Buyer Beware!!!!

it would allow you to scale up your business and give you incentive to offer more diverse services.

I know what I read Jauani. And I find your comments amusing considering the layout of the more recent islands of your beloved friend are no different to mine. That's what plot shapes do to islands. You make a choice, either make exotically shaped islands and allow no terraforming, or not. But I guess they're different, just because or something.

then you are an illiterate.



no actually, i'm pretty disappointed with that. i think azure offers the best deal right now. my "beloved friend" does insure that i hightech platforms don't show up next to victorian houses, next to pirate coves, next to giant castles. she offers immersion into a theme, which people are ready to pay money for.

if you were more proactive you could sell tickets to your own amusement park. but if rather than emulating success, you're more comfortable complaining about it in the forum, have a blast. keep in mind no one is going to remember in a year or two when hiro land is 40 sims and dreamland is 500.

here are links to all my edited posts.

#27

#101

was it one of those?

Gee, Blaze, its not just excusable. Its downright desirable. It's absolutely ok for anyone to invent any sort of informal contract they like, and invite residents to accept it.

The only thing thats not ok is to induce residents to take it up by using misleading language implying it is the same as a special, long established, formal contract, honored by the servers, the software, the documentation, and the platform owner.

I don't think anyone is objecting to anyone DOING it. Just to how they DESCRIBE it.

Adding more and more explanatory notecards is applying plasters to an unnecessary wound inflicted by the plasterer in the first place.

Just use a different word, like "lease" meaning a tradeable one. One which can be assigned to a new tenant who has bought it from the old tenant. Until recently, for example, well over 20% of property in the UK was bought and sold under such arrangements. Almost all condominiums or blocks of "flats". Usually on a 99-yr lease.

It's a well fitting metaphor. Confusion quartered at a stroke. Ambiguity eliminated. Why would anyone resist ? Why indeed !

Here's why. From someone at the sharp end of it day by day.:

/130/d2/71747/6.html#post749948
and
/130/d2/71747/6.html#post749975

Thats it. That's why the terminology is obfuscated and fought over. Particularly at the beginning in the fight to expand fastest. Commercial advantage. I defy any of you to refute it - it's so darned obvious.

I wasn't complaining Jauani, I was defending a friend here. And yes, I agree they have made a superb job of Azure, I can't knock that. Most people would pay for land away from clubs and malls period. UYeh some also prefer heavier zoning too.

As for the last paragraph, well I'll just say it says a whole lot about you as a person Jauani.

ellie, why don't you lead by example?

Ellies business.
c:"so you are selling me this land?"
e:"no, noone is selling land. LL can "sell" you land. i'm selling you a lease, although i'm uncomfortable with this word, i feel it is more applicable than sell or "sell." "
c:"so you are renting me the land?"
e:"no, noone can rent you land because noone owns the land. i could "rent" you land, but i'm going to "lease" it to you."
c:"i'm confused. i thought you said you were going to sell me a lease."
e:"yes, but it's not really leasing, i'm not comfortable with that, it's just the best word i could find. so instead of leasing, i will be "leasing" you the land."
c:"ok i'll think about it. i'm going to check out hiro's and anshe's land. they use less quotes when they talk."

a:"hi, i will sell you this land for this price. keep in mind this is different from buying land from LL so your support for this land, billing, and its resale will be provided by me and my employees."

h:"do you want to use land without a front end cost? sign at the dotted line. i'll handle any support issues that you have in regards to your tenancy here. sign quickly because my business model does not allow me to keep up with the ravenous demand."

so ellie, while you are pontificating the meaning of being with a nooby, hiro and anshe have closed deals based on agreed upon meaning with their customers.

yeah because i make it part of my weekly routine to come blast my competitors on the land and economy forum.

Do you know anything about what happens in my sims? A HUGE percentage of them have become more like friends. They are welcome to IM me at any time, and many do almost daily. And yes, I even answer EVERY single offline message. Is that bad service? Either you have something at stake here, or you're just generally a very unhappy person in life lol.

Well you certainly have a chip on your shoudler, that's for sure.

WTF ? Why this endless, endless ad hominem ?

I don't have any involvement in this business, other than having watched in close detail how it grew from LL's initiating mistake. Which was changing the "about land" interaction to allow island plot deeding (and therefore renting) before stopping the rentals from accidentally appearing in the "for sale" list. They just didn't realise it would happen.

Every move from then on, every step, every exhortation, defence, every accusation in the forums. I was there. Under one other name at first, but it was me.

I think my lack of personal involvement in the trade gives me more right to speak, if anything. I have nothing to gain, nothing to lose. I observe, comment, act from pure principle.

Not quite pure of course, because once we get involved in debate it's hard to prevent ego sticking its ugly head in just a little way. But I work hard to recognise it, squash it back down, and prevent it perverting my logic. I think I do no worse than most.

PS I'm afraid I dont recognise your little playlet as representing my views at all after about the first line. Sorry. I'm perfectly happy about people being rented land. Or entering into a myriad other contracts, calling these contracts whatever they like that doesnt involve misleading presentation. Entirely quote free if the names are unambiguous. What are you talking about?

hiro, i never said you gave bad service. you really need to stop getting so emotional and read carefully. i have previously posted in this very thread that i have many friends who are happy residents of your sims.

while you represent yourself as a serious business person in SL, anyone who stops to look at the numbers can see that land renting is not a scaleable business. you might offer great service, and that is at the cost of your business earning wage like returns. this limits how fast you can grow and what kind of services you can offer.

it is completely unfair for you to attack other businesses that use different business plans to offer different services. particularly those who try to create sustainable and scaleable businesses in sl, because that is not even in the ball park of what you do. it is different. rather than allowing for differences, you argue regularly that it should all be the same. implicit to that is SL should be held back because hobby business people can't keep up with fulltime business people.

similarly unfair is ellie pleading it is so unfair that to the forum how it is just unjust that your business cannot compete with another business. it is simply ridiculous. that is like sports franchises crying about being in small markets.

is it a secret that i have a stake? i am a passionate secondlife resident with a small but substantial share in cyberland. both give me a stake in the future of second life. the terms that are set today will define the future development of SL. anyone who thinks it's just about rent barons vs sell barons then your imagination is very limited. its not at all about the business people and their personal, it's about the options that they can offer and that they can offer them in a sustainable reliable way. it is about the consumer.

i would love to move my second life off grid to a neighbourhood that has nice infrastructure like azure, and guarenteed theme like dreamland. sure i would love it at low low costs like your sims, but that is hardly a possibility. the only way i can get that kind of place is if there is an incentive for someone to provide it. and you fight regularly in the forum to take that incentive away.

Well I am not attacking other business models period. I have asked LL straight up countless times if I am able to sell plots of private estate. Every time it has been no, and was even told they do not want them even positioned as sales. All I want Jauani is fair for all, that's all. For everyone to be playing by the rules. The day LL support it is the day I will upscale and sell plots also. And I am sure it will also be the start of many other new healthy businesses. It would actually be very healthy for SL if that happened.

To achieve this costs no more in either money or time than what I offer. I just do not have as much call for zoning so specific.

J - are you being deliberately obtuse ? I don't see Hiro doing anything close to that. He is simply objecting to misleading descriptions of an offered contract. Misleading descriptions which he feels morally unable to employ himself. Which moral compunction has put him at a huge disadvantage to the less scrulupulous competition, who has visibly expanded much faster because of it.

He is obeying LL's rulings, and suffering for it every day. He wants a level playing field, where these marginal business practices are either stopped, or blessed and regularised so that he is on an equal footing without compromising his principles.

I hope I have that correct, Hiro. It's certainly my view.

But please stop misrepresenting other peoples positions, J, and then attacking these easy-to-beat straw-men you have thus set up.

It doesn't wash, and it's not that smart.

I should warn you, I for one am getting bored with this. If you don't see it, you don't see it. What more is there to say ?

then hiro, i can make two comments on this.

1> what i said to alliez earlier - this issue would be taken up with LL, that there are players selling land against LL's rules. actions speak louder than words and LL's actions seem to indicate it's ok. i can only speculate their words do not because they are afraid to embolden potential scammers.

2> you should concentrate your energies on pushing LL to develop a system offers more incentives to run zoned and theme communities to your own benefit and to the benefit of the greater community rather than using those energies to detract from the communities already in place.

i envision a SL where 3rd parties like yourself can have the same land controls as lindens do presently and can bill players directly, focusing your energies on content and community as opposed to platform development as LL must.

ditto

Here we can perhaps all agree. This unfortunate situation is, at least now, largely LL's fault for failing to make a more aggressive ruling and enforce it.

Its interesting to wonder why they let us flail about in this mire, with only their words to guide us, and no action when these words are defied.

It's part of a broader picture I think, of a growing policy of dis-involvement prior to eventually casting us loose as the metaverse. Like mom just stating her position quietly when asked, but otherwise letting the kids squabble until they find a way of resolving their disagreements.

Growing up's painful, innit ? And some sisters maybe get away with murder, eh ?

Oh...what the heck - who cares anyway. *big hug*

Lets go find something newer, and more fun, to enjoy arguing about, eh ?
This one's about worn out for now.

Lesbian abortion in Iraq, anyone ?

how about "bringing back the general forum?"

Well, this is true. I want to believe that I own. I also want to believe that when I decide to move, I can sell the land that I own, and keep the proceeds.

That is because . . . I can!

coco

"Sell leases" - I like that!

I think that is finally some terminology I could get behind. Not "lease," mind you - but "sell leases."

And as I see from your last paragraph, you understand my reasoning in wanting to buy.

coco

OMG, Coco, is it that simple to reach agreement, after all this time? "Sell leases" is what I thought I had been proposing for months. We just need the two words right next to each other like that ? Yes ..... abso-blooming-lutely....a market buying and selling leases. Land ownership (Linden-wise) unchanged. Lease sold to new occupier.

Pheeeewww. What a genuine relief *hug* *hug* *hug*

Well . . . yeah! lol At least as far as I'm concerned.

Now you gotta convince the Lindens to look at it that way, though, rather than just giving pat answers about how it's all renting.

And while you're at it, convince them to give the sellers more tools.

And then convince the sellers to adopt the new nomenclature, etc.

Looks to me like you still got a long road to hoe!

coco

Yeah, I find that really the interesting conversation here.


For me, it's not so much what Anshe or Ginko or Hiro is doing - they're just doing what's natural to them.

What I find interesting is how LL is writing the rules or not writing the rules to the game.