Stipends and Economy

This part of your post is intruiging. What was in those bags? Did you smoke any?

It seems to be a moveable feast. A boar, a bird, a fish. A chimera, a mirage.

It started as a complaint of loss of ratings stipend. It is happening. Complaint is understandable. Discussion is rational.

When the "unfairness" issue pressed hard, "money supply" questions sprayed everywhere, and got us in a muddle.

Our quarry surrounded in a thicket, "removal of base stipend" was the long, echoing cry, though it is neither proposed nor likely.

Meanwhile, a ghostly threatening tax phantom flits across in front of us, muttering imprecations of vengeance to distract and un-man the less stout-hearted.

I may be unkind, but perhaps I was wrong. The quarry is not a wild boar, a bird, or a fish, or even a tax demon, but a troll. Perhaps we'd better stop feeding it. (The topic, I mean, of course).

So now a troll? LOL

Zeta said it well, we did pay for it, and they took away what was advertized and was paid for.

Instead why don't you guys figure out how to adjust your economy to the stipends, and stop impacting us? Or is math that difficult for you?

I'll agree the bonus need to go or be replaced by something else, but give us back the 500L a week sitpend we /bought and paid/ for -as was advertised-. Or give us a bloody refund. Thats the -right- thing to do, anyone with a ounce of ethics knows that.

We are not getting what we originaly paid for, plain and simple. Even those of you with full accounts are not, losing some of your advertised stipends as well.

So why are you putting up with lossing what you originaly paid for?

Darm,
The only thing ever promised to a basic account was a $50L per week stipend. You seem to think you were promised a lifetime of bonus stipend, you were not.
Please show me anywhere LL said the bonus stipends would continue for the lifetime of the account, you won't be able to. When basic accounts were initially created by LL I looked into it, LL never even mentioned bonus stipend anywhere on the website in regards to a basic account.

Okay ill take an exception to this


Lets see Orignially it was $10 a month to get a stipend of $1000 Lindens a week. Thats over $4000L a Month. In addition you would get a rating bonus. That bonus could be quite substantial. Just for easy of math lets say you Made a total of Stipend with rating of $5000L.

$5000L at $4 per 1000 Equals 20 dollars US. So literally At $4 = 1000 L , Linden Labs is Paying you $10 a month to play their game ($20-10)

Since from the early days Lindens ecourage monetary exchanges you simply cannot divorce what you can sell Lindens for.

Of course all these stipends eventually bring inflation. But you can also play for $6 a month by paying for the year. so at $6 a month , using the same $5000L example 1000$ Linden only has to be worth 1.20$ US for you to be literally paying nothing. (minus tranactions fees of course)

So as you cost from $4 to 1.2 during your inflationary cycle, Linden Labs is literally handing out money.

Okay thats the original stipend - Removing the rating bonus from my example only improves things by 20%.

Even totally eliminating the Ratings bonus with a 500L stipend doesnt make sense - literally they are giving you $2200 L (4.4x500) a month, and you can get away with paying 6$. SO they are still giving away money. Just not as much.

Realsitically the L$ stipend should probably Be proportional to Teir and be adjusted according to the exchange rate. It should have a maximum of something like 50% value (for the 512 folk)of what you pay in and then a minimum (for those with lots of Tier) of say 10%.

Ok, Darm, I'll buy it one more time. Exactly what is your current complaint ? What was advertised ? When, how long ago ? What did you pay? When and how was it dishonoured ? Did you have any sort of contract stating it would never change, other than this "advertisement" ? Can you even post a bona fide copy of said advertisement ? If this is something from the dawn of prehistory, you need to give the rest of us some clear, unemotional facts before we can join you in even an emotional judgement, let alone a moral or semi-legal one.

It certainly seems an odd thing to have promised, as the L$ has had no fixed or guaranteed value, and at recent exchange rates, many of us are clearly being paid to be residents, as Collette points out.

First of all, we're not deciding or adjusting anything. People in the Land and Economy forum debate the pros and cons of various economic ideas (or just complain a lot), but only Linden Lab makes the calls (though some like to fantasize otherwise).

If you look at SL's pricing page, you see that Basics get a weekly allowance of $50L when you log in, and premiums gets weekly allowance of $500L. That is unchanged from when I joined last november. There was no promise about stipend bonuses.


Here's an analogy you can take or leave as you see fit:
If you start going to a bar because the bouncer whispered "every 4th pint is free" as you walked by one day, and then 6 months later the bar changes that policy... are you going to get a refund for all your old pints?

Of course, you can complain to management, but at the end of the day you need to ask yourself: do I have fun in this bar, and is it worth my coming here and spending a few extra bucks on some beers (on top of the cover charge! gasp!), or should I take my business elsewhere.

Of course, here in the forums, someone would try to convince the bar owner that since they paid the cover charge, they deserved to get all their beers for free (because they weren't really paying attention to the music anyway... it was just background). And if this policy wasn't adopted, all the other customers would leave and the bar would go out of business and the owner would be a sad, sad man. No puppies and ice cream for owner.

You're wrong, Schwanson.

Let me transcribe the ad copy for you...

"SECOND LIFE: WHERE YOU'LL GET A BONUS ADDED TO YOUR STIPEND FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER UNTIL THE SUN EXHAUSTS ITSELF, PLUS TWO MILLENNIA AFTER THAT. SIGN UP NOW FOR YOUR PERPETUAL BONUS STIPEND!"



It's really astonishing how people can pay only $10 for dozens, even hundreds of hours of entertainment, productivity and socialization, then get all pissed off because one day their $10 fails to buy them that 508th hour of perfect bliss.

Man alive, this is the cheapest, most valuable thrill available on the internet. Get some perspective: You're not entitled to the moon and the stars because one time, long ago, you paid $10.

Movie: $10, two hours
Second Life: $10, infinite hours

Go whine to the local cinema if you're pissed that you're being ripped off for ten bucks. Enough of the whining here.

How about some cheese with your whine?

Many other suggestions were offered, kindly and nicley admist all your flames to be burried?

It's quite obious that what some merchants want is a way to gull people into spending l$ which they can only through buying them through RL$ or through slavering away in SL.

Which many don't want to -HAVE- to do either of those. Again it's an issue of forcing people into a situation they don't think is right.

I can tell you right now that if the Lindens took the -last- 500 stipend from full account holders the whole forums would be ablaze with the protests. And don't even try to say they wouldn't. Most of you on the Lindens side on this would be here raising caine agaist unfair changes. Exatly what many of us basic account holders are doing now.

You all that have been, have NO RIGHT to tell us not to voice our complaints of this.

A good suggestion was offered that you all shout down without any considering it.

And that was a Mid-Teir account for us folks with 'Trial' accounts (accounts formerly called Basic) that don't want land at all, but still have a stipend, which costs resectively less.

It's a good solutiuon, and a darned good one. Instead of just down right bashing every idea posted, why not consider it.

So just what are objections to that idea again?

I give up. I'm out of here and not coming back. This has to be trolling, no other explanation for the continual topic switching. Anyone know the correct trolling term for this tactic ? Maybe I'll look in wikipedia and come back and tell you. Perhaps this could become a classic example, taught to our kids ?

Trolling? Just who has been offering suggestions that have been totaly shouted down?

#1 First Post:

What I just posted about about a Mid-tier accout is right in the vain of the original topic.

A Mid-Tier account is good suggestion that might just fit the bill. [Edit] Though that would probably only appeal to those that don't care to own land.

either way, this discussion has gotten pretty boring

3 things number1.

1. Since LL is NOW giving away basic accounts, I think its fiar to either like a refund, OR some kind of relaistic perk for paying Maybe a charter account that allows me to own land, but I don't get a stipend increase?.

2. Cover charge my butt. This is a subscription, and It was life time deal. Cover charge is jsut for one night. Again if I got my $10.00 they could take away my stipend all togther and I proably, after my initial shock, would not say a word about it. honeslty that's my complaint with someof you poeple I WORKED for 2 hoursin 90 degree heat throwing bags to get on SL, snd I don't care for the freeloading/welfare commentary. IF I could ever get a cursed job here, I Might think about buying some L$, I don't have a job, but if I get another HARD labor job, I ain't gonna be too keen to spend exteremely hard earned money on a sink hole.

3. Land tier payers, don't you get it, you make a lot more money off the basic users then otherland tier users. A LOT of that stpend moeny I know geos RIGHT into DAreal Neo's gambling machines. If you take away all the basics you guys you lose money ahnd over fist.

Some on equilated that to free beer. Bullcrap, beer gets consumed an only benifits the drinker, the L$ gets spendt and geos right into YOUR pockets 75% of the time. the rest is saved up toputin your pckets later. Grow up. If basic users went on strike you guys would lose your hats, and even if they are you own behinds, you'd still lose your hats.

Again think about how money works, before you mouth off.

A lot of people seem to have some misconceptions about certain things. I'm not an expert, not by any means, and I can honestly say...I doubt many, if any, of you are either.

1. The USD has fallen in value in the past months/years. This has caused the value of L$ compared to the value of USD$ to become out of balance. It is not suprising to see the people who basically run the economy to want to fix the problem.

2. While I agree that the economy should be fixed by the Lindens, rather than raped by the netizens (this thread is a great example why we as a whole should not run the economy), it is disturbing to see way things seem to be going. Picture this: Joe B signs up for SL. Joe B sees a car he likes. He then goes to GOM and purchases some L$. Of course, to sell L$ on GOM you have to earn or buy some L$. Therefore, we create an infinite loop in our society, where the money is distributed by the developers, and then paid back to the developers. Granted, not ALL developers sell their L$ on GOM. This is a purely hypothetical situation, but not completely impossible.

3. The Lindens will likely not gain or lose users (in the long run) from this decision. Even if a fair number of people leave, it will merely leave an "opening" for another new user. That is the simple fact of business. Though LL may not gain or lose customers in the long run, the small amount of time that that "slot" isn't taken up on the servers will reduce the cost for running and maintaining the service. This is a good thing for everyone.

4. Removing the stipend completely is most unlikely. As has been said: Many users utilize it as their main source of income. I won't state my opinion on this, since it really doesn't matter in the big picture. What I do see as a problem is the nature of the economy. Unless you want to devote time to developing (being a clothier, modeller, scripter, etc) or subject yourself to a degrading and morally ridiculous second life of stripping, escorting, etc. you have little choice in what you'd like to do to make money. Perhaps there should be an innovative method for making money added into the game? Utilizing real world economic strategies in a virtual world is like someone yelling "EFFFFFFF!!!!" in the middle of a park, jumping into the air, and then trying to fly. It simply won't work. This is why many (most, actually) of the large MMO styled metaverses forbid selling game content for real money (some even go so far as to partner with eBay to an extent, so as to forbid the sales)

And MOST importantly....last but not least....

5. I LOVE PINK.

(Disclaimer: I'm not taking any sides. I think the debate is pointless. I just wanted to point out a few things that were either mistakes, or overlooked.)

Personally I think we need more money sinks. Ideally in the form of new and additional features that do not exist yet, made available for a small fee to those who choose to use them.

Darm, I think you have every right to voice any complaint that's on your mind if that's how you feel. Nothing should be wrong with that. You just have to be prepared for criticism of your complaint if you post it publically.

I do disagree with your position. Like you, I am more of a 'social' player in SL, so I understand the realities that go along with that. I came here with no skills, and don't consider myself a content creator.

The primary reason I disagree, is because I don't believe it has to be difficult to gather money in Second Life without the bonus stipend. And I don't mean getting a job, becoming a content creator, or purchasing currency with US$.

If you are a social animal, I'd assume you frequent clubs on a regular basis. In addition to the many games and contests going on in SL where you can win cash without spending any, many clubs have free money machines - some more generous than others. Hanging out at these sorts of places over a period of a week will gather you far more than your stipend bonus on a basic account ever could. Since you are a social resident of Second Life, these activities shouldn't be foreign to you.

When I was a newbie - this was my sole source of income. I had a basic account - and at the time, I didn't even realize currency trading existed.

It used to frustrate me to no end when Linden would make changes that caused me to alter my style of play. In time though, I started to figure out that SL is all about change - and it made it much less stressful for me to view those changes as a challenge rather than a roadblock. I enjoy SL a lot more by taking that stance.

I know there's potential for exploitation with this idea...but...

What if there was some sort of "socializer" profession? Here's an example of how it would work:

When a group of people (3 or more) are gathered in a certain radius of one another, each sentence (which is checked against the previous 10-15, or random number, of lines for redundancy) adds a "modifier" to the conversation. When the people part ways (the group drops to below 3, or the person moves out of the radius of the conversation) the modifier is converted into "credits" which can be spent on Linden content, and/or exchanged for L$ at authorized locations/sellers. This way, it would offer a pseudo profession for those that ONLY want to socialize. Of course, the amount of credits earned would be insignificant compared to the amount of L$ one could make with other professions, but it's a fairly simple way to enhance the calm of those that don't want to work a normal SL job. Perhaps a community review board could be created from some of the most notable and experienced netizens to facilitate the validation of proposed content (from designers). One of the stipulations for the content could be that the asset id cannot be sold for L$, cannot be copied, cannot be transfered, etc. It seems like quite a bit, but in reality it seems to be a fairly sound idea. Not only will content creators have an additional outlet (making getting content to new players easier), but new users will feel like a part of the community. The truth is that socializers make the game just as much as the content creators. The argument has been made that without developers, the world would be empty. However, without people to use and buy such content, the same theory applies. Without consumers, there is no economy either. By putting a simple credit system in place, with a CSRB (credits system review board) formed from volunteer active members, you create a sort of pseudo-government (by the people, for the people type thing).
Content could then be voted on, suggested, etc. Allowing people to exchange the credits for L$ (as I said, it would be insanely unbalanced to be safe. such as 200 credits may buy a shirt, but would only exchange to something like 10L$. And 200 credits could take a whole day or more to earn through socialization.) That way it becomes self-defeating to even attempt to defraud the system to convert the credits to L$, then sell the L$ for RL cash. (A month of hardcore talking would only net you something like 0.20USD, but could buy you a good 10-15 outfits from LL/authorized vendors)

Again, just my thoughts...but it's innovative for this type of environment, and rewards people for simply participating in the world. That helps everyone!



P.S. I still love pink.

P.P.S. This is simply a "rough draft" type thing...it's not meant to be used "as is" by any means. So for the love of all that's holy...don't jump on me just because I missed a simple detail, etc, etc. It's 4:15am...my imagination ran wild.

{emphasis mine}

Perhaps you responded to it, but I've not seen your answer to my query regarding your so-called solution - namely, Volume only works if a system can handle it without choking. At this point, given that LL doesn't actually know (based on the last stress test) if Second Life can handle 5000 concurrent users, let alone more than the current 40k+, bringing in a flood of new users could result in the entire grid going down.

Are you suggesting LL grow so fast that they can't maintain the grid and hence cause people to be so disgusted with lag, delays logging in, and all the rest that they simply cancel their accounts altogether?

There is such a profession in RL and it could be transferred to SL. I've posted about it. If people are desperate for Lindens to fuel their addiction to shopping, they might consider it.



Don't we have something like this in RL? I forget the name....



And what happens when the review board has to make decisions on whether to allow content using RW trademarks or copyrights? If they give a stamp of approval for illegal trademark use, can they be AR'd right along with the content creator who submitted the content? Even if they didn't know that the content was illegal? And what about questionable items such as sex toys (you know that in some states it's illegal to sell them, yes?). Who decides what's appropriate and what's not? Who will we agree to censor us?!?



I disagree. There are plenty of people who make content but do not sell it. I do it. So even if no one else does, the world wouldn't be empty. There'd just be less.



hmmmm, a world with only content creators. I like that idea. The economy isn't of any real use to me at the moment.



I'd vote that there should be no clothes for sale. Everyone would be naked. Now that would get people to socialize and it would cost nothing!

yes zeta, that was me. Let's "mouth off" a little more:

Beer: Someone grows the grain, then someone brews the beer, then someone distributes the beer, then someone sells the beer in a store or bar, then finally someone drinks it. At each step in the chain, someone puts in effort and the next person along pays that person for their effort. Finally you get to the consumer, who buys it and enjoys the final product.

Now the way SL works, instead of having the bar owner sell the beer to the consumers, the owner invited lots of people to set up little stalls under their roof and sell their own beer. The owner charged monthly rent to the stall owners, some of whom sell beer, and some of whom just rent the space to set up some chairs and hang out with their friends away from the common areas. The bar owner also allowed people who didn't pay "stall rent" to sell beer just walking around the floors -- and he didn't even ask for a commission!

Instead of having people pay cash, the owner created tickets that were used to buy beer. Those who pay a monthly cover charge get a bunch of new tickets each week. The owner also offered some people a single, cheaper cover charge that got them in free forever (as long as the bar was in business). Those who bought the cheaper cover charge also got some new tickets every week, but a smaller amount.

People that came to the bar could redeem their tickets for beer. When they ran out of tickets, but wanted more beer to drink, they bought tickets from other people in the bar and stall owners.

At one point in time, an enterprising customer set up a stall to make it easier to exchange tickets, but eventually the bar owner put up his own stand in the corner to do this because he thought people were finding it too hard to buy and sell tickets. A lot of stall owners were upset about that, but kept on selling beer, crossing their fingers that the owner wouldn't next go after the Stout vendors or the Lager vendors. But while the owner did think about putting in a stereo system (the stall with the live band wasn't thrilled), he had no intention of selling his own beer.

Some customers wanted free beer, but the beer wasn't the owners to give. It belonged to the people in the stalls and walking around selling the beer. They weren't going to give out free beer, because they had put in a lot of work making or buying the beer in the first place.

Some customers wanted more tickets, but the problem was this -- when everyone had lots of tickets given by the bar owner, they didn't need to buy any extra tickets from the beer sellers.

So here you have the beer sellers, who were spending time and money to make (or in some cases, buy and resell) the beer. BUT they were actually giving the beer out for tickets. If the tickets became worthless for resale, then the beer sellers were left with no beer, and no way to recoup their costs. In essence, they realized that they just gave away their beer for free, for all the good a handful of tickets would do them. So they stopped selling beer.

The bar owner was left with a nice big hall with people who wanted to hang out, but because there was no beer, the customers started leaving to go to other bars.


p.s. I suppose I should also note that some people thought the whole thing too expensive, or simply too strange, so went to other bars instead, or no bars at all. But that was OK -- that's the way the world works.

Int he real world that works fine, but lets talk about a cople other things.

coutner point 1
Uploads for a standard object cost about a normal week's stipend that means you can basically MAKE crap for free.

Now why should I spend REAL cash taht imad einmual laor, on free made stuff, that has only about 1-5 hours invested into it, and can bes sold over and over, and over.

I'm not, and noone wiht more brains the cashis going to either.

Counter point 2

By my hanging at at "Mr. Bar" YOU get dwell. So those governemnt issued tickets aren't getting you a goose egg.



For once I completely am in agreement, even though I really don't like you generally.

Since the posters in question have established that their personal circumstances should be a considered when forming an opinion on this issue, I will ask a question that I would otherwise not have considered to be anyone's business. How it is that the posters in this thread who are unemployed are able to afford the wideband internet required to play sl? Are you living in an area where free broadband access is available? My county is currently considering this as an incentive for attracting high tech industries so I'm curious.

Also, Zeta, since you are in agreement with Anshe's position but not too comfortable working with her, nothing personal I'm sure , you should know that she is no longer with the Metaverse Justice Watch having formed another group. Perhaps you might want to run this clear case of justice for basic players by the MJW's new officers, Juani Wu and Pandastrong Fairplay, to see if it's appropriate for their platform.

I disagree. There are plenty of free textures. And even more people selling objects that use free textures. Maybe "you" can only make crap for free, but please don't generalize in this way.



No one says you have to. The real issue here is that the people most upset by the loss of their ratings bonus are the one who Desire that "stuff, that has only about 1-5 hours invested in it". If it's not worth your "REAL cash taht imad einmual laor"supersic?), then don't bother buying it. It's so simple. No one is forcing you. Or, better yet, make your own content if it's so worthless. Rather than waste time reading/posting here, create something in your spare hour. After all, you're basically saying it's easy.

Also, from my own experience, I can tell you that the things I might like to purchase require much more time and skill. Furthermore, if I made it - and charged the same fees as I do for my RL business - that 5 hours would cost you hundreds of real dollars. Additionally, you are assuming that people do in fact sell an item "over and over, and over". I don't believe that's the case as often as you'd like to believe it is. And I'd have to sell a whole lot of one object to recoup my time invested. If you're unaware of the way things scale, one rule of thumb for small businesses is to figure out how much you want to earn an hour and multiply by a number between 3 and 5 (usually 5, what with health insurance so high). So someone working at a fast food place might still have to charge based on a $50/hr rate (assuming they only make $10 working for someone else). If they make something in SL - well, 5 hours of their Business time is $250. That's alot of Lindens and no guarantee that sales will generate that kind of return.



Please check your spelling. If we can't read/understand what you are communicating, it's a waste of time for everyone.



Not for the roaming sellers. And I don't believe renters get dwell either.



And THIS is the reason I'm really responding. There is absolutely NO REASON for you to offer up how you feel about another player. It's rude and unnecessary. The poor quality of your posts and unnecessary stabs like this do nothing but diminish my opinion of you. I suspect I'm not alone.

Good Question, sorry I let it get burried.

My thoughts are a Mid-Teir account with an alloance but no land rights would not effect the population at all, but be a way for those that don't or can't pay the full rate, to upgrade to an account that has some of the benefits.

I think the giving Basic accounts away free is going be the major contributer to more warm bodies in SL, and any resulting problems that may bring, then would a mid-range account.

Its pretty obvious the rating bonus was going to go away.

Its also obvious Dwell will be going away.

The 50$ L for basic account holders will likely come later.

I believe the Premium account Stipend will be and always will need to be to be substantially less value in USD than $10 USD a month.


I dont want to shock anyone but even though theres the "its a game" mentality thrives - theres no need for Second Life to be a welfare state simulation.

People constantly say in WOW and other MMOGs you dont need to pay to make money.

Guess what, you have to spend Lots of time to make money in those games.

If you spend that much time in Second Life on attempts to make money (get a job, tringo/slingo, make content) you will most likely make equivilent money.

I make significant more per hour of effort in SL than I did in Anarchy (i was a high level there).

>>>But Colette i shouldnt have to get a job! I didnt in WOW.
Sure you did; you were working for the game killing monsters or whatever.

>>>But Colette i dont want to try to get a job from other players
Start your own business

>>>But Colette, That sounds like work.
Then Buy Lindens