Land Value in SL- Will it Implode soon?

I don't need any corporate welfare to run my business. Do you? I already get all those extra Lindens in my box, so I do stuff like feed all my group's dwell back to the entire group of tenants instead of keeping a separate non-landed tenants' or vendors' group. Do you do stuff like that?



I will repeat this a million times. LL does not serve only you. I didn't say they owe me anything, like you feel they do. It's my blank canvas, too, not just yours. I didn't reap any inherent advantage -- nothing of the kind given the costs and the anti-business and anti-land deal climate in here. Land work is hard work. If you haven't done it, I don't want to hear from you.



Wow. Am I impressed? Geez.



Oh, did that enable you to get a *second* free-4096 lol?



Maybe they were wrong? I don't know. That was when only the tekkie wikies etc were in the game. Now it's different. Maybe they will adapt? It's changing all the time.



I don't know who he is. I'm sure he's very important. I realize that all older beta players had a sense of eminent domain -- I get to go anywhere on the grid just because I'm "helping to create the scaffolding" and "making the wiki". That's the essence of that arrogance -- some soi-disant selflessness gets to be incorporated ever and anon as heroic glory. No thanks. By that time, he probably had the networks, the connections, the posrates, the inventory, the whatever to suck it up, pay the tier, and make something of his world. I don't feel THAT sorry for him.



Yes, I know, that's what I apply to my business, too.



Um, you sound like you think you're still in a tekkie wiki? But...your puddle is shrinking around you? Hello? What's happening is that a catching up is taking place. More attention it likely to be paid to landowner rights, to group tools, to making businesses, to having means and vehicles for securing more real investment and real staying power in this game. The way that is done in the normal civilizled outside of college campuses subsidized by Mom and Dad and socialist theme parks like Belarus and Cuba is by ensuring private property has value. It is the heart of the individual rights system and the rule of law, and the curb on authority and executive power in any world, including this one.

I'm not content to live on suffrage from people like you who tell me I have to get permission from them "to even exist" let along turn a profit. That's where you're wrong.

Let me explain it again: the Lindens sell land on their auction. For a profit. To themselves. They don't complain if you then resell it for a profit. In fact, if you couldn't do it, you wouldn't be back buying from them again. They control that process, and people disagree whether they control it more or less, but they don't do this as some accidental exploit of some version 1.2 of a thousand years ago, they don't do this as a temporary measure, they do it as integral to this world.



There's been lots of threads about this. I won't change your mind about it. Their value is proved again and again by people buying. If it was a rotten system with way too high price gouging, people wouldn't buy.

Right now, the ordinary person doesn't feel a lot of confidence such as to buy inworld. It's due to the patch. Patches always shake loose loads of people -- I know on the morning after each patch, I can expect to go to each one of my communities and find people have been forced not to pay their rent, and they are emailing me frantically to tell me they can't even log in or stay in the world without crashing.

The other thing that is unsettling to people is the events bork and the dwell bork. People don't buy land when they can't figure out whether the Lindens are still playing social engineer or not. When they get done with that people will go back to buying more land on a regular basis.



We've all been over this a hundred times. What's at stake here is not nomenclature but ACCESS TO ADVERTISING. The renters or the sellers of long-term leases on private islands merely want access to advertising. They want to sell their wares. They don't want to be made a second class of merchants, locked off the lists, because it is only for land sales -- and nothing else.

We've already established it's not about fraud, that they have set the bar high for informing people, etc.

What you fail to hear is that Philip (I think he spells it with one "L" in the last town hall meeting said unmistakeably that the Lindens are NOT going to zone and the Lindens are NOT going to bless player governments but he Lindens *are* going to encourage players to rent, and player-based zoning.

So what part of that did you not understand? He didn't say "OMG, that horrid 1.2 mistake has got to be rectified, let's kill the land owners and string them up on the lampposts." No.

If the Lindens are encouraging people to zone themselves and rent out themselves, then they need to be helped to understand that screwing with the events list and screwing with the advertising on the land sales list are discouraging, not encouraging.

Hey, at least I talked to people in the know, unlike you, I dont just spout off garbage without anything to back it up.

I don't want ANT subsidies, so I have no fucking clue what point you think you're trying to make. As per usual, you are simply repainting what i actually said to fit you hyperbolic, paranoid fantasies.

4096? Do you not know that this account CANNOT have one? look at my born on date brainiac. *The sound of one more Prokofy hot air filled balloon deflating*.

Oh, NOMENCLATURE! *Slaps self on forehead*. Perhaps we should just let Ford and GM tell us they're selling us a car when we are really only leasing? I am not against "rentals" ad space, I am against advertising it as for sale, when it clearly is not.

Welcome to ignore Mr. Neva. Seems to be the only way to be rid of your posturing and outright untruths. You are flat out lying when you accuse me of being anti-land owner. So this is where I get off the crazy train. Enjoy your descent into Not being taken seriously Land. It's followed closely by The Land of relative Obscurity.

It is all semantics, there was a whole thread on this very subject on what to call them. It was never settled as everyone has a right to their own opinion.

If you do not believe they are sales, the I support your right to think that. I also support the right of those that do believe they are sales.

Technically when you get right down to the nitty gritty there are no land sales in LL, you either lease from LL or you lease from a player. You own nothing, you are only renting virtual space... resources if you will. All those resources come from the same company and they all are temporary. Eventially SL will cease to be a game, it is inevitable.

If you remember, Jesse, that thread was a poll.
Last time I looked the majority vote was that these deals are rentals.
Not my opinion. I think they are best referred to as neither rentals nor sales. But that's the majority view.

With respect, its the "they are sales" people who keep playing semantics, exactly as you just did again.

The other side of the disagreement says simply that they are sufficiently different from what we now, irrevocably, call "land sales" that they MUST be called something different, no matter what it is.

And is that not the definition of the word semantics? I also believe you are too smart to put any credit into any polls done on any forums That is a sincere compliment btw.

Correct me if I am wrong, just want to get the facts straight. Does Linden actually sell you land? Do you own that land, hence own part of the server it resides on as the land is nothing more then resources shaped into a visually appealing landscape. I call what Anshe is doing as sales simply because she is doing exactly what LL is doing, leasing server resources for a player to use.

Oh Jesse

Of course I can see force in your highly intelligent argument, as I do each time you post it. I'm not sure whether we should call it "semantic", or "philosophical". My only point is that it is of no practical help.

The only question (for me) is:
Are these things sufficiently different that they need different practical names for us to use?
The answer (for me) is "yes".

That's all. I ain't being clever. I'm just trying to be practical.

Right there is the difference. Linden Lab owns the servers - Anshe does not - she is subleasing, not leasing. Why all this dancing around the fact that it is different?

Curse you, Cristiano, you.

There I was going at it very gently. Almost won her round.
And you have to jump straight in with your great "truth-hammer" and mess it all up !

rofl - and I mean, really, on the actual floor !

What the heck, Jesse, I'm sorry, I couldn't resist that. The contrast between my post and his was so huge I just fell about.

It's all just a bit of fun really, isn't it?
And one of the fun things is putting experimental probes into your own nature and personality to see whether you can find anybody nasty or mean inside, or whether something just stops you, even when you're protected by strong anonymity.

Ain't life FUN !
Learning all the time, specially about ourselves.

We *know* we went through all that semantic bullshit already in like 3 other threads all of which Lindenar started and thrashed in mightily. Duh.

We don't care if they are called rentals, sales, sublets, or cream cheese. The point is, whatever they are called, there are plenty of caveat emptors. And the issue is can they be in the land list. And quite frankly this entire discussion is completely up the case because *they are already in the land sales list and staying in the land sales list and your squawking hasn't gotten them removed.*



Um...do I hear the sound of hot air coming out of Kismet? Because it is Kismet who told us just a few posts back that this account is his *subsequent* account because on his *other* account he "talked to Phillip Linden" and all that great stuff. So I'm obviously referring to his *other* account -- does that have a free-4096? That's obviously the question. Pretty hard to duck it by referring to a "subsequent" account-- that's pretty lame.



Uh, yeah, have you tried that? And did you probe and find the answer yet as to what you are up to with this, really?

Ok I agree on the term "lease" and "sublease" or if you want to keep with the current terminology of "sale" and "subsale" is fine also.

But when you are talking about the same servers (yes the very exact same servers in the same location which even get switched around) you can not call one something and another something completely different.

Anshe is "sub-" something. Whatever you decide to call what the Lindens are doing with their land Anshe, and other sim estate owners, are doing a sub of that.

I am not dancing, although I do love to dance... and would do a dance together with you ingame ... I just think it is unright to call what Anshe, or others, are doing something completely different then what the Lindens are doing when they are using the exact same tools, exact same servers, exact same bandwidth... exact same identical resources.

Get rid of all the titles, and it just boils down to resources, in the end that is what we are "leasing".

Well! Thank goodness that the wishes of a very small majority of highly commercialized individuals were able to personally dictate Linden policy to their benefit. It was almost like an entrenched power elite... an inner core if you will... got its way. Of course, it's perfectly alright for your minority to dictate grid policy.

Almost tempted to peep at that one. Managed to resist.
Kiss kiss prok. Or praps you've reciprocated ? (rhetorical)

Lehane, I come to SL to have fun... even in the forums. While I have certain views I try to explain them... at times defend them but I never try to force them onto others.

As long as tempers do not flair and people start to get mad I like discussions. I stop posting when drama starts to enter the arena though.

So all good fun Lehane

Its entirely different. They actually own what they are leasing, unless they go out of business the servers will be there. Anshe could die, get banned, abondom game, have her credit cards cut off, anything. A LL is a coporation, Anshe is just a person. Unless Anshe is going to become a corp or a limited LL company (which if she isn't she should be someone could sue her ass into the ground, well maybe not she is in germany they have shitty laws), she isn't in the same class as LL and this conversation is pointless. What she is doing it not the same at all, and it is obvious to anyone with the least bit of business knowledge and common sense.


Has Anshe ever provided a business address, name, and phone number?

You know what's hilarious? I just turn on my game, and there those ads are, like they have always been. I never had to do a thing.

I've never talked to a Linden about it at all. I rarely talk to them except about some practical thing like some maintenance land issue. I'm not on the phone to them daily and making huggie bearz with them.

They did this on their own, and it's the right thing to do. A minority clamouring now trying to get them to undo it will probably not have any influence. I think they will look at the fraud issue a little harder and maybe figure out how to deflect it. I do hope to God they have the sense not to undo a thing they did already.

I think Ryan, who's letter about those micro/dutch/whatsis type of auctions that might bring us the $981 sim, is sobered seeing how his mere letter dropped the auction to $2/meter.

I think what's really clear about Lindar is that he is not currently dealing in or developing --land well except maybe watching for those for-sale signs to pop back into his inventory.

If he were trying to sell or develop land, he wouldn't have the time he's had to churn on the forums.

Oh? Guess you never co-lo'd a server? Never leased clusters for hosting companies? Sub-leased resources off those clusters?

Resources are just that... nothing more then resources. They get leased and sub-leased in the world daily, relocated, re-leased, devided, sub-devided, sub-sub-leased.

I am not going to get into where I fit into that in my rl, but I will tell you that I both lease and sub-lease resources. To me, there is no difference other then risk.

I would never make an assumption of someones knowledge of business or commonsense.... at least not lightly. I have no idea what anyone does in their 1st life. That last statement of yours could be taken as a personal attack.

Again, you actually made the very point you are arguing against. That risk is the entire difference - there is a second person in the way that can do what they want on a whim with the land, since there are no legally enforceable contracts in place. I am all for informed players making the choice to live on a private sim if they want to. However, there is an additional risk, and it is false advertising for the land to be advertsed in the same manner as normal land. It amazes me how much people refuse to acknowledge that fact. I refer you to my statement in Anshe's poll thread about the risks, which she did not respond to:

/130/57/44117/7.html#post472570

I saw that, and I believe I stated in the same thread that I do believe their should be a way to see in the land find tab the difference between private land for "lease" and LL land for "lease". I completely agree with you on that aspect.

If you search thru the posts, sorry I do not have a link, you will find it in there somewhere.

That is all I have been asking for - but many people have spent so much time playing a semantics game and denying there is risk or difference. The bottom line is the land advertising window needs updated to reflect this change. I think everyone can agree on that.

Amen. Keep swinging, keep fighting, you're winning this one, just walk around the robots, it is so good to have someone with common sense in the game, we need more people like this to dispel the robots.

Tisk Tisk.


If you have any knowledge of the above you will still understand a 3rd party reselling those resources is not the same as me selling the resources. There is a clear and significant difference in the risk. I didn't personally attack anyone, only dumbasses in general, so if you feel attacked I guess you are in that category.

I fully agree with you, Cristiano: risk is a big difference

If you buy in "Ansheland" then one Anshe Chung could suddenly go crazy, confiscate your land and ruin your experience.

If you buy in "Lindenland" then any one of hundreds or thousands of inconsiderate people could come to your sim, lag it to death, destroy the landscape and ruin your experience. Mmmm, well, you have had this in Federal, haven't you? Many many unhappy postings by you document this on the forums.

Well, I fully support the idea of making it clear to people when they buy land if it is in one sim zoned and administered by me or not. They should be made aware of the additional risk they take when buying into a mainland region where anarchy and the rule of the ruthless is the law

The bottomline is that perception of risk is subjective. For considerate and friendly people I believe my sims are less risk and more value, because they provide one additional layer of protection. For those who care little about the impact they have on their neighbours and their environment the mainland might be better: there they can put up their black boxes and act out their urges and happily ignore the lamentations of their neighbours without any "risk" of consequence

Anshe,

Whats your opinion on calling land deals in your sims something other than "buying land" or "land sales"? I've read some of your posts but it seems you are determined to use those terms for land you truely own.

Edit:
Nevermind, just read one of your latest posts and you are still wanting to call yours "land sales" because LL does and you feel it isnt fair for LL to call theirs "land sales" and yours not to be called that.