people who rely on stipend recipients for business

I'm thinking a combination of premiums (who are not land owners with lower monthly fees) having to use Lindex a lot more, in combination with the continual infusion of free accounts having to do the same. It'll probably balance out and start to compensate for the loss of premium payments soon enough.

Very well put.

And players likely would not feel that their backs are to the wall just because people raised their prices. They could either buy or not buy.

The reason players feel their backs are to the wall is that those wanting to sell their Lindens for higher value want to take away people's stipends to do so.

What do you expect?

coco

Why would premium account owners who are not land owners have to use Lindex 'a lot more'?

The L$ 2 k they are short of will cost them ~$6. Out of this, LL gets $0.30 (currency purchase fee) ... so, LL gets 30 cents extra a month at best, except such user has no longer reason to pay for premium, and can move down to basic level. Meaning, overall LL loses $9.65 over such deal. Less if they were on longer payment plan.


Same thing like with premium account. You make basic account receive L$200 less a month. If they want to get that through Lindex, this _may_ generate 30 cents a month for LL... unless basic member was already buying currency. As then they simply increase amount they're buying by L$200, and LL still gets the same fixed 30 cents payment.

edit: oh yeah, on seller's end that extra L$200 will generate extra 2 cents of monthly revenue. whee.

(Sorry to reply as I read along here, but the web site is being very slow.)

I can just as easily turn around and say all those very same things to the people worried about the falling value of the Linden dollar on Lindex.

To paraphrase your words:

Anyone who complains about the falling value of the Linden and their financial situation is a selfish prat. Anyone with a high-end computer and broadband access who claims they can't spare the extra money to pay the tier that their profits may no longer cover is lying.

Anyone claiming they need to have the Linden dollar at such-and-such a value because no one else could or would provide the fabulous content they do is a conceited maggot. Creating content in SL is optional; making money off it is a want, not a need, and nobody should claim SL residents owe them a living.

Your cash profits from a computer game are not guaranteed nor are they your birthright.

coco

Obviously it recompenses the peope they bought things from, as those people turn around and sell the Lindens they received.

coco

I have to disagree with you Yumi, as you fly around the grid it seems pretty obvious to me that more people would rather let their individualism flow than follow the herd. Everyone and their brother complains about SL being too chaotic and looking like a junkyard; it is the creativity and individual expression of the residents is what makes it that way. The only places that have a homogenized look are the areas that have zoning. If you are only keeping to a regular circle of friends I would imagine that you are all going to be wearing top designer duds and not going too far outside your sphere of style when you go to parties. I think people take more pride in being able to build their own house (which, frankly, is NOT that hard to do well - clothing is much more difficult.) I also disagree that SL is a social game at heart, everyone gets something different out of SL and social activities are only part of the package. Certainly there are plenty of residents who want to play a little game of one-up-manship and always have the most expensive outfit, newest hair, ect. but to say that describes a majority of SL players goes a little far, in my opinion.

Good heavens, Yumi! Everybody has to start somewhere. It doesn't take two years to learn how to make something, and anyway, mechanics are only part of making things like houses - style is another part, and that's individual, something you develop for yourself whether you want to or not!

But you can't know that until you start making things. Not only would it not be "rude" for you to start making them, you would be surprised at how many people will like your style and want to buy it!

It's art, and art isn't just about years put in, and is never about what someone else's art is like.

coco

I referring to many people, Musuko, not just you.

And you, Musuko, surrounded by the same luxuries of modern life are whining because people don't want to buy your fictional currency at the price you want to set.

Pot and kettle are both black here.

firstly you were one of those people in front of the governors house trying to make a clear point that stipends should be disposed of by burning them were you not? therefore one can only conclude you are trying to perpetuate the idea and lobby LL to do just that dispose of them

secondly i agreed to pay LL 10 bucks a month for a membership that would provide me with a weekly allowance to cover my ingame expenses. I did not however agree to spend more on top of that for Lindens but you a player seems to want me to. YOur lobbying for it telling me if i dont want to buy the lindens then i must not really "need" something. That's pretty obvious to me what your gunning for.

you try to use examples of other games where is completely unacceptable to sell game currency or accounts as an example. Here is acceptable and i find it neat but i seem to remember getting a lecture ingame from you about "runnig a business in LL costs real world money" you used that as a reason to try to strengthen lindens by removing stipends. Now i think you are backstepping a bit but its still pretty obvious from your posts that your motivation is to try to stimulate buying and spending more money in this game then just on land server fees and the premium membership in USD. Well i think you will get a huge surprise if you do manage to get LL to do things your way that this won't be happening because believe it or not for various reasons people simply wont be doing it. They might probably however if loosing a bonus of a premium membership which did make it meaniful downgrade to basic dump all their land and spend less at your shops or even worse leave the game altogether leaving the elite few who want to strenthen this lindex and dollar that at massive MAJORITY of the player base doesn't even know exists standing there with even more ghost towns and less customers.

So instead of trying to instigate and burn lindens and all that malarky why dont you do something good with it like stick it on a money tree (the reason why they were created) spend it on someone elses business, go to a club, gamble i dont care. Obviously if you are trying to get rid of you stipend its dispossable income to you so spend it like it is or sell it on the lindex whatever. But these methods of demonstrating and burning lindens in public is well an attempt to draw attention for some reason. The regular person with a logical brain seeing a group burning lindens in front of the governors house and trying to swing others to do so as well is going to draw the obvious conclusion that you want LL to get rid of them. If this is not your motivation then i think you need to find something else to do with them and not make public demonstrations.

realize that i would not be a premium member if those little built in bonuses weren't there i would be a basic member and still not be buying lindens and be playing a second game where i didn't ahve to buy currency.

in short the methods being used presently by those lobbying and you are one of them unless i got the name wrong is to create a panic and draw attention to yourself. In the end with your new plan your going to win because i can't afford to place ads in the messanger yet because i am "a little person" still only about 45 days old so your noise making power just might get you what you want.

I will then join my friends as a basic member and stop buying. YOu will loose yet another customer and then come to these boards screaming about the economy again. Now the only reason i can see that people are presently putting their prices up in this game is to try to make money using USD. At first when is started selling items i was matching those prices thinking this was the ingame norm for this stuff. Then this week i see these posts. What you want to do is make a buck so your using the lindex and raising your prices to make the same amount of real world money to cash out. I went back to my vendors and lowered my prices because i realized i was overpricing my stuff because the rate of inflation was being gauged in this game by the amount of money you can get by selling lindens.

Guess what happened when i did that? one guess when i lowered my prices down to a less horrendous rate? I MADE 1K that day previous days i was making maybe 50 lindens. So stop trying to make money and you just might actualy make some

stop trying to create a state of panic with public lindens burnings and stop the lobbying to take features away from premium account members because they signed up with the understanding they would get those features.

your points lack logic and thought and i think you need to go back and think about it. I downloaded the free trial tried is out read all the information and made a decisino based on the packages being sold by Linden Labs not your wants and needs

okay so if you dont understand what i am saying now i guess my writing really sucks

a) don't try to lobby to remove premium account bonuses in an effort to force people to buy lindends it won't work - yes public lindens burnings does give that message!
b) stop trying to create a panic state - also wont work it causes hatred - again with the lobbying it will cause this
c) stop trying so danged hard to match the USD - stop saying lindens wil soon be worthless and refering to the usd value of them..


oh well i'm done in more ways then one

Exactly. Currently, my house is a simple 3-prim freebie I picked up, and was planning on having it there only temporarily until I could build one that resembled where I am IRL (it's a very interesting style that happens to be perfect for the shape of my plot).

Unfortunately, I tend to give things attention only when I want, and I decided to have an IN-GROUND pool (dug out and using the sim's waterline) because not many people seem to have those. Toss in a couple of those freebie splashing water prims (merely for the particle splashes, as they're invisibly-textured), and I suddenly found my little two-room house has become a fixture...

Unless, of course, I get another 256m² tacked on to one end of my plot, this planned build of mine is toast. Probably wouldn't look TOO great anyway, as I tend to focus on the details more than the big things, making my types of building suited for smaller objects.


And no, I came into SL, and on the first day, began trying my hand at building objects. Hell, I still even have a copy of that first object. It may not be anything to look at from afar, or even up-close, but damnit, I triedand that's more than can be said for some of you 'content creators' bitching about how you'll 'never stack up to <so-and-so>'...

And to think I've never touched a 3D modeling program...

Um, my reasoning for this is same as for why LL made basic accounts free. Cut the monthly fee, you increase the user base. Cut it even more, even more users join (cut land tier to $5 a month from $10, without stippends, and land ownership will grow too). More people = more trading = more money. I'm a free account. I get paid $200l a month. I contributed over $140us to LL by just selling and buying curency. All in one week. True, most people can't do that for LL, but still

No she wasn't. I was right there with her, we were protesting protesters (i.e. both sides mostly because it amused me and I dragged her along). ^.^

We don't have a pony in this race because we realize ultimately LL will do what is best for LL's bottom line regardless of anyone's input, protests or anything else. As is proper for a business to do. They'll do what they feel needs to be done and if the freedom of economy still exists it will seek its own level and correct accordingly, business owners will adapt or not, just as like the rest of the SL population, no one is forcing anyone to do anything.



Well, why not. You've been splendidly wrong so far. ^.^




You aren't even really reading what she's posted at this point are you? It seems you're replying to your own posts and wandering off on emotionally charged tirades of your own creation.


Seems to me she was trying to break down how a economy functioned (whether in Rl or on a platform the basic principles don't alter) and your sense of entitlement is getting in the way of digesting that. *shrugs* ^.^

Hey, think of it this way if some corrections to the size of the L$ pool aren't made, more sinks or less infusions, then your treasured 500 Lindens a week in six months time wont be worth what 10 Lindens are currently. So you'll have in effect lost your stipend anyway. Thats the bottom line, not enough Linden sinks and a geometric increase in the inflow of Lindens (thats why they removed basic stipends for new basics, but there is still a huge glut of lindens in pool which needs to be stabilized to maintain a viable economy, not only for creators but users to whom 500 lindens (roughly 60 cents a week USD) seems to mean so much).

You could tier down to a basic and use that 10$ USD a month you spend on your premium and use it to purchase on the lindex and at the going rates come out with over 2k+ what you'd have been getting in stipends under the premium plan. Wont mean much if that 4k+ isn't worth what 1K is now though would it?

I think Fade and others have had a really interesting idea, in the form of the complete elimination of the premium account as a whole. It's stipends, land benefits, et al in conjunction with the replacement of the current tier system. A new per meter tiering system could be adopted which would then be open to all users (and a lot more fair as it'd remove the tier levels and allow owning just what a user would actually use as opposed to forcing them up one level of tier and price range for the potential want of another 1000 square meters of server space) would likely be the best course.

Then all the lindens would need to do would be a scaled stipend infusion of L$s as needed and we'd not have to worry about either a glut in the money pool or rapid devaluation of the linden with run away inflation.

Anyway your milage may vary, we'll still be out there protesting both burning stipends and stipend-saving or cute kitty placard carriers, or any other protesters whom show up... maybe even ourselves!!

Free entertainment, best bit about SL don't have t'spend a dime to have fun! ^.^

I was there protesting protests. But seeing as the rest of your post is simply ranting about what you think I said or did... well, I see this isn't going to be terribly productive.

Yes, I'm "gunning" for a balanced economy. Evil, I know, but it's in my nature.

The volume of trade on the LindeX strongly suggests that the majority not only know it is there, but have been using it.

Becasue putting the L$ on a money tree doesn't do anything about thier declining value. Your conclusion seems to be based on an emotional response to an idea rather than a reading of what I've had to say so far.

Feel free. SL isn't going to be for everyone, that's just how life is. You should be playing a game that gives you fun and relaxation in return for your money.

Or maybe it's to stabilise the market so that no one has to raise prices and so that those getting a tipend can attach a stable and meaningful value to it.

The fact that you had overpriced your product and found that an adjustment was nessesary... is relevant how?

This is where you attribute thigs to me that are flatly untrue.

See, the point of my selling in a luxury economy is for me to fill other's wants and needs in exchange for a little value. You can stop going on about how you don't have to buy from me and how no one owes me a thing. I'm very clear on that, always will be. I'm not deluded into having an entitlement state of mind and I'd prefer others stop trying to make that claim of me.

I actually want only a stable economy. Stipends will never, ever be removed. They are a nessesary part of how SL's economy functions. I say again, stipends will never be removed.

And the LindeX has allready married the USD to the L$. As the value of the L$ drops, the value of you stipend drops. The elasticity of this luxury economy has meant that folks can sit and absorb this for a long time, but there will come a point where prices will nudge upward... and more... and some more... and then you will wish you had taken advantage of the chance to hav the economy adjusted. Or you and others will throw up thier hands in disgust and leave.

A stable economy is in everyone's best interest.

And style, and expression of style, also takes time to develop. Indeed, it probably takes more time to develop, and is harder to develop, than SL's brand of 3D modelling.



I'm not talking about asking people to buy the stuff I made. What I'm talking about is: I'm a member of the group which includes an experienced builder who has built an area where the group meet. If I build an area, then it won't be as good, and it's rude for me to try and get the group to meet there just because it's my area when there is a better built area readily available for them. If this happens to apply to all the groups I'm in, there's no point me building any area at all, since there is no-one but me to use it and if it's just me I can just build it in Blender or Doga or something.



Art is also about the idea that there's some people who just can't be artists.

Right, exactly - some people would probably rather not put work into something that people are going to "complain about".



Not at all. Nobody really cares about who the designers of things are, and I see different styles all the time. But there are still "high quality" and "low quality" within every style, and there's no motivation for me to create anything if all it would do is let me become low quality.



I don't think you can make universal statements like that at all. Everyone has different views on everything. I've done scripts in half-an-hour before that some people thought were impossible - and then they've been surprised when I tell them that I thought the build that they did in half-an-hour was impossible.



It's not about "always being the best", it's about "not being the worst". If, in your perception, everyone else in a group is better than you, it's very uncomfortable - even if that isn't the other people's perception. Well, I find that anyway. But what I mean by SL being a social game is that essentially the big benefit it offers is the ability to connect to others. You can build interactive 3D worlds in all kinds of existing packages that cost less - what makes SL different is that you can get other people involved in them. But, if the other people don't want to be involved in them..

So far I have seen artists, architects, vehicle designers, fashion clothing designers, hair dressers, coders of ever kind, gamblers, escorts, bankers, investors, real estate developers and agents, group/meeting moderators, police officers, book/comic publishers, and gamers ranging from fps players, to RPG players, to pretty much everything else. I'm sure there are many many more SL professions that I have missed. Most of those can make money through their professions, too. I'm surprised people are so concerned about the lack of stuff to do on here.

You forgot "...and remind me of how much of an utter crap my stuff can be"
Believe me, I know how you feel >.<

There's lots of different things available but that doesn't mean everyone can do all of them, or even any of them.

lmao well then you put your head in where it doesn't belong then how can you protest protesters and feel you make sense your the type of person i take least seriously of all

anyhow i know what i heard and it sickened me i got lectured about how much real world money it takes to run a business etc

anyhow go ahead and protest protesters one of the most useless and silliest things i have seen to date

tie yourself to a linden tree while your at it you've just proven how absurd this really is

like i said i am done i got an earful last night and one of the most vocal was one from your group and i really enjoyed the linden economy lecture

but meh whatever

looks to me like you tried to stoke a fire and cause a heated discussion i stay away from your kind whenever possible you are neither here nor there but love to try to stir things up

anyhow as i said before i have nothing more useful to add and i am pretty much done at this point i think that the anti protest protesters are causing more trouble then the linden burners with their wierdo views on why i pay 10 bucks a month for a game

does the word "trouble maker" mean anything to you

yeah i'm nto reading the content of your posts any longer just reading the first line guess what you still wanted to try to start something on this board whether you realize it or not

your the one that gave me the lecture about it taking money to runa business in sl i saw you standing there telling coco about how wrong her views were but were there just to protest protesters? so why did you show up to throw fuel on the fire?

meh your nuts is all i can say

when you read this post see the definitino of flamebait because that is what your doing on this board i might as well toss some in of my own for good measure..


i will remind you what you said then here and ask you if you dont thnk your trying to start something because you are so tell me again that you weren't taking sides? hah you have been one of the most vocal ones in this thread attempting to feed a fire and getting upset when someone comments on it by the looks of it

>>>>>>>>>>>Originally Posted by Jillian Callahan

I'm curious though: Seeing as having a premium account is buying L$ with real world money... er... how do you reconcile that with saying that you won't buy L$ with real world money?<<<<<<<<<<

your words not mine..

fishing were you possibly for something?

You never adresses a dingle point, just dismissed Mem and I for having a sense of humor.
You are not worth talking to.

yup i am because you go and protest protesters

like the way you edit the words and attempt to put them in my mouth

let me know when you have respect for me because quite honestly i found the majority of your posts rude, condescending and an attempt at fishing and you dont seem to like the answers i give you as your not satisfied (see words "rambling" and "clap trap"

perhaps i dont meet your stringent board posting criteria ( see definition of "flamebait"

so yup i only answered parts let me know when you want to stop fishing stop protesting about protesting and trying to cause trouble

so the answer to the main question of why i pay linden labs 10 bucks and wont buy lindens is ... go search for it its in there...

so are all the rest you just dont like them

your pretty opinionated about this stuff for someone who is not taking sides finds it funny and is here to protest protesters...

what i find even more humourous is the fact that you can find me funny but i can't find you funny when you post that crap (see phrase "double standard" come down from that pedestal before you fall off..

Well, I don't believe you have a crystal ball.

And in point of fact, the basic stipends HAVE been removed.

A stable economy isn't going to do much good if there aren't people willing to purchase all their Lindens to buy our goods.

Raise your prices all you like. Who cares?

But LL should not remove or even reduce stipends. None of the cuts they have made so far has done any good anyway, as far as the Linden value is concerned. Event stipends, basic stipends gone for new players, D.I., dwell, going away, ratings bonuses, bonuses for getting new players - all have gone away, and the value of the Linden keeps going down.

There is a lot to be said for pumping the economy, and pumping player enthusiasm. For giving people a reason to provide entertainment, for instance.

There's not a lot to be said for constantly making SL a harder place for people to enjoy, whether or not they wish to create anything.

I said it a year ago, and I'll say it again: Those who worship the economy to the exclusion of all else throw the baby away with the bathwater. It's like the blind man that feels only the trunk of the elephant. You are just completely overlooking the psychology of the whole thing.

And so far, all that economy worshiping and all those cuts one after another haven't done us - or the value of the Linden - just a whole lot of good.

coco

We can argue forever about this, Yumi (and probably will!). I'll tell ya, it's really just as simple as you either do it or you don't. You give it a good try or you don't. If one thing doesn't work out, you try another - or you don't.

You don't know what you have to offer to a group until you make it and offer it. For all you know, they would love to have a variety of places to meet! And who says you have to do things with a group, anyway.

If kids were born with that attitude, no one would ever do anything again! It would have already all been done, and well done. In SL, same thing - there would be room for only one clothing designer - everybody would say, "Well, she's the best, so I'm not going to buy from anyone else."

If you don't WANT to do something, that's entirely different. But "No use trying, look at the competition," isn't at all valid. As I've said before, there's room for all kinds of talent.

coco

And I dont' belive you ever took economics.

Some have, not all. Stipends are a part of how the system works, they are nessesary becasue the economy has significant sinks. They are likely to get adjusted but can not be removed. This isn't supersition, it's fact.

Winge whinge whinge. The recent cuts haven't had time to have any effect. Previous cuts did make a difference.

I am a liberal. If it were up to me I'd make it so we all just made stuff for others to play with in a big utopian existance where we really were free of real life pressures. But I can't figure out how to get around the fact that LL needs money to continue and that it takes content providers to make SL into a broadly interesting place... reality has this ugly way of requiring effort and resources. So instead I want to go for the next best thing, and that's a *stable economy* that allows SL to grow.

People have already proven willing to purchace L$. Market volume is evidence as are folks spending real money on premium accounts.

Again, I ask you to tell me what the actual psychology of your conclusions are. Yesterday all you did was say "I want", and where that does stem from psychology that does not explain it. Ahter all, I want to have my stipend cover all my expenses too - doesn't mean it's going to happen.