deserve it! You are momma's special snowflake! Free freedoms to Maklin! Boycott your local cinema, they are just pixels on a screen! Fight the power!

Or opt out, either way, no ones forcing you to do anything you don't want to. ^.^

I see Jillian sent in her attack lapdog. Rant on.

laptog? I'm intrigued! It sounds cute? Do you make them in world? I'd happily pay you real lindens which have USD value for one, yknow cause its the basis of the economy and all. Say sixty cents worth? ^.-


(So I guess this means you cant back up your claims about her then? Great glad we were able to clear that up so quickly. ^.^)

Smart lady! I don't buy things in games, never have in a MMORPG even though it would have been easy enough to do (lots of folks recommended IGE when I played Anarchy Online and UO) and made things a WHOLE lot smoother. I mean, why spend real money for a sword of uberness in a MMO? In ten levels, its useless to me...and the RL cash I could use to either save or to do something with friends RL. The analogy holds true in SL....I like the looks of the Dominus Shadow vehicle. If I bought cash on the Lindex, what happens in a week or three when I grow bored of it? I've got something useless to me and I am out the money I could have saved or used to do something with friends RL. To me, virtual items have NEVER had the appeal of using the same money to go and do something RL with friends or family.

So, I prefer to (other than paying for the account itself, being premium here) to only conduct business ingame with currency I make ingame. That way I don't end up with useless 'oh shiney!' junk and out the money once the new wears off. And if inflation sets in or the market utterly collapses, I am not harmed financially in RL.

Its dangerous enough investing RL.

And just like Jillian, you pick on inconsequential things (a typo in this case). You two go great togeather. Quite a pair. Not required last I checked to back up anything to you or Jillian. So feel free to shove off anytime!

do you believe in ice cream? personally i find it just either melts all over my hands if i try to savour it or save it for 3 or 4 weeks down the road.

but more importantly - why do you have a premium account? it is completely contradictory to your statements on RL vs VR.

Okies, just making sure I'm reading you right, you can't back up any of your personal attacks or claims regarding your opinion of her opinions, and your posting was 90% hyperbole. Gotcha, again, glad we cleared that up. Thanks! You're a gem. ^.^

No, like I said, I will pay for the basic account in any game I play. That is normal and expected in most games (LL is the first I have ever seen, before GuildWars that had playing for free. I honestly do not mind helping LL financially and paying for the right to play the game like I do in EQ2. I draw the line at buying money or buying virtual items above and beyond that level though (EQ2 has all sorts of add-ons to their website...character tracking, vanity pages, etc...all for a fee...I do not have those). I ESPECIALLY object to giving RL cash to another character ingame. However, I have no trouble paying ingame currency I earned ingame for items. It has no real meaning to me.

Honestly though, the way LL keeps going, kissing up to the content moguls and land barons, I am considering tiering down. I make enough ingame to pay land rental, so I really do not need the Premium, and if they want a game of 'by the wealthy, for the wealthy' I do not see them deserving of my financial support.

And saving ice-creme is not a good thing. But when it melts, cats really like it! (then again, mine will eat damn near anything or at least try ).

Atributing things I did not say as a direct quote. Not nice. Filing an abuse report. Have a nice day! End of conversation with you.

Hmm, not sure you'll have much luck with that, but feel free. ^.^ We'll let it find that the one I filed on your personal attacks has been keeping a spot warm for it when it gets there.

The irony, is so thick you can cut it with a knife, or poke at it with a spork. ^.-

Glad to see you're still saying you can't back up any thing you've thus far stated. It's always good to clear these things up. ^.^

maklin, when you pay LL, it is for VR goods (data). you can't trade your 512 m2 land and your 2000 L$/m stipend for RL movie tickets. you are essentially paying LL for L$ to buy virtual goods.

different from other games you played, LL does not employ a substantial art team to build content for you to enjoy. that is how sl is different from other games. your mmog dogma of only paying for game provider goods and services doesn't translate well to sl, where LL has engendered a platform for 3rd parties to create the content. it is not an issue of financial support but of value for value exchange.

that is not to say that you should buy L$ from the lindex. you might be able to do just fine with your inworld sales or stipends. the problem is in your viewing content creators as the same as content consumers. your values for who should get paid for what does not account for the very nature of this virtual world. in SL, LL doesn't distribute the art teams content. the "art team" conducts business directly with the consumers to create a very responsive line of products and thus customizeable virtual world experience.

but most problematic is that you are not realizing that you are breaking your own cardinal rule and paying LL for L$ to purchase fake stuff rather then buying ice cream for your kitty

Don't take me wrong Jill. You're a smart and good person but...

when you can find quality, useable, low prim items in SL you let me know. MOst of the "free" houses in the junkyard I tried using on my FL plot I had. They fit fine, but too many prims to furnish them even. almost ALL free content has isues and that is why the creators made them free.

I do care to create, and the unfortunate upshot is to do so I have to have a place to do it...not the sandboxes as those are shooting galleries and liasons will NOT respond to calls to them, or any other place for that matter, and for me to support creating anything I have to rent or buy land to create it on, pay for uploads, and since it is supported via selling, pay overhead on a shop. When LL got rid of basic stipend they got rid of 80% of the buyers in SL. Simple fact. Remove the buyers and you cannot sell your stuff period.

I don't know, splash-able water is pretty nifty, so is the CCC combat system (used by lots of vehicle smiths throughout SL). Though I freely admit my bias in regards to both of those, they are quality items specifically designed to be free and for the benefit of the SL community as a whole. ^.^

They are out there, wonderful fun things, for free, from Lex Neva's holoball game, to the pothealers adventure, lots to do for those whom don't cash out. Like me. ^.-

Well, that aint so... not toally.
I've free "splashable water" that I made to be quality. Free teleport effect... free AFK chamber... Point behind them was to hae something out there cost-free that really did enhance play.

Where it's true it's a lot of sorting chaff for the wheat, I know there are quite a few things out there that are free and of quality. Or can be brought up to that with a bit of effort.

i showed up for one reason alone as i do not find protesting a whole lot of fun i find other things fun

to make sure that LL didn't think that those guys spoke for me

now are we done yet?

you see my idea of enjoyment is actually not dealing with these forums and so i posted awhile back i am done if you noticed i stopped replying seriously awhile back

my idea of enjoyment in SL is staying out of political debates ingame about usd and why i won't pay more usd on top of my membership to make people happy because honestly its not really anyones business. I prefer to build stuff and script and go to parties ingame.

wagling a sign was something i did because i thought it was needed because a bunch of people are hell bent on taking away the things i thought i had paid for already..

im sorry if you dont understand that and clearly you don't because your busy putting a dollar value on it still

so here we go again in the circle its very simply

the product i paid for in this game is from Linden labs. It was a premium membership that included the right to buy virtual land and collect a small stipend. I did not agree to make money off of the game. I did not agree to help make money for others off this game. I bought the game because it offers a certain type of gaming experience which *gasp* includes tools to create my own content while i hold an active membership.

Now a bunch of people seem to want to dismantle the premium membership well i don't agree to that so i said something.

Its a very simple concept.

you think its funny though? fine i think your mocking me so i want nothing to do with you

so go your way and i willl go mine but there is no further reasoning behind why i was there other then to represent my premium membership benefits and make sure they stay intact.


I found it took time away from my gaming experience i missed a party and could not finish boxing up my newest product for sale. So to me it was a side step away from what i really want to do.

next time i will ignore it all together i guess. Paying attention to something and showing i cared seems to have caused a bunch of problems for me which i dont want including mockery and mean spirited posts about me and how i think. (or i guess for you dont think since i am such a fool to you)

regarding your tip as i have said i'm not interested in the actual debate but i am sure by now that is painfully obvious? or was i too subtle

Gotta have a place and pool to use the water, and gotta ahve a vehicle with mod rights to put the CCC into. I was referring to completed goods, not parts for assembly

The CCC kit comes with a free mouse look vehicle (zoooom! free flying goodness!) and there are several free CCC fighter vehicle rezers (fighters directly out of our catalog, not cheap ones but ones we actually sell; at Abbotts and Caldbeck) laying out for use for you and a friend to shoot each other out of the sky with, or just fly about. ^.^

As to the water you'd mentioned premium and a 512 parcel, well there is your land... for a splash-able puddle or pool, or you could rent, Caledon is expanding, lovely, themed, and quality controlled and its cheaper than owning mainland. ^.^

No, in fact it's been pretty obvious from the word go that you'd made up your mind prior to posting (from a raw emotional point of view rather than a basis on anything factual). You clearly weren't ever interested in anyone else's perspective and more to the point weren't really reading or responding to what anyone else was saying or had said on the topic at hand, which is why in that context your postings didn't come across as very solid or reasoned (and at most times demonizing, hurtful, with out cause or reason and assigning ill-intents and motives sans basis) in my perspective.




Ah but you did agree to the TOS, and they have adjusted stipends for premium and basic users alike in the past and just recently. Your contract with LL is the TOS and the CS, neither of which guarantee you a stipend of any stripe.

That said, and as has been said repeatedly, they aren't likely to remove stipends completely, they need to retain a infusion point for new lindens into the economy of SL. Regulating that inward flow is what will cause a retention of value for your stipend and maintain your purchasing power to a certain degree. You see dear, the point is that the linden's value has been married to the USD since GOM came along, its central to the SL economy now that is the simply reality, whether you chose to accept it or not.

Whether you chose to utilize or even recognize the economy in SL and that aspect of it for personal gain (by the by, it's still personal gain even if you don't cash out, like me, it allows you to trade value for value in-world, but ultimately that value is currently tied to the USD) nor does it negate the simple reality that the USD is tied to the linden (the existence of the lindex as well as the other money markets make that fact), neither does the fact that what drives this economy is a value for value system and by virtue of simply existing within it you are a part of it.

Unless you opt out entirely and barter-trade your goods and services with others of like minds sans lindens, but if you are using the lindens you are in the system like it or no. The really wonderful thing about SL though, is no one is forcing you to even be that involved in the system you can opt out at any time and still have a fab time.

In any event I don't think you're a fool Wilhelm, I do think you're reacting from an emotional place without really having taken the entire picture into account and are a bit to quick to pull the trigger on demonizing those whom may have differing perspectives than your own (again borne from that emotional place I'd imagine).