Stipends and Economy

Real money is spent on similarly intangible items from all kinds of games. Look on eBay.

And stipends aren't being removed. Only the bonuses.

I ask again, if there's no RL money being spent by the consumer, how do we perpetuate the content creation? We lose some of the best content to inability to pay for server resrouces all the time. Spittoonie comes leaping to mind... that place was fun. I never saw that island empty. But since they weren't making money, when RL changed on them it had to go.

I'll bet you spend money on entertainment all the time - on things that don't have any redeemable value. Like going to see a movie. Having a stick of gum or playing with novelty toys.

I think SL is roughly the same thing. Only a better deal since you can stop paying and still have fun if you really want to. And I don't mean building or scripting or having an SL job. I mean socialising and playing with the toys you already bought, or just saving up your stipend and buying a little at a time.

Just my two cents. I like the rating system, when i first came on. People liked my avatar, they liked my behavior. No marketable skills to build/script. Guess what? I got rewareded for good behaviour. I've been on a bunch of big online comunities in the past and they've been ruined by people who think they can act with impunity. You're going to win a lot more people over with honey than vinagar. I dont understand the underlying 'digital economic' arugments, but from what i've heard the outrage in SL, its a bad move.

I know it's only the bonuses, I have heard lindens say they can and will cut into stipends if the economy calls for it though there are no plans to do so now.

I'm not speaking for everyone, but I personally, cannot afford to put more $RL money into this game. I'd never buy a fully leveled up character to another game on Ebay and I was thankful for a game where, aside from my monthly fee and land tier fee (which is still less than most online games), I could purchase what I wanted to given the stipend given me each week. Many times I have to save up a few weeks before going to buy that new outfit that I just have to have. I have started creating because I want to continue playing if/when stipends are gone, but I would not expect to make any RL money off any of it because it's something I created in a game. Would I purchase a game car for $2.00 US, nope! But when I've already paid the membership fee, and already paid the tier fee, and I get a weekly stipend, sure I'll buy. So I guess what I'm saying is if they take away stipends, my silly little prefab houses aren't making any money, and my in-game money supply dries up, I suppose I'm through with SL.

Jillian Callahan:

So, we should ruin the 70% peoples enjoyment for the 30% that create and sell content?

That doesn't make sense either. Which is what i've been trying to say. Lindens and the SL comunity needs to find another solution that doesn't impact the masses so significantly.

It sounds like they may just need to seperate the L$ from the real dollars and allow for commerce in real $ or L$ within the game.

That would allow people that wish to build and sell content for L$ if they're not in it for the money, or to sell for real $ if that is thier goal.

Otherwise people will start leaving, as some have indicated in this thread. An empty SL isn't going to anyone anygood. Content makers or socialites.

Basicaly the L$ vs Real dollar blanace isn't working, so lets find something that does work for both sides.

This is crap! I want everything for free! People should give me whatever I want, because I want it! How dare they take away my stuff? I want it for free!

I deserve to have it for free. Now how will I get all the stuff I want?

Given that the 30% pretty much make up the "creative" segment of SL - in the sense that EVERY. DAMN. THING. in this game will be made by a "content creator" by definition, and obviously some do more of that than others - keeping those folks happy is the only way that 70% is going to get any enjoyment.

Look, I've been avoiding saying this because too many who aren't members of the group I have in mind might be accidentally offended... and I do not belive the people I'm about to discuss are in the majority by any means.

The ones leaving will be the ones who feel entitled to the efforts of the content creators. The leaches. I dont' care if they leave.

SL is just a big swath of empty ground without people making content. If you really appreciate the things to do and to have in SL, you'll not squawk about having to pay what amounts to a pittance for it.

I also have repeated in most every post so far: You can have fun in SL without even a tiny stipend.

Let's say that again

You can have fun in SL without even a tiny stipend.

If you want to buy things, be prepared to earn the right by creating, buying L$ or just saving up your stipend. If you just want to socialise, then money makes no difference. Socialising is free.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

If you want "stuff", then buy it.

LF

Why should I stop calling it welfare, if that's what it is?

Also, why do you insist on either lying or being blind
to the fact that it is NOT "the only way new and old
people can get enough lindends...."

First, I am continuing on the assumption we are still
only talking about the bonus stipends from ratings.
I must admit I have no idea how much you are
currently getting each week from your positive
ratings, but let's say it's L$500.

1) I can easily make $500/wk sitting at various moneyball
locations over night (while I sleep).

2) It's easy to make L$200/hr hosting some event,
so that's 3 hours of yout time per week.

3) Spending US$4.00 at GamingOpenMarket.com will
get you L$1000 (or more).

And that's to say NOTHING about other ways such
as creating and selling something, buying/selling/renting
land, etc.

If you are unwilling to do ANYTHING for your $L then
you certainly are looking for a welfare handout. Even
in other MMOs where you have to harvest resources,
complete quests, etc you are STILL having to work
(take you time) to get money, which is no different
than hosting an event here.

Don't try to tell anyone here that bonus stipends
from ratings are the ONLY way to get $L.

Gabrielle

AND THERE ARE MORE THINGS THAN MONEY IN SL...

a little friendship goes a LOOONG way.

just sayin'! ^_^

BUT I WANT IT FOR FREE

PEOPLE SHOULD GIVE IT TO ME FOR FREE

'CAUSE I WANT IT

Christ. Torley gets so much *quality* free stuff just from being nice. This is a good point.

Anyone seen Dagny Taggart lately? I need her to make a few things for my railroad... willing to pay her L$10 for it, too...






(I suspect only people who've read Atlas Shrugged will get the irony )

No, I think she's hanging out with some dudes in Colorado somewheres. Thinking of going there too, they keep coming by my office in Bonifacio and tempting me with empassioned speaches about my own worth.

Good grief!

I don't know why I get so heated when I read what
SOME people post about what SL should be.. but I do!

SECONDLIFE IS *NOT* A GAME!

It never was intended to be a game, nor does LL desire
it to become a game.

If you are looking for a way to relax and have fun in a game,
and so far you are enjoying SL, then SUPER for you, I hope
you continue to enjoy your second life. But for those of you
who are trying to FORCE SL to be a game.. just give it up.
It won't happen... LL is NOT interested in becoming what
you want. They are not trying to make a game no matter
how much you much like for them to.

Don't take it from me... there are plenty of places you
can read messages from Philip saying things like this.
Here is a quote from a post David Linden made:

"As a side note, I would also like to take this opportunity
to correct a reference that is reflected multiple times in
your message. Second Life is not a game. It is a platform
that is used to create content, socialize and network and
allow residents to monetize their efforts by selling their
content and/or services."

...taken from here:
/invalid_link.html

Of course, you are allowed to continue to think LL
should strive to make that 70% happy.... but, infact,
you will be wrong... as they are really trying to keep
the 30% happy, and continue to grow in the "non-game"
directions David mentioned above.

<delete... delete>

AAAaaaaarrrrrgggg...

okay... I'm going to bed before my head explodes.

Gabrielle

Fine it's not a game. With that i'll agree. It neither has the high end development costs a game has, and also relies on user built content to fill it in.

Again indicating that it should no where near cost as much as a high end game for a montly full subscription.

Some of the arguments coming from the merchants are valid, but depopulating SL of the basic users is -not- the answer, as a lot of the lindens flow through them to these same content builders.

Personally I think seperating L$ from RL$ makes a heck of a lot more sense, and let Content merchants chose themselves if they will sell in L$ or for RL$.

It's just one of many ideas and would be a lot more workable then depopulating SL of Basic acounts that are just in it for socilaization alone. The Lindens have sold this place a Social setting that can also be used for comercere. They need to see to the social aspect as well as the comerce aspect.

Who you going to socialize with if they are all gone?

I've be very strait forward with the point that L.Labs is about to do something will cause a max exodus of many people. The -SAME- mistackes made on AW, There, Moove...etc...

There is historical evidence of that, and ignoring it will do no one any good, nor trying to burry it in a forum flame fest will do anyone any good.

Instead of picking apart suggestions, make some of your own. Thats what this thread is about, how to see to the socialites and the merchants both.

Is the game really that boring without Lindens?
I really wouldn't know, since I've only been here about a month and during this time I've just been having too much fun building that I haven't found anything to spend on.

Ok, social interaction apart (which is a large part if you ask me) - even if Lindens didn't exist, I think I would still build for the joy of building (sometimes a masochistic kind of joy), because it's fun to play with 'toys' that you've built, and because sharing the fun with other people is even more.. fun. In fact, I feel building in SL is another form of expression/interaction, alongside text and gestures - If I want to strap myself to a flying carrot and race with a bunnymobile, by golly, I will.

It really is up to the generosity of builders as to how accessible this sort of fun is to everyone else. How could LL regulate this if the builders can set their own prices, and LL does not offer competing products/services? I know it's supposed to be a self-regulating market, but if all builders set ridiculous prices and our friend Rampal's view is in fact the commonly held view, then I'd expect LL's client base would drop. Conversely, what if everyone started offering their items almost for free? Of course, I expect neither of these extremes are likely. I'd say, as in real world systems, sustainability depends on the balance between the generosity and greed of the producers.

So far, my only motivation to sell anything I build is to be able to pay for file uploads so I can create more stuff. Of course, If I owned land, it would be nice to have some lindens to convert into tier money.

(Oh no. I haven't filled my parenthesis quota for this post).

SL does cost less than a traditional, conventional game. (one time $10 fee)

It's merely an assertion that seperating L$ from USD is more workable. Prove it.

It is also merely an assertion that all the social users will leave. Prove it, or at least back it.

"Mass exodous", BTW. And this isn't those worlds. This one has had an economy for far longer, had it as part of the workings since near the start. It's part and parcel to the way it rewards creators for making content.

So far there's been no flaming, AFAIK... not sure where that came from.

I have sited evidence (cases where this happened before) more then once *sighs*

Meh. This is a pretty simple argument.

The Basic Account is essentially a loss leader. You pay $10 USD once for what amounts to unlimited inventory storage and unlimited (temporary) bandwidth as long as it's within your means. LL gets ten bucks once, and you have an account for the rest of Second Life's existance (or, with luck on SL's part, lifetime access).

The Premium Account, on the other hand, gives Linden Labs an annuity of cold hard cash, which they can then use to pay their bills.

The only reason LL can afford to give out Lindens in a stipend weekly is because, to them, this isn't real money. To residents, on the other hand, the Linden Dollar enables residents to buy items, upload textures to the system... etc.


Now, we went through this exact same phase several months ago, when they cut down on ratings and ratings bonuses and dropped most event funding. While the latter strikes a nerve with some residents (read: proliferation of Tringo), the economy actually did pretty well.

Clip to now. Land prices have been falling. The price of the L$ on GOM has gone down (so I hear). Typically, these are signals of inflation, or simply a devaluation of the monetary resources driving this economy.

So first off, simple Economics means the value of the L$ is going to go up. That means, after an adjustment period (at a guess, a month), prices should be about equivalent to the current value of the Linden dollar. With the exception of tier and upload expenses, remember that this economy is driven by residents. When they see their sales drop a bit, the knee-jerk reaction is to lower the price.


Second off, mechanisms currently exist for residents that need cash. The easiest is to just buy L$. If you don't want to do that, learn how to whip people at Tringo. And if gambling isn't your thing, you can always open shop and sell items to other residents.

So I'd say Enabran's sarcasm, Jillian's blunt post, and many of the other comments here are correct. If you need L$ for something, earn them. You aren't entitled to "free" money, nor are you entitled to peoples' work for free.


And of all things, don't get me started on how MMOGs handle money. I have a long history of playing MMORPGs. Most (90%) of the ways you find money in them made my eyes bleed from staring at the screen so long, grinding. Speaking from experience, it's much easier to "live richly" in Second Life than in any given MMOG, and if shopping's your thing, be prepared to earn it.



And if discussion fails, just give it a week or become one with the Preview Grid, where L$ really are monopoly money.

(cited)
And I refuted, saying those examples do not appear to apply. *sigh*

Ok so why dont they just make the rating bonus cap off at some point. Like nothing above such and such an ammount. That would be more fair to the newer members. And i see alot of you going on saying spending real money for game money. Isnt that whats really hurting the SL economy? I'd think so and really isnt any different than the current system. As it is right now those with huge ratings get large ammounts of ranking bonuses? Changing it to this new system really only benefits shose who can afford to pump more cash in which will eventually make it so they outrank those who dont have the spare cash like myself due to a temp lack of rl employment. -.-

Buying money on GOM or IGE does not create L$ - it's merely a transfer from one player to another. Therefore it isn't hurting the economy to do it.
And this is a bonus cap - capped at "none". For everyone. I'm going to lose 700L$ per week over this, by the way, so please don't think I'm sitting here saying this from some comfortable immunity.
I belive you're wrong about who it benifits. In theory as the L$ becomes a little more scarce, it becomes more valuable. Prices should drop. It will take some time, becasue the sinks have to overcome the sources, but it will probably happen.
And you can still enjoy SL without spending a dime.

This is a very interesting problem. and I feel pulled by many of the opinions in this thread because in December, when events funding cuts were announced, I was as vehement as the most vehement of these posters. and i still believe that some arts and culture funding is necessary for community building in sl. But I also see that if people want superfluous spending, they will do what it takes to get that spending.

One thing that is unarguable is that one really doesn't need a single linden to have fun in second life. nor does one need a job or a blingy avie. One of my close sl friends goes about in only the default male avies, at his most respectable looking, and still manages to pique the interests of some remarkably good-catch females by being amiable, funny, and charming (you know who you are, tighty-whities man. ;-D).

If one considers that most other games absolutely require a $10/per month fee with no or little opportunity for average players to make back that rl $10 per month, the Lindens are offering an Amazing deal. That said, a product is only as good as the satisfaction of its customers. I honestly hope that folks don't give up on second life after the ratings bonuses are cut because the stuff you can do here truly is amazingly versatile and the community is pretty lovely when taken as a whole.

I never thought i'd be offering a "you can do it, even with no skills or money"speech to folks about SL ... especially since I regarded those kinds of speeches so cynically back in December. I'm an events babe from way back, both irl and virtually, so events funding cuts were a 100% cut to my primary virtual income. Yet! I must say! it's possible! I learned more or less how to build, to make clothes, and how to hire scripters to help me with my ideas so they could become marketplace realities. anyone CAN do it... it is just an issue of desire really. and if you don't want to work in world, no problem. just like in real life, those who do not want to work have other options, but in SL they are remarkably more attractive. simply put: spend nothing. you have no virtual physical needs so all of your needs are social. one can do great stuff with the VAST quantities of freebies to make your avie look good. save money (or buy money) for 1 good skin and 1 or 2 good haircuts, and you've really got it made.

It is true that it may feel like a regressive tax... (not sure how i feel about that assertion yet, still chewing it over) but i know that if you don't get discouraged by the sense that you are in a hopeless situation, it is possible to see that there are other ways to enjoy the world. lots of them. IM me in world if you want me to help you find kewl free things to do in second life. they abound. cheers everyone. sorry for the novel length post. hehe ~Perse

Seconded, thirded, fifthed and twenty-thirded in the Name of Eris as well as quoted for truth.

Plus in SL one can pretty much afford to be as generous as (s)he wants because it doesn't cost anything I predict that in the long term, in addition to the current trend of following The Plan, SL will become more and more about who you know and who likes you than how much L$ you have.

(I shouldn't be surprised to agree 100% with someone going by the name of Persephone )