A challenge to Land Barons

If it works for first land, why can't they do it for larger size parcels for any player to buy? I'm sure that once a sim has been established it could be divided up and all the land put up for sale in regular little parcels fairly automatically once it's been done once?

I'm no programming expert but wouldn't it be the equivalent of a 'copy paste'?

Lewis

The extra effort is worth it for first land in order to give people a taste in hopes that they will want more.



It would be very easy if ever sim was exactly the same. Or there were only a handful of sim styles. People would complain about it though.

That isn't the reason that Linden Labs doesn't do it though. They want to make sure that they are not taking any risk when they put up a new sim. Selling it by the sim means that not only is the cost of the machine completely covered but there is also someone who is taking on the tier.

Lewis, this is exactly what private island sims with a 'baron' can offer.

1) We can use our tier discounts to save *you* money on tier even while taking a profit. Even Anshe has rental, where there is no money up front at all.

2) Private island owners can (in theory) parcel sims *better* than the Company - with many of us you can negotiate plot size and location, down to 16m.

3) We can offer greater terraforming freedom than the mainland.

4) We can offer zoning.

5) We can offer low lag, or at least do something when one tenant lags the sim to oblivion.


On the mainland, however, I largely agree with you - there are high charges and few guarantees to be found (though some land barons offer 'buy back' in 30 days, if I understand correctly).

Interesting.

Where did all the pro land barons come from?

I remember when you had the option to not go through a thrid party. When LL had auctions for many different sizes of parcels. Land Barons were there too, but I never had too many issues with getting a piece of land. A few times I was outbid, but I just found a different one and won that.

People would complain about the land barons because they were annoying. They didn't do anything of much use no matter how much they'd like you to believe they did. Then LL decided to reward this behaviour by selling only sims. I never purchased land again.

Now all you people are fooled into believe that while there is no other choice, it's still a good choice. Land would be just as expensive. Got to tell you, it wouldn't be. Not at all.

The only way I will ever own land again is if either LL brings back my ability to buy from them or I can afford an island.

You can buy land from LL now; they still auction off smaller pieces, they just aren't from new sims. I participated in the land auctions four times prior to their becoming primarily whole sim auctions. For the most part, people did not utilize that method for buying land even though you could fairly reliably obtain land at land dealer prices as I did. Overall land prices were higher than, though.

It has always been my opinion that LL was in effect jobbing out land sales and management in lieui of staffing up to do it in house. As I said earlier, it is the trend, one which is driven by the hidden labor costs. Land barons save LL the cost of holiday pay, vacation and sick days, and/or health care.

here is my challenge to lewis nerd,

use the search tool to look for past discussions on this topic. that may give you a clue about these mysteries that are perplexing you.

look at the recent auctions and check the prices of the land sold. now calculate that rate of wholesale land. then apply monthly charges from LL and the time to parcel land. now compare that to inworld prices.

for somebody going on a limb and making accusations of robbery, you sure are a lazy about covering your back with any research or evidence. and you are expecting the people you are attacking to do your homework for you?

i propose if you don't like the land prices, go to the auctions and buy your own land wholesale.

You still have the option to not go through a thrid party, it will just cost you more now. Linden Labs decided that it was no longer worth shouldering the burden of dividing up sims. They are getting far more out of the change than anyone else.

Is this a thread about...

a) apologizing for capitalism?

b) rationalizing capitalism?

c) explainng the basics of capitalism?

d) condemning capitalism?

e) all of the above.

It's a thread which exemplifies why so many small businesses fail.

Go back to TSO or buy your own sim and build it. You have not been in game long enough to watch the dynamics of real estate. LL used sell small parcels. I congratulate all the "land barons" for their hard work over the last two years. Its been interesting to watch

I remember when I came in, I had the same questions on my mind.

Why do I have to pay another player? And while it's true that isn't always the case, it happens frequently enough.

It's a valid question, and a question we are going to hear for years (if all of us are lucky and the platform makes the 'big time').

Just my two cents... Have faith!

If you love the sim you're in... be patient, talk to your neighbors to see if any are interested in selling, pass out notecards... etc etc

If you're not married to it... SELL IT NOW (avoid double tier at all costs). If you put it for sale at very slightly less than very similar land (I'm not suggesting you sell M warm flat land at PG cliffside snow prices for example), I promise you, it will sell rather quickly (unless it really does have some serious defect-- in which case, lower it more).

Once it's sold... with a little patience and luck, you will find another great piece of land at a good price. Devote an hour every day to checking the land sales every five minutes, for example. While you're building in a sandbox or something.

Personally, I don't deal with land barons or LL directly if I can help it. There is always someone out there who wants to part with a piece of land quickly at a reasonable price.

And as much as I dislike certain dastardly land barons who will remain nameless-- sitting around blaming them for things you can easily take control over yourself is worse than pointless. My point is: you can do it! Good luck. That's my two cents on the table.

Why are Land Barons so greedy and selling the land with these obscene markups?
Please take out a calculator or open up Excel and do some calculations. These markups are in no way obscene and not to be confused with "profit". Please take into account the transaction costs for payment, the costs for paying tier for unsold land, the costs for getting out the Linden$ out of SL again. (And if you really are nice, place take into account the exchange rate risk, the risk of Linden Lab "changing its mind" etc.) Someone else has done it already in this thread. He did not lie.

If you are really clever, knowledgable and a bit lucky, you can make a nice profit in the land business. If not, you might actually lose a lot. Most of the time it is somewhat "in between".

Why does Linden Lab not do all the land business itself (cheaper)?
Because it would not be cheaper. Land business is people business. It involves a lot of manual tasks. (I know most residents don't believe that. Please just try it yourself for two or three months.) If Linden Lab would do it all itself they would need more people for that. They would have to pay more to these people than residents expect to get out of their SL business. People are working for peanuts in here.

It is accepted in most circles of SL that Linden Lab does not create all the "content" of SL. And that is realistic because it would be impossible for Linden Lab to do that. It makes sense economically to have residents doing it. And it makes sense economically to have residents doing the land business.

I am already paying the monthly subscription. Why isn't all land that I need included?
Because Linden Lab wants to make a profit. The monthly subscriptions from all paying members cover only a small part of the costs of running the company. Without tier payments, Linden Lab would be deep(er) in the red. Of course LL could simply charge a higher monthly cost. But why have all residents pay for those few who want/need more land and prims?

I am already paying tier. Why do I have to pay for buying land?
Land is server space. Setting up a server costs (Linden Lab) money. So they charge a price for it. Running those servers costs money. So they charge tier for that.

Why don't I have to buy land/pay tier in other games?
Because Second Life/Linden Lab has a different business model. SL is very resource intensive for every single sqm and every single AV compared to other MMOGs. Because of the incredible amount of freedom we residents enjoy, the resulting costs our Second Lifes differ wildly. The mix of subscription, land price and tier is an attempt by LL to calculate a fair price for all residents.



Do I believe this will satisfy the original poster?
No. People tend to believe what they want to believe. And it is obviously more pleasant to believe that land should be cheaper for me.


ADDENDUM:
Why does this have be all so damn capitalistic-free-market-style?
Because King Philip wants it that way.

According to who? I have indeed flown all over the grid for weeks before finding exactly the type of plot I wished for. Finding land to satify an individuals particular needs is a far different story than just numbers.

1500sqm of mature land goes for avarage 8000-9000L, which is far from 100USD, more like 30USD; aproximatly same as your one month tier.

If you think its easy to manage land, try to sit and edit land for 14h in a row; I bet your ass would hurt also.

If you looked at closed auction and actual selling prices, you would see that the buying price is way more than a "fraction". So on your planned 1500sqm some landbaron could make up to 3000L$?, this shall also be enough for paying the tier. Maybe you should also try to look at it from another view. Someone is having/holding that land there for you, so you can buy it when you need. I recall beeing a new player and I wanted to expand my homeland, but no land for sale in that sim. I would have been soooo happy if some landbaron had been sitting there on some land.

One thing people also forget when it comes to sims with land for sale in, is lag. Visit some crowded fully built area and then go to a sim with major part emptyish and for sale. In which one is it easier to move around?

*claps hands* - Right on!

I have to admit when I saw the 'this is how I want it' picture the first thing I thought was 'he wants isometric graphics?'

Yup - LL used to sell land in all kinds of amounts - before that there was 'land rush' where you raced into a sim and tried to 'stake a claim' as a linden released it parcel by parcel.. oh then there was the lottery method (like Busy Ben's).. the 'forum auction' then the auction system...

I think Linden Lab has tried nearly every way there is to sell Land - I often picture Andrew and Philip cleaning the LL Lavatories with toothbrushes discussing it like Forest Gump and Bubba talking about shrimp

For one reason or another they evolved to this state of affairs - so they must have decided this was the best way for them to deal with it..

Jauani is right in this too - Lewis should do a lil digging and find out what went before before saying 'LL NEEDS TO DO (insert thing they did last year)'.

Isn't it amazing how often rather than trying to justify things that I don't understand or disagree with, I get told to basically put up with it because it's the way things are, or go back to playing TSO? You guys really ought to think a bit more about being welcoming.

I guess I should just stop trying to suggest ways to improve the game and stop caring - and no, there's no reason why I should have to go back through years worth of posts to see if this issue has come up before. The simple fact it HAS come up before, and is being asked again, goes to show that there are people who want to do things other ways than going through a third party.

Lewis

It has never been in dispute that there are people who want things to function in another way. The reason for it not fuctioning the way you wish it to is not because the idea would not have the support of a number of people.

a> i don't understand what you are trying to say
b> use the search tool so you don't look like a fool
c> don't indignantly accuse people of robbery when you are clueless
d> once you come to the forum with an opinion, you lose happy cheery welcome wagon priviliges

what you should guess to stop doing is to make baseless attacks on a group of players when you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and no legs to stand on. the simple fact that you woke up witha glimmer of a thought today doesn't mean you are excused from the hard work of formulating an arguement.

I started the thread with a question, stated my reasons for asking, and offering a potential solution - then handed it over to the community to discuss.

So far, I've seen a few people who like to argue just for the same of arguing - but not one post that has any concrete reasons as to why land barons should be able to control the abilities of 99% of the playerbase to enjoy the game through the option of having whatever land they wish to.

I think only one major landowner has even bothered to post here. That in itself should show their contempt for the community at large, and their only interest is their own bank accounts.

Just because "it's been discussed before" or "that's the way it is" doesn't mean that new players can't question things that they don't understand or agree. The game would be very stagnant otherwise, and we'd all just be making casinos, clubs and selling bling in huge ugly boxes that lag the neighbours to oblivion.

I still remain unconvinced that Land Barons are the only possible or practical solution to the land ownership problem.

Lewis

o rly?

loose rhetoric and baseless claim. do some research.

baseless assumption. do some research

SL is managed by an free market economy. do some research. get over your sense of entitlement.

sense of entitlement. baseless attack.

next week, lewis needs a new outfit. lewis proposes outfits should be free! halleluja!


have you ever heard of the stock market? the currency exchange? real estate market? supply demand? arbitrage? go do some research.

lewis nerd is looking for land. please give him some cheap land.


if you believe that you can cover your lazy arm chair rhetoric with the guise of radical and dissentful thinking you are sorely mistaken. you need to buy land and feel you should get a discount from the free market. rather than spending time to research read, or asking how the economy works, you skipped over any intelligent discussion, as usual, to push your own agenda.
nobody has argued that they are. they are just the best solution in a free market economy.

There aren't any concrete reasons of why things should work this way - but there might be some concrete reasons why it became this way.

I suspect that human nature got us to this point, and competition is what causes land barony to be a bit more 'friendly' than it otherwise might be.

Also, were it not for tier discounts, I'm not sure there would be any land barony at all.

This thread is moot.

So.... Jauani Wu.... could you answer these two questions for me?

1) How much land do you currently own?

2) When was the last time you tried to buy any land?

I'm just trying to figure out whether you have any valid relevant input for this discussion, or whether you're just arguing for the sake of it and because of who my friends happen to include.

Lewis

Hi Lewis,

I'm a 'newbie' as well. I also happen to have just taken ownership of and Island and intend 'sub-letting' some of the land on it. I use the word sub-letting, as if it was truly my Island I wouldn't have to pay LL a monthly service charge/tier now would I?

With this in mind I probably sit in both camps and am very intrigued by your question.

To be honest, I also do not fully understand your question/problem, so please feel free to elaborate.



The only two land-baron's land I've looked at have provided much 'nicer' land to use. I've put 'nicer' in quotes as it is very subjective. The land they provide has been structured and themed, making for a more pleasant experience. They also did not have neighbour's trees swaying though my wall, nor particles floating through my land and no big flashing for sale sign obscuring the moonlight.

In addition to this the pre-built houses (supplied on many of the properties) are to a high standard and come with many extras.

Have you actually tried terra-forming your land or built a house from scratch ... it can all be done, but I spent about 8-10 hours just assembling a house (my first attempt) ... not building it, just assembling it! I didn't have to create any textures and upload them, nor did I have to 'rez' and manipulate any prims.

I would hate to estimate how many hours it takes the land-barons to provide this service. Even with pre-fab houses, building tools etc.

Personally I would gladly pay for this time and service. Fortunately for me I can afford to enter at the Island level and in return get the full feature set to play with. I suppose this is part of what you give up in order to get a 'nice' bit of land from a land-baron.

Lastly, the land-barons are probably dragged into all kinds of disputes between neighbours. Again this would take a lot of time ... personal time as disputes can't be resolved by automated scripts. (I think )



A quick look at the land for sale gives me an average of around L$5/sq.m. this equates to about L$21k, which is much less than the L$30k you quote. It must be a desirable bit of land you're coveting. The $100 for L$30k seems a particularly poor exchange rate.

You don't mention if you'd be charged a tier for this 4096 sq.m, but the LL going rate for tier on this size is I believe $25 p.m. how does this compare to the land-baron's



Is Second Life meant to allow people to be creative? There are a large number of people 'playing' second life as a suped-up The SIMS. How many SLers frequent the clubs to socialise? How many SLers spend their time shopping?

As to why you need to pay such high amounts of money? The short answer is that you don't. If you don't want to pay it, then don't. If nobody pays those rates then in theory the rates would come down? Don't spend your money, wait for the price to become something you are happy paying.



If what you are after is 'virgin' land that hasn't had anything done to 'enhance' its perceived value then I think your only real option is to check out the auctions.



Mmm… isn't this what LL auctions are?



Leon