Land Value in SL- Will it Implode soon?

I don't "truly own" any land in Second Life. Nobody does. Not by legal standards.

I am offering the same deal Linden Lab is offering, so I use the same established term that Linden Lab is using. They call it "land sale" or "lease sale" or "timbukaka" and I will call mine "land sale" or "lease sale" or "timbukaka". If Governor Linden ask me to, then I don't mind call it "land re-sale", "lease re-sale" or "sub-timbukaka". But the basic term is the same because the basic deal is the same.

Hey.

Youse guys are spoiling my suspended disbelief with all this sentence parsing.

So if I buy land from you, I can carve it up how I want and resell it immediately day or night, even if you are offline? I can do this with LL land.

One way you can sell land anytime without my help is by transfering group ownership.

But this question actually misses the point. Of course there are minor differences between land. There is also differences between land in one mainland sim and land in another mainland sim. Just compare Boardman with Jesse. There are also things you can do with land you buy in the sims I manage that you can not do with land in, say, Maui. Like digging one 80m deep well below your mountain castle.

One Toyota and one Volvo are not exactly the same. But in both case you have car sales.

How do I transfer group ownership and get paid at the exact same time to ensure transaction safety for both parties?

Actually your answer misses the point. My point isnt about how deep I can dig a hole. My point is about what resell rights I have with LL land vs Ansheland.

Then you should discuss rights, not technical details about how the transaction is made.

I appreciate your contribution to this discussion, but here you are mixing two different things.

Im sorry but in SL the technical details often give us certain rights and more importantly protections. I assume you are saying there is no 100% safe way to resell or buy Ansheland from someone if you are offline? With LL land I have transaction safety 24/7, with Ansheland I need a mediator (you) or someone has to 'trust' the other party if you are not available. Correct? Being able to resell my land at anytime with zero risk is a 'right' I enjoy with LL land.

This is one technical feature. If you think this is very important to you, then you might consider land with this feature more valuable and pay higher price for it.

There are also other technical features. For example in "Ansheland" one newbie can not accidently press one wrong button and suddenly have all land go public. You can also not accidently buy into one sim without being informed that there exist zoning rules - something that on mainland happens to newbies when they buy in places like Boardman.

On mainland you also don't enjoy service of one Linden employee to personally assist you during your land purchase.

You can compare the features and bells and whistles of two cars, then decide which car is better for you and worth more money to spend on. It still doesn't change the fact that both are cars and both are sold or owned or rented.

Selling both types of land I sometimes recommend land in "Ansheland" to one particular customer and sometimes I recommend some land on mainland. This depends on priorities of the person who is looking to buy.

Well, one possibility is that Anshe can put up a bond and pay a monthly support fee in order to get her land intermixed with LL.

Cross-posted from another thread because I find the main argument seems to have moved here :

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Hi Anshe

I hope you dont include me in the "rich-is-evil" brigade. I'm a succeeded-and-retired-very-early real-life entrepreneur, and I watch your progress with admiration.

But on the "name" thing I think you are getting muddled, along with tons of other people. Your philosophic arguments have much validity, but they just aren't relevant to the PRACTICAL question of what we call things.

You aren't seriously suggesting that we change the name of what we always called "land sales", are you ? Just to get two more philosophically correct names ? Of course not.

Most people seem to agree that these two things are sufficiently different to need to be called different things. If only because of the big difference in who has power over the resident. (in anonymity and accountability, for just two).

THAT is why we need a DIFFERENT NAME. Not because the philosophical arguments you put forward are necessarily wrong, or weak.

Forget what actual names we decide on, or what lies behind their wider meanings. One already has a name it is too late change. We need a name for the other.

Surely you agree these two things are sufficiently different to need to be called something different ?

If you don't, its only natural that people wonder why, and look to see if maybe you have a commercial interest in the outcome.

Apart from the commercial interest you deny, how can this naming thing possibly matter to you so much that you are willing to antagonize people over it ?

If you really are doing this for a principled love of language, I think that is neither appropriate nor expedient. In other words - your arguments may be philosophically correct, but in practice completely irrelevant, and annoying people who just want things sorted out.

Ok. Transaction safety is a technical feature not available with Ansheland.

A newbie could delete his house or drop all his L$ in a tip jar by mistake. A newbie could drop a sim nuke on the ground (even in Ansheland) not knowing what it does. LL would just warn him but you could take his land from him given enough pressure from neighbors.

And that 1 LL employee use to work with 1 person per private sim. Now they have how many more per private sim to support? Either LL will need more support people to cover private sims or the response time will diminish on private sims.

In my opinion, the question of who you are trusting (and agreeing to obey) and whether they are anonymous or not is of huge significance.

I think that it is so significant (and most here seem to agree) that on its own it justifies the necessity for these things being called something different.

It far outweighs any similarities in the technical details of exactly what the trust and obedience are, or how they are implemented.

And can we please stop talking as though this is just about the particulars of Anshe and Ansheland. Yes, its the prime example we have, but however this ends up it must be designed to handle Mr X, the not-so-scrupulous-landlord, who has offers, and rules, and maybe intentions, which are quite different.

Im sorry but Mr X hasnt shown objection to calling it subleasing. Has anyone but Anshe objected to calling it something different?

Maybe we should stop discussing this "I demand to call them land sales" thing.
It's ludicrous, impractical, and the Linden's aren't going to go along with it. With luck they'll ban it in the TOS as misleading, and tell us what word to use. Surely we've spent enough energy on it now?

I think, Chris, its just Anshe and Jesse and Prok. Though I can't be sure about the latter because I can't read his posts any more. Maybe 7 more ppl will now speak up (oh dear).

Edit: Mr X may be lurking, to see if he can launch his own "land sales" campaign onto the unwary.

Nope, Prok said we can call it cheesecake or anything, he didnt care.

Jesse however is fine with displaying the land on the map differently (i assume color). And his view on the name is to simply add a "sub" in front; like sublease or subsale. However he does want the latter part of the name to be the same as the one LL uses. So in that respect his view is similar to Anshes but he's willing to at least bend somewhat by adding the "sub" prefix.

I'm with him on that then.

Did you notice my sneaky edit above:

"Edit: Mr X may be lurking, to see if he can launch his own "land sales" campaign onto the unwary."

Thats part of the danger, isn't it.

Well I can live them being called "land sales" until LL finds a new name or way to represent them. Im not trying to pull the rug out from someone. And most of the people like Anshe are ones I would trust and would do business with.

Yeah, I don't care whether you call it cream cheese. Just put it in the Land Sales list. Anyway you can get it there : ) And fix the in-game listings next time so that they have more ingame capacity for all kinds of things for sale -- skins, animations, vehicles, and yes, rentals and leasings of land and properties.




This is what is known in the trade as a "Bolshevik tactic." This is known as "Karaul ustal" ("The Guard is Tired". The guard says they are tired when the parliament is talking to long, and the guard goes home to rest, making way for the Bolsheviks, who are actually in the minority, not majority, to come crashing in violently and seize power.

This little bomb handily deflects attention from the fact that Lindy is the one all along that demanded they be called *something else*.

The people selling them never came on anywhere begging to call them land sales. They just put them in the land sale *list* which is different than insisting they be *defined as land sales*. They just used the list, which is not an exploit, because it's a land offering and it is made clear that the land offering has special terms and conditions.

Indeed, if the Lindens want to make a list called Land Offerings which has icons that designate pictorially and clearly that certain icons mean Linden First Land, other icons mean Linden Auction land etc (like they have now) it shouldn't be a problem to come up with something like a private island lessee kind of symbol.

I hear Anshe and others bending over backward to accommodate all that but also explaining rather pragmatically that Lindens don't really sell us land either, and Lindens aren't there to hold your hand in the middle of the night either.

Why would it be "lucky" for the Lindens to ban in the TOS -- taking a punitive approach -- to those who "fraudulentlly" sell land.

Then they better sure as hell make up a hell of a long list of all kinds of fraud in the game and I'm happy to help them with that!

And they better sure as hell not punish the Better Business Bureau that then comes into existence to provide player-based support to that extremely difficult effort of defining and policing fraud in the game!

Why do land frauds get special treatment from the fraud police?

Why don't you go back in the game and get your land sold, Lindy! Are you selling in Ross BTW ROFL!

Problem with your example: Didnt Anshe run a poll and it showed her opinion to be in the minority here?

No sizable group of people are calling it an exploit nor saying you begged LL to do it.

Actually Anshe isnt bending. She wants them called EXACTLY the same thing as what LL calls their land sales. And LL arnt there in the middle of the night because you can buy their land using the GUI; with Ansheland you have to have her help or take risks.

Maybe because some of most common sources of large L$ transactions daily involve land sales and maybe because previously transactions were 100% safe.

Oh? Can I resell it once I have *bought* it from Anshe?

Yes, Kismet, you can "resell" it. Provided the landowner turns up and implements the sale for you.
It's a tradeable lease.
Come on, pal, keep up, we're goin 100mph here lol.

Thanks Lindar.

That's what last minute decisions to go to Chicago do to a person.

Trying catch up at any rate.

Hehe. Fun isn't it ! Fast and furious (sometimes quite literally!).