A "fine" idea?

That'd be fine, except LL already has a known history for not doing anything about griefers. First thing you need is to get them to hire liasons who will ENFORCE the ToS, and not play favorites according to how much land someone has or how much USD they spend in SL, example..certain real estate people who are quitre well known for griefing people of of land they want to buy dirt cheap.

So right now LL can ban your account, making you unable to sell your $L and cash out. Are you're against banning people too because it has monitary implications?

I would think fines would be less harsh than completely losing all ones $L and in result USD tied up in that $L.

Sorry I've been silent from my own proposal for so long. Many other issues have came up.

AR's are being handled. I've been involved in several over teh last two months. Both my own, and indirectly with those of my friends. LL is enforcing the ToS and CC. The means are slow due to staffing issues and because those that are in place want to make sure they have the facts proper before acting upon them.

The process is slow, but no slower than the RL justice systems we have. Faster probably due to LL's main source of facts are data logs. It just takes time to plow through all that. Also, there are priorities for AR's. One report of one person griefing in a sandbox will probably not even get noticed. 50 people ARing 10 (and that means all 50 listing all 10 persons) will probably get an near instant response.

In response to the comments about it not being "fair" to fine persons;

No one is forcing them to pay the fines. LL won't come to a persons home and forclose on thier house to collect. It is simply pay or be banned. The choice is in the hands of the accused. Part and parcel of my proposal was that LL can only sieze L$. This has become more instringent with open enrollment and the explosion of those who do not have payment information anyway.

As stated above, a permban siezes all L$ and land anyway. The fines allow for the choice of not paying, and therefore being permbanned, or paying the fine and taking another step toward being a productive membor of our society instead of a destructive one.

With the removal of stipends, the fines will have significant wieght. Anyone recieving a fine will more than likely need to use real world monies to buy L$ to pay the fine. Again, the choice of whether they wish to do so, is up to them.

LL's main concern with this will be the need for an appeal system, as well as a "time served" table. ie After a 30 days ban, a 50L$ fine is concidered "payed". Some fines will not have "time served" reductions. Documented and proven griefing of multiple Residents, for example.

That LL would use such a system to nefarious ends is rediculous. Such would hamstring thier reputation and would open them up to a real world lawsuit if the monitary amount was great enough. Fining, and perbanning a Resident with a net worth in the thousands of US dollars would be one example. While it could be argued that LL could "get away" with doing this to smaller net worth Residents, the question of why comes into the front.

LL will make more money off of respectable Residents who pay tier and buy L$ to purchase items inworld than ever could hoped to be gained from fraudulant fines. Quite frankly the effort needed to make it worthwhile far exceeds any gain, and the possibility for litigation factors in as well.

With the influx of alts and open registration, the need for a harsher hand in SL justice has risen. The new land tools are lowering griefing , and hardware hashing is making it harder and more risky for the common griefer. The ones left are what this proposal focuses on. The ones too stupid to stop, and the ones who think they are above the rules.

I thank everyone who has offered thier support and opinions to this proposal. Even to those opposed to it. Even it it does not pass, many good ideas have come from all, and some have sparked new proposals and ideas. I thank you all for helping SL to grow a bit better, even if just by polite discussion such as this.

~Jessy

Well, to respond to the original post...

Some of the major problems with abusers of SL are:

a) The TOS isn't all that specific as to what is abuse and what is not. People have been banned for defending themselves against griefing. A simple, full-screen, large-letter statement that reads, "Attacking any user for any reason (offensive or defensive) outside of an authorized battlezone may be considered a TOS offense." would go a long way.

b) There's all these powerful weapons and scripting functions that LL allows to work.. but people can't use them? Why is hyper-push allowed by scripting rather than putting in some kind of governor. Why does the system even allow a bullet to affect an avatar without their specific permission.. especially in no-kill zones? Is such concept even sane? Only recently did LL put a "no push" option in Sims.. and that falls far short of the real need to allow individual parcels the same function... and even to override the main sim setting (a person may wish push to be cancelled in an entire sim-- except for one sporting area. At this time that's not possible).

c) LACK OF IMMEDIATE AND CONSISTENT ACTION. When a griefer OBVIOUSLY has griefed someone or a land area, the proper response from Linden Lab would be an immediate 24-hour ban. He griefed... he's immediately booted offline.

What do I mean by obvious? Garbaging up an area with flaming prims and explosions. Blocking out an entire merchant area with garbage prims. Porting in and shooting everyone in sight.

Let me give an example that happened just yesterday: I was setting up a merchant booth in 3000 AD. A guy comes along and asks if he can put a slot machine in my booth. I reply of course that such is not allowed. He does so anyway. I tell him to remove it. He starts buidling in the middle of my booth. So I cage him and call a Linden. By the time the Linden gets there (and they did respond pretty quickly) this griefer had completely blocked my booth and the one next to it with large prims and particle explosions.

The Linden response: Caging someone, even in defense, is not allowed. Fortuantely that Linden knew me and knows I never attack anyone without serious provocation, so he removed the garbage and that was the last I saw of the griefer. I fully agree with the Linden's statement that active defense just confuses things for the Lindens. His recommendation is to take no offensive action and abuse report it. I agree. The caging obviously did little good anyway. But... as said in the previous message... with the new totally free accounts, the prevalence of alts and the increased population of SL... a far heavier and immediate hand on the part of LL is needed.

But the griefer remained online. My question: Why? In such an obvious case... why wasn't he 24 hour booted right then?

Some griefers use the defense of "oh I'm new here". Oldest trick in the griefer handbook, and should be completely irrelevant. They broke the TOS, excuses are unacceptable. They're booted for 24 hours. Repeat offense is 3 days and L2000 fine (which yes, could bring their account into a negative "owes LL" range). 3rd offense is permaboot. If they're permabooted, they lose every L$ in their account.

Lack of effective and immediate response causes griefers to perceive LL as being weak. Yes, there are cases in which LL can use discretion. If it obviously was a mistake (ie, a newb opening a cannister of C4), allowances can be made. But if it was apparently intentional, then LL should intentionally deal with the matter.

If the "griefer" disagrees with the decision, he can file an official objection which can then be reviewed later. 24 hours offline while a matter is being sorted out is not going to kill them.

Even in RL, a person can be jailed for 20 hours to determine whether a crime has been committed or not. No one likes that idea... but it's the only way to keep society safe from someone who has apparently committed a crime. From what I've seen, in cases of reported abuse, it usually is abuse.

Very good points, but has nothing to do with adding fines to existing penalties (the purpose of Prop 1433). imo, the system is slow and needs work, but is suficient (if barely). It can always get better, and my proposal is to make the tools used a bit more effective while helping the community. Fines collected can be used to pay stipends, for example.

Wayfinder, I would suggest you start your own Proposal(s).
a) Expanding the ToS for better wording is always a good idea. Hard to get past the "lawyers" involved though. Most copanies don't like changing policies, but it worth a shot or at least discussion on the idea.
b) The Push Restriction was one of the best things placed, and more are still in the works. And you can place these restrictions per parcel. I have them set on my own home, so no idea what you mean by having to go per the sim. I would like to see them added to per avatar, but I can see the problems inherent in that for the same reasons we want them. Also, LL is very reluctant to adjust any script for fear of loss of creativity. Hyper-push is bad in the hands of griefers, but someone else may have a use for it. Still, a good discussion.
c) This would require a SL Police Force which has already be stated will never happen. LL just does not have the staffing to always be there. Like a real world law enfocement, investigations are needed and some may take time to find all the facts, while others are very apparent and able to be proven. imo, LL is consistant in thier actions. LL is also highly protective of a persons privacy (even a griefer's) so not all resolutions are made public. ie. the Police Blotter. Some do slip through the cracks. No system is perfect and esspecially not in one as complex as the virtual world of SL. Again, good for discussion.

In effect, I am not focusing on restructuring the AR system, the ToS, nor the CC, nor even on how LL responds to them all. Prop 1433 focuses on punishments already being metted out by the current system and on thier worth and effectiveness. All other issues, while having merit in thier own right, are not relivant to this proposal.

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I'd be agasint the immeadiate ban/fine, btw. Too large a margin for abuse by false ARs being filed by griefers who don't care if they themselves get banned for the fraud. While some may think 24hours is not a big time, some do. I would not like to lose 24hrs simply cause someone else was an ass. There is no way for LL to give that time back. I much prefer for an investigation into every report. While a griefer may continue to grief in this timeframe, all that will do is give themselves more rope for the hanging.
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~Jessy

Hmm... well, to be honest, I don't really see an advantage of fines as a disciplinary system against griefers. It might work as a system against forum flaming, or in-world drama, etc. (ie, offenses that fall short of griefing but are in appropriate behavior). Dunno, just seems to have limited scope or effectiveness, imo.


Woops! Apparently I have missed something bigtime (and I've searched and searched. lol). Could you tell me where the individual parcel anti-push setting is located? It's probably sitting there like a great big bolder and I just didn't see it.



I agree. I recommended a long time ago that avatars be given an "allow push/disallow push" toggle in preferences, with that toggle overridden automatically if they enter battle land (such as sporting zones). I've also recommended that either the same toggle affects bullets or that they have a separate toggle for that. I mean, why in the world should the system allow another user to cage someone or bullet someone to the stratosphere if such an action is absolutely against TOS? I might actually put this suggestion in the "Features" area; it makes a lot of sense. Individual user control of push/bullet would stop 90% of griefing tools. The other things they might do would be fairly easy to document by chat and photos.

Of course, one easy way to bring an end to a lot of it would be to cancel totally free memberships. Few griefers are willing to spend $10 just to have an av permabanned.


Agreed and good points. Yet... while they're hanging themselves, they're spoiling the game for more people and far more than any 24 hour ban on someone who is more than likely truly a griefer. And yes, griefers can try to frame someone for griefing, but without any evidence whatsoever, that can be hard to do. No photos. No chat logs. No PvP reports. It's a matter of balancing the the greater good against very rare abuse. In most instances I've seen of griefing, that person richly deserves to be immediately kicked off game. (In truth, most of them need permabanned for attitude alone.)

But regarding thread theme... I have to personally say that I don't see a lot of areas where fining would be beneficial. Perhaps a fine for those who are 24 hour banned, 3 day banned, 7 day and 14 day banned might further drive home the issues, and that would certainly be ok. But the majority of intentional griefers use alts. To them, all they have to do to avoid the fine is drop the alt and pick up another. This is especially so now that credit cards are no longer necessary. Before, they could have been fined by a charge to their credit card. Alas.

I've heard many people say that opening up the system to totally free membership without any verification of identity was a bad idea. I have to agree. It has overtaxed the system and griefing has skyrocketed. I mean really, people who can't pay $10 a year to play Second Life...? I've heard it claimed, but I find it hard to believe. It costs more than that to go see a movie.

About Land > Land Options: There is a new box to check as "Restrict Push"

Agreed, but even that little bit of proof in chatlogs, photos, etc, takes time. I've asked LL about it because I was there when a Linden witnessed the griefing. I wondered, "Why don't they do something?". It comes down to policy, and the attempt to be fair to all, and to protect the Residents who do follow the rules. As a police officer irl can not just throw someone in jail, a Linden laison can not jsut ban someone on the spot. It has to all go through the system. Like irl though, that Linden (like the rl officer) carries a lot of wieght with thier word. So do logs off the servers. This is why LL constantly says to file more AR's. To give them the proof they need to take action. The more people that do, the more proof they have, and the more complaints stacked agaisnt a griefer, the harder the punishment when it is metted out.

Yes, the Open Registration made a mess of things. My personal opion on that is that the moron who thought that up should be fired from LL. Worst thing ever to do for PR and for the community as a whole. Even outside news sites have stated this was a bonehead move. I would love to see alternate accounts cost a minimum of 9.95USD. However, moving on, Hardware Hashing will make the use of alts less appealing to griefers. LL will be able to track alts and mains and could levy fines against any, or all. While I would like Hardware Hashing in place now, that is something LL is already working on. I'd like to add fines to the penalties now so the tool is there when HH is. In the meantime, someone suddenly making 75 alts in a month (to avoid paying fines) might attract LL's attention as to why.

~Jessy

Rules, laws, regulations, no matter how redundant mean nothing if they are not enforced.

The system is going in a direction of self enforcement because LL does not have the resorces, yet alone the desire to have to be a police force in SL. Adding another layer of fines or penalties is not going to change that.

As I stated, this is not an independant police force or court of law we are dealing with and the system that is being proposed would place LL in a position of even greater scrutiny as the endless debates begin on penalties given out and if they were fair and just or if misconduct came into play. This is a situation of no one policing the police. This is a can of worms.

This proposal has nothing to do with the people who have a vested interest in SL as they would never place their accounts at risk. This is a veiled attack on new charators that most likely have no assets to attach. This is meaningless as they will just create a new account. Why waste the time on something like this? Push for verification of some form, that was a lot more meaningful and at least then being banned could mean something as it would effect all accounts.

No, it is not. Most griefers -are- new characters due to the fact that griefers come in, grief, then get bored and leave. This won't effect them at all. The fines are after those who are a continous problem. Ones that show up day after day. That they ahve no assets does not matter. If they want to continue to be a part of SL, they will have to aquire those assets to pay the fines, or be permbanned as a result. New Residents, who obey the rules, have nothing at all to fear from any punishment system.




We did. Prop 1503. Over 3000 votes. Ignored by LL. Open Registration is here to stay wether we like it or not.

Current hope is the Hardware Hash system will be able to link alts to mains and prevent this "hidhing" behind alts once and for all. When it does, I want to hammer any griefer to a point that people are unwilling to grief for fear of the repraisles.

SL can not be a body of self enforcement on the rules. We, as a community, are too diverse for such even if LL would think of letting us have the tools needed to be such (and they won't). No matter what "direction" the system takes, LL will always be at the core of the justice system. Part of what we pay our taxes (tier) for.

As for "policing the police", it's not needed. The Apeals system is already there for the warning/suspensions/bans. Scaling fines to match these punishments would be fairly simple. Setting the policies to what is fined how much is all LL will need to do. If the accussed has problems with that, they can appeal through the current system. L$ can always be easily refunded by LL.

On a personal note; I help new Residents at every chance. I have information givers at my property and have spent countless hours giving advise and recommendations. I find baseless accusations that I created this prop for such a purspose as to attack new Residents highly insulting.

~Jessy

Actually the solution to all griefing problems are pretty easy to impliment if they wanted too. They need to expand on the resident mute. Instead of just a mute, if we had the option of making a resident just disappear to us and them, all problems would quite literally disappear.

Lots of Propsals on this under Feature Votes as well. Though I'd rather have votes for my Prop (go figure ) if you're intrested in enhancing the mute feature, browse through the Proposals. If none meet your fancy, start your own discussion and Proposal for such.

Again, Prop 1433 is to discuss ideas about fines on fines. It is but one part of the justice system and is not meant to fix it as a whole. Only profied a stiffer tool for LL to use in allocating punishments to those proven guilty.

~Jessy

Thanks! I found it easily today. I would swear that option wasn't there yesterday when I looked... 'cause I looked hard. Either I was punch-drunk from 6 hours on SL... or it wasn't there when I looked. sigh. LOL

That's a good example too. I mean, when a Linden is on-site and witnesses the entire griefing, why shouldn't that person be empowered to "boot for 24 hours". I mean, they are an intelligent, thinking adult, yes? They are able to make reasonable judgement calls? They can see the guy parading around naked in a PG sim? They can see him building firebombs on private land? I've seen Lindens stand around and do nothing when a griefer was visibly shooting people with high-push weapons, all the while claiming "I'm new! I'm new! I don't know what this weapon does!" bam! bam! bam!

Griefers laugh at Lindens. Seriously, they do. I've seen them parade around naked with a 3 ft "organ" at Ahern knowing that a Linden was standing right there. Linden response? "Put some clothes on please." DUH. Proper response: BOOT! They broke TOS. They knew better. They did so anyway. Let them face the consequense.

I mean, gimme a break. There's fair... and then there's stupid. And yes, I understand policy is important. I have policies in Elf Clan; it's part of what makes us a viable group. But I also am willing to change those policies as the needs of the group change. Imho... a policy that favors griefers over their victims is a bad policy.

Actually, they can. And a Linden should be able to insta-ban for 24 hours at personal discretion. After all, they are a Linden. I trained the Guard to be able to discern a griefing from a newbie accident. The Green Lanterns are trained similarly. So were the Paladins until the group broke up. Lindens can be taught the same. All they need is for the company to back them up and give them the go-ahead to use discernment, wisdom and justice when dealing with an on-site situation in which a person is obviously, to any exercise of common-sense, breaking TOS.

For sure.

As a note, regarding the police blotter: it is LL policy to "protect" the "privacy" of individuals by not using names in the police blotter. That's their right and decision. But...

In RL... ya commit a crime, your name might appear in the papers. Public disgrace is a deterrent of criminal action. RL has a "3 times you're out" policy. I think you (or someone else) back there mentioned the need for LL to take a heavier hand in dealing with griefers. I 100% agree. Put their name in the police blotter. Instead of that blotter only carrying the last 25 incidents... have it carry the last 500 (a Linden commented to me they couldn't possibly do that. Of course they could. They do so in Transaction listings). Make the police blotter valuable rather than some barely-lasts-24-hours waste-o-time page.

A Linden mentioned griefers might view that as an "achievement" page. If they are immature, anti-social and foolish enough to have that viewpoint, then they will make an effort to get on there more-- and with a 3-times-you're-out policy, be permabanned at computer level.

How? SL could place a hidden ID code in their system that identifies who they are no matter how many avs they have. The only way they'd be able to override that is by totally reformatting their hard drive. Very few would be willing to go to all that trouble. There are ways to beef up SL security, ways to more immediately, effectively and permanently deal with griefers, ways to better protect legitimate users. All LL needs to is have the kahoneys to implement stronger policies in favor of victims rather than those who victimize.

And yeah... a fine as a "shock" to those who break TOS the first couple of times might not be all that bad an idea.

Only one problem I see with this-- although it is a viable concept. Just as with the current mute function-- my not being able to hear such a person doesn't prevent others from doing so. They could be standing there ruining your rep and you'd never be aware of it. That's the limitation of all mute concepts.

Prop1433 hit 500 votes exactly!!!!

Thank you all for your support.

I'm trying to gather a few more votes for a edge over the 500 mark before begining to nudge LL in the ribs about it.

Please, continue to discuss. The more information we, the Residents, can come up with, the more help it will be to LL. Bad points need to be expanded as well, so if you see one, bring it up. I'd rather someone say it here than it appear down the road two months after it would be installed as a policy.

~Jessy