A challenge to Land Barons

This is childish.
You aren't prevented from anything, except possibly by your own laziness...
When I wanted to expand on my land, I did my homework, and my legwork. I lived in the air with property lines turned on. And many of the better deals I got were from 'land barons'. In many cases, I saw the original price of the bigger lot the parcel I wanted was split from, and once you factor in tier, there's not that much of a margin there. If there had been, I would have bought the bigger lot myself and chopped it up. I had the money and the opportunity. For the most part, the 'land barons' are looking for a quick turnover before the tier destroys their profit margin... so they price their land quite competitively... nothing like the figures you are putting forward.
Take some time, be patient... start buying small lots that are close together... eventually the dots will join and you will end up with what you want. As others have said, talk to your neighbours, check the land sales frequently... good deals don't stick around waiting especially for you.
One more point... when I've felt the price was a bit too high... I have successfully negotiated a better price from 'land barons'. Sometimes all you have to do is ask nicely .

Hi Lewis.

I must say I find the timing of this thread a bit strange. Land is at an all time low right now. You can get flat, mature, green land at 3.9 to 4.5L$ per meter currently (versus 5.9 and up a few weeks ago). As someone who has watched that land list for years, trust me on this, it's bargain basement prices right now.

I suspect that the driving factors behind these low prices are:

- The announcement of the sim blocks.

- The reaction to that announcement by some barons who panicked and dumped a shitload of land at rock bottom prices.

Now, I am a bit perplexed at the sim block announcement myself, there is land-a-plenty out there already, however, it is (in my mind) the reason that land is so damned cheap at the moment. In fact, it can be had at STARTING auction prices.

I am going to have to agree with the posters who are beseeching you to do your homework.

that's right lewis, i have been spending most of my second life spying on you to se who your friends are.

1> i own about 60k m2.
2> last week

now answer my questions...... lewis.............

1> do you know how to use the search tool?
2> do you know anything about economics?

i'm just trying to figure out whether you have any valid relevant input for this discussion or whether you are just trying to singlehandedly coerce the sl land market to give lewis cheap land.

If it's so very little effort, why don't you simply go buy the land, cut it up and sell it yourself and keep you choice 4096 plot. Line your own pockets like they do?

The benefit they provide is the buying and maintaining of that land, and division of it, and the handling of sales/rental of it and any associated risk.

As well as providing benefit to LL, who gets someone to pay them to do work they would otherwise have to pay an employee to do.

The benefit to LL is they key here, as the simple existance of this world, all content and avatars and everything that takes place in it only exist to benefit LL. Benefit to anyone else including users is secondary and only exists if it contributes to the benefit of LL in an indirect manner.

Yes I know how the land search tool works, it sucks, it's unfriendly, but I did look.

What do I know about economics? Probably as much as the average person who's just trying to enjoy themselves in a game.



My suggestions would open up cheap land to anyone and everyone in game, so it's not just me I'm thinking of; it benefits 99% of the community, ie those who aren't land barons.

No, I don't know how hard or time consuming terraforming is any more than what I've done on my own raising and lowering of levels - I'd be glad to try if anyone feels like giving me acces to a larger parcel for a couple of weeks.

Lewis

Great idea except that I can't afford to buy the land in the first place, which is what sparked the entire thread.

Lewis

Lewis, the land list is open to all, and there is currently a shit load of land to be had at prices STARTING at the same rate as that which LL starts their auctioned parcels at (those that are abandoned, returned to LL, and then subsequently listed on the auction page). At this time your argument is uneducated and wholly unfounded. Go look at the land list. Really look, without the notion of defending your argument here at the front of your mind.

Edited to add: I just got an island at 4.3L$ per meter squared a few minutes ago. I realize that an island is not what you are looking for, but waterfront is a good way to take the pulse of the market, and if I can find an island for 4.3/m2, you can find flat roadisde even cheaper.

Your suggestion needs to include details about how Linden Labs makes enough money to stay in business since that is important to 100% of the community.

Considering they'd be making the money directly, instead of selling to a Land Baron and having idle sims sitting waiting to be used up, that would help.

But most of my ways for LL to make more money are based around other things, like restricting the free accounts so that people pay to play, rather than leech off the rest of us which is what's currently happening. A month is more than enough to decide whether you like the game enough to be a paid member (TSO gives you 2 weeks, other games give you less).

Stopping people cashing out L$ would also help; after all if you're playing a game play the game, if you're trying to make a real life living, that's what reality is for.

But those are for other threads.

Lewis

View/Property Lines... fly around... properties outlined in orange are for sale.

I don't seem to see how "ineffective" the land sales system is in SL. There's a search where you can specify the amount you're willing to pay and the size you're looking for. What the heck else do you need?

The "two-months-trying-to-sell-land" bit is true, but it's not due to an ineffective system. It's more likely due to the vast amount of land for sale and people searching sequentially in the large database of land for sale.
Not even the barons escape this. I used to own some land (which I sold and tiered down to basic membership due to Impeach Bush Guy - but that's another topic) on a sim that had several plots for sale by Anshecorp. This land has not been sold yet for several months. And that was when the view was unubstructed by *cough*"free speech"*cough*.
When I put my land for sale, it was sitting there for two months and NOBODY even IMed me about it.... going for 60% of the actual land value in the area. I IMed Anshe and she bought it. I've visited some time later and it's still for sale.
I SURE THANK ANSHE CORP FOR HAVING GOTTEN THAT OFF MY BACK.

My 1.5 cents.

Dinova, are you sure you put it up for 60% of the value of the land? That sounds like a great deal and I can't imagine people passing it up for that long, especially with the ease of the search engine. Were you completely surrounded by Impeach Bush signs on the side of a PG snow cliff or something?

I do think it's going to be a buyers market for the near term. With _how many_ sims going online in a short time?

I only have the noob plot now, but I've been considering buying some real land and I'm waiting for the glut of sims to hit the market and drive the prices down before I take the plunge.

I mean ineffective as in it's not detailed enough. For the search system to be even semi useful, it would be useful to have:

Search PG / Mature / All.

Search Snow/Grass/Beach/Any

Roadside/Waterside/Any

Flat/Hillside/Any


Something that would also be useful would be instead of just "price less than" and "size greater than", to have a "between" facility - so that when you want that 3500-4500 sqm PG flat grass roadsite plot that costs between L$20,000 and L$30,000 ...... you don't spend hours searching.

Obviously the land rating would be picked up automatically, no doubt the lot type could be also set automatically, and the seller picks the last two by two mouse clicks when they set the land for sale. It's really not that time consuming to add into the sale routing, and I'm pretty sure that they're not difficult database queries to code in either. The only thing that's difficult that's essential for this to work properly..... is for users to click a few right buttons. Hardly rocket science.

Lewis

SL is not a game.
Lewis 'land barons' are not the only people making a real life living in SL. There are others here making their RL living in all sorts of constructive, creative ways. Many of these people, and indeed, some of the people you would class as 'land barons' also return to the community in ways you may not realise. For instance, ever looked to see who owns the sandboxes we all use?
SL is a world, and many many talented people here work very hard. Why begrudge them a return on their labours?
I think your whole argument is based on a misconception. It falls into the same category as 'us newbies need to get a way to get free money by chopping wood/mining for gold/killing orcs/whatever'.

On the first topic - as soon as the land is auctioned, the buyer starts paying tier, so LL immediately gets money as opposed to sitting around waiting for plots to sell.

On the second - you talk alot about wanting to play your own game. How about letting everyone play their own game. If someone brings professional quality skills into SL and makes cool stuff that I want and they make a living off of it, more power to them. Reality includes SL.

Lewis, I think part of the reason you're getting such a negative reaction is that your original post came across somewhat antagonistic. I think if you had boiled your question down to your basic proposal (without including your personal feelings to begin with), the overall tone of this thread and subsequent ones might have been different.

I agree that the Land for sale function could use some improvement. The feature requests such as being able to search on PG or Mature, proxmity to a location, or keyword search - are worthwhile suggestions IMHO. I hope you follow up with those specific requests in a seperate thread. If you remain positive, and focus only on how those features benefit everyone - you're more likely to get favorable results.

In the meantime, there is a 3rd party site that might help you with your search:

If you use the in-game land sales tool to do a "Macro" search for parcels of interest - then plug those coordinates into Roamsearch to do a "Micro" search, you may get a lot of the extra detail you're looking for.

For example, I went to Roamsearch, and plugged into the search: "Isabel (54,236)"

When I clicked "Details", it came back with a map of the parcel, the owner, the sim rating, how long the current owner has owned the parcel, and its sales price.

Possibly this might be of use to you in your search?

I think its horrible I cannot look how I want without buy a skin from a 3rd part.
I cannot be taken serious as the hunk, I really am, looking as a newbie.
I do have the pride to wear a kick-ass skin but I cannot afford to pay 5000L for it.

I suggest that Lindenlab starts providing us with awsome skins for 100L, whcih we can sell back for 70L when we want to have a new look. This way one do not have to be sexually sufficated and depending on greedy skinmakers to look good....

Professional skills I have no problem with. We need more in game.

More money than sense, so you can make more money, I do have a problem with.

Lewis

You don't have to buy skins to do anything but you do need land if you want to build. As for 'sexually suffocated'... that's something my game definitely can cope without.

Lewis

Well if you can't cash out then a fair number of professionally skilled people are going to be at their job instead of making this their job.

My real objection to a lot of what you are saying though is the sense that I get that you think there is ONE TRUE WAY and it's yours. I think there is a lot of room for a lot of different ways here.

People like Anshe provide a service other people are willing to pay for. They also hire others in SL to do jobs. LL's model is outsourcing anything that is personnel intensive that can be handled 3rd party. That's not going to change as far as I can see.

When Ferran and I sold our 47K on the mainland to buy our island we used Anshe to broker the deal. We got a nicely priced island with all the transfer fees paid, $L above and beyond our island purchase price, she immediately took our previous land into her tier (saving us a quick USD 195) and she then parcelled up and sold that 47K. I'm sure she made a nice profit, but we did well in the deal too. Her part of the job was time intensive. Time I am happy to have saved.

As many have said, if you're willing to do the leg work you can get land at a reasonable cost. You just have to spend the time yourself. Also land is a lot cheaper than it was when we joined... a lot. Land was scarce and expensive then.

Land Barons are liable for tier on their purchased sims as soon as they buy them. If LL held all the land until it was purchased from them piecemeal, it would take them longer for LL to begin receiving tier fees on the land sold. That reduces--rather than increases--the income for LL. The economics are even worse for LL when you factor in the cost of paid employees to manage small parcel land sales.



That is the way LL used to run things. You got a seven-day trial, and then had to either sign up for a $9.95 one-time fee Basic account, or a monthly Premium account. Then they changed to the current system. Since usually business don't make changes in policy with an eye towards making LESS money, I think it is a good bet LL anticipates making more money with their current pricing plan.

As for free accounts "leech[ing] off the rest of us"--a free account gets 50L a week. At current exchange rates, that 50L per week stipend amounts to less than twenty cents US. Then factor in that Basic account holders only receive stipends during weeks that they log in--which effectively means only _active_ free accounts receive stipend.

If we assume about 25% of the Basic accounts are actively being played (as anyone who looks at the actual "in world" figures can tell you, an active Basic account player base of 25,000 is probably MUCH higher than the real world numbers.). Then if we assume that of SL's claimed membership, 100,000 are free Basic accounts, we get 25,000 accounts receiving 20 cents a week--about 5,000US.

Now consider that the average economic activity on SL runs about 250,000US per day at this point--that's 1,750,000US per week. That means the "leeching" of Basic accounts that you complain about, amounts to about 0.28% of the total SL economic activity each week.

I feel so violated.



Since LL _makes_ money off of transaction fees by running the Lindex, I fail to see how that would increase their incom

Wait Lewis, you do not sound logical now. "More money than sense", do you mean with this that landbarong do not take any skills and its actually not to bring any profit at all, but landbarons put in money in game just so would have to pay more for your land?

I do not know which part of the " land is as cheap now as it has ever been" part you do not understand? Maybe its because of the landbarons competeing? When I started playing there was not so much land aviable, I recall a PG lot 1024sqm sold for around 10k. I would say the landbarons with the extensive buying of sims in autcions has overall made the land cheaper, not more expensive.

I agree with you though, I can also live without suffication; which my idea for one part would remove.

Just for fun let us assume Lindenlab would start selling and buying back land. They would sell for 10/sqm buy back for 5/sqm? That still leaves room for speculation. It would still make " nice" places more than 10/sqm since there is only a limited number of that.

At some point I asked those people who complained most about land prices: " Would you tier up if land was cheaper?" Guess what the answer was? It was " No".
I even offered land for free to a few, and they said, thanks but I cannot afford more tier fees.
When you look at it with a longer perspective, it is the tier fees that gets expensive, not the land itself. When you decide to get out, you still can hopefully get some of the money invested in land back, but tier, its gone forever.

The way Lindenlab has handeled land is somewhat backwards though, with land getting cheaper and not more expensive. It means those players who has bought land a long time ago, lose most. I think land should be something that rather gets more expensive within time; like a reward to those who has paid tier for ageses. Compared to RL, land tends to get more valauble not less within time. I wonder how many would buy land in RL knowing that in 3 years it would be worth half.

I'm also talking about the use of bandwidth, server space and other stuff that we, the paid users, are subsiding. Not to mention the extra lag that causes.

I know we need the free newbie accounts to grasp the potential of SL - after all, if I hadn't joined on one I probably wouldn't be here - but how many turn into actual paid accounts? I for one would love to know, although don't expect to be told.

Lewis

My general question to this. Lewis stated he had some 2K some odd meters of land. So, hmm. that all 'First Land'? And if not, why did you not bring up your concerns regarding land at the point where you first started buying additional. Since last I checked, people resell those first lands for a nasty markup compared to most land out there, including more than quite a few 'Barons' resell for.

See, not everyone selling land out there is a Baron. Some people, curse them! Some people just want to get rid of their current land because they want more. And more often than not, its far easier buying a plot the size you want than expanding your current lot.

One more thing. I would be MORE than happy to buy your current land for half of what you bought it for, heh. Drop me a line and we can get right on it!

Woohoo Thanks Travis I trudged all the way through this umm "discussion" and was about ready to write of another pointless thread when I saw your reference to Roamsearch, useful wasnt a complete waste of time after all