Stipends and Economy

Does anyone think that SL would be more fun and create less clashing between players if the $L had no RL value???? Would people get so upset at eachother over play money???

You wouldn't lose all content creators if you did that, but you would lose every content creator that is not happy to work for free. If Linden Labs wanted to keep the same quality and quantity of content, they would have to hire content creators that would increase all your real life fees. It would be most likely more expensive to own land. It would most likely be more expensive to join, and it would be most likely be more expensive to have a premium account. Higher fees would probably make a lot of people just as pissed off.

They could of course not hire anyone, but then you would find much less choice in what you could buy with your play money. You might find that it is hard to have a dress that almost no one else has. It would be even harder to find something new than it is now. You would probably never see any big projects that wouldn't be able to afford the fees charged them to own huge pieces of land.

Second Life is a different concept than a lot of other things on the Internet, but I think this model has a lot of potential if people can ever get to use to what is actually going on. If you want Second Life to be "more fun", you have to realize that someone is going to have to work to make it that way for you. Not everyone works for free or pleasure.

Yes, I'm sure most everyone hopes that if they had a chance
at a new life, that it would be better than their current life,
but what makes you think you should "expect" that as if it
were some kind of right?

You have certain abilities and make certain choices here
in your first life... you pay in to this life with efforts you put
in to your weekly work, for which you get a paycheck (unless
you were lucky and/or born in to wealth).

With that paycheck you pay bills, food, shelter, and with what
is left over you can spend on luxury, entertainment, and fun.

I think you DO get "more" from your second life.
Yes, you have to pay in to it, the same as you pay in to your
first life.... either with work in SL, or buying $L on GOM (which
is gained from work in FirstLife)... but after you pay in, there
is no need for food, shelter (bills)... so your entire effort gets
to go to luxury and fun.... wether it's buying clothes, toys
or whatever.

Are you suggesting that because you are (practically) forced
to put effort in to your first life, that you should "expect" that
your second (or any other) life should be effortless? -- and
everything from clothes to $L be handed to you for free on a
silver platter?

The bottom line is that LL does not promote Second Life as
a game. Many (and you) might view SL as a game, and that
is why you might be frustrated when things happen which
are clear signs that SL is not fitting in to the proper vision
of what a "game" or "pure entertainment" should be.
LL is promoting SL as just that... a *Second Life*... with that
come many of the same things seen in first life...

You are welcome to be jobless and homeless (in which case
SL is a MUCH nicer place to live!).... but don't expect life to
very fun, unless your entire reason for being is the social side
of it. Or, you can put in some effort, and reap the rewards.

It's just LIFE.... it's what YOU make it.

Gabrielle

You wouldn't lose all content creators if you did that, but you would lose every content creator that is not happy to work for free. If Linden Labs wanted to keep the same quality and quantity of content, they would have to hire content creators that would increase all your real life fees. It would be most likely more expensive to own land. It would most likely be more expensive to join, and it would be most likely be more expensive to have a premium account. Higher fees would probably make a lot of people just as pissed off.

They could of course not hire anyone, but then you would find much less choice in what you could buy with your play money. You might find that it is hard to have a dress that almost no one else has. It would be even harder to find something new than it is now. You would probably never see any big projects that wouldn't be able to afford the fees charged them to own huge pieces of land.

Second Life is a different concept than a lot of other things on the Internet, but I think this model has a lot of potential if people can ever get the concept of what is actually going on. If you want Second Life to be "more fun", you have to realize that someone is going to have to work to make it that way for you. Not everyone works for free or pleasure. Someone will always be working while you are playing, whether they are employees or residents that charge you a fee for what they make.

Tell ya what!

I, and my small circle of friends create a few items (with more to come).
We're all fairly new, but excited and energized about what Second Life
has to offer... needless to say our building skills and knowledge of best
selling practices are still far on the newbie side of things.

Here's my offer...
I'll give you a couple items to show off to people, and if you can get
anyone to buy them, I'll give you 50% commision. In fact, I'll extend
that offer to anyone who's interested, just IM me this next week and
we'll talk.

Gabrielle

well said

Darm,

First let me say I do feel your pain. It's never a good feeling to get
started in something... find it to be fun and relaxing... and then have
that thing change in to something that's not fun and relaxing.
I'm sorry to hear you're going through that.

At the same time, let me point out that LL does not intend SL
to just be fun and relaxing. It 'should' be widely known that
Philip and other at LL are not calling SL a "game", and indeed
David Linden has been quoted here:
/invalid_link.html



Aside from the "socialize" inclusion, I don't see anything that
indicates any "fun" here.

Don't get me wrong.... There IS indeed lots to do that is fun
in SL, and in fact, it's the content creators who are creating
these things that most people find "fun".

I hate to be so blunt here, but perhaps LL is not designing SL to
be for you, the "relaxer". They are designing for the people
who are in the "biz/social groups". I'm sorry if that hurts your
feelings, but this is what Lindens are saying.... are you going
to continue to just ignore what they say?

Now, again... don't get me wrong! All the content creators
LOVE to have you "relaxers" here! In fact, the biz people here
are specifically making content for the "relaxers" to enjoy, and
have fun with, while making their money at the same time.

LL is also getting money from some of the "relaxers" who decide
to get monthly accounts, and I'm sure they are happy for the
extra money to help pay bills, but..... this is a side benifit for them.
It also helps bring in extra money while the world is still new,
and there are not as many biz people here as they'd really like.
They also probably do not mind losing a little money from the
1-time-pay basic accounts in order to have more "relaxers" who
like to play/buy things from the biz people, because as long as
the biz people are happy and making money, they will stay.

And finally, you mentioned not wanting to be a part of the
economy, but any time you buy something or spend money
you ARE a part of the economy. I think what you meant is
that you don't want to have to work in the economy, but
you do want to be able to play/spend in it. That is a fine
thing to desire, but probably not very realistic.







Yes, a valid feeling. As I said above, I don't smile at the fact you
feel slighted, but I think as time goes on you will see SL turn even
more toward favoring the biz side. The only way you are going to
get "entertainment" here in SL is from content creators making
things to entertain you... most will want compensation for the time
they are spending to create these things.

I'm SURE us content creators are going to go to GREAT efforts
to make you relaxers happy... so you stay and spend money
with us, so don't worry... there will be a lot of fun things to
do and see here =) -- but, just as in first life... most
entertainment will cost money. while just socializing is usually
always free.





I'm fairly new... Basic Accounts have always only
given L$50/wk and Premium L$500/wk. If this use to
be higher... and LL made it sound like you'd get that
"base stipends" forever, then yes... I can see how you'd
feel slighted with that. LL needs to change the wording
on their pricing page to indicate the stipends shown is
the "current" amount, but that they have the right to
change that amount at any time. I've posted a HotLine
message indicating such.





Darm, I forget... do you pay a monthly rate ?
Or did you just pay one-time ?

If you pay a monthly rate, then I suggest you stop. And instead
go to GOM to buy $L.

Right now you are paying $10.95/mo and
you get L$500/wk (2166/mo average for year)

If you went to a basic account (free) and spent that same $9.95/mo
for $L at GOM you could get L$2842 at today's rate. Perhaps not
a BIG difference, but what more do you want for a measly $10?


On the otherhand... if you paid a 1-time fee, and now have been
enjoying SL for nothing over the past several months (or do I
remember your account being over a year old?) .... then why
are you complaining about not being able to buy anything if
you're not willing to spend any money?

Of course... there is always the option of socializing, tringo, clubs,
exploring, building (for fun) etc.. that many people think are a lot
of fun and don't cost anything.

If none of this sounds acceptable to you, then perhaps you
are wanting too much and willing to give to little.

Gabrielle

[edit]

With regard to getting the most $L for your $US....
Here are some options:

1) pay LL $9.95/mo for a Premium Membership and
get L$2166, which is about L$217 per US$1

2) buy US$9.95 worth of $L on GOM where (today) you get
about L$2842 which is around L$285 per US$1

3) pay LL $72/yr for a Premium Membership and
get $L2166/mo, which is about L$361 per US$1

I'm not so sure....I think people would stay and create and the lack of pressure to make money would just fuel creativity. I posted this poll a while back and it shows that VERY few joined SL to make RL money, while a large majority joined because of the ability to create or to socialize. /120/d5/60577/1.html The qestion is are they still here for the reasons they joined? If so, taking away the RL$ aspect of the game might not hurt SL much at all.

My guess is, the motivation does change. When the pure thrill of being able to build and create gets not quite so new, you discover the new and thrilling challenge of trying to run a successful business.
Still huge fun, but for a different reason. Take away the financial rewards, all the business fun is gone. You would lose tons of creators, not because they are greedy, but because they have extended the original challenge for a more complex one.

And, incidentally, this involves a skill which is much more widely and easily applicable to Real Life. Lots of the business skills learned here are transferable, whilst the openings for Poser-freaks or prim-joiners are, in honesty, somewhat limited.

That's ignoring all the creators who need an income to fund their habit here in the first place, or even to help meet RW expenses. So you see "taking away the RL$ aspect of the game" would almost certainly destroy it.

Ellie - I suppose that makes sense. In RL I started playing the flute because I wanted to play it...as I got better I wanted to compete...and I went on to turn my musical knowledge into a successful teaching career both private and public, so that would mirror many aspects of RL. Thanks for helping me to understand better.

<<I hate to be so blunt here, but perhaps LL is not designing SL to
be for you, the "relaxer". >>

Ok, the fact that I am stepping in now is going to be slightly off-topic, yet I will forgive you, Gabrielle, because as far as I know you do not "know" Darm other than from this thread. However, I have known him basically from the day he joined SL, which is 1 year as of next week. I consider him to be one of my best friends and favorite companions here.

"Relaxer" is the WRONG word to describe him. He is generous and always has been, devoted and always has been, loyal and always has been, and has recently (FINALLY) become a very hard-working and dedicated DJ for my radio station. Even before he was a DJ, for as long as I have known him, he has bent over backwards to contribute to worthy events, DJ's, causes, you name it. He has a heart of gold....he has a Basic membership which as we know means a base stipend of 50L a week....so yes, everything he has graciously contributed to has been largely due to his bonuses.

He has the TALENT & KNOWLEDGE to be a "content creator"...I have watched him build and he has taught me many a trick or two. However he prefers to spend his time after coming home from a long day at work socializing with his friends. Do NOT discredit him for this or call him a "relaxer"! He is the FIRST one to step up to the plate to help others, whether it be through $L or through his knowledge and intelligence.

I understand why LL is taking away the bonuses....I am not happy about it because its also the way I have funded my events, club, and made donations. However I resolved not to throw a fit about it for exactly this reason....it only causes a flame-war and nothing gets accomplished. But I will not sit back and let a dear friend of mine be misrepresented.

While I agree that this is a completely valid application of a real world ability, very few real world abilities apply in SL. I've yet to see a gymnast, vocalist, construction worker, fast food cahsier, seamstress, etc. profit in SL from their real world skills that relate to their job, let alone the fact that many hobbies which could be turned into a real life job aren't applicable in SL either, such as: electronics, computer repair/building, video games, music (DJ's are NOT technically musicians, but audio production specialists), RC cars, baseball card collecting, antiques, automobile repair, and many more.

I'm not saying people can't make money. I'm just saying that a RL hobby will often times lead to absolutely nothing in SL, aside from talking to other people with similar hobbies. The people with hobbies such as like those i described, that work in a job with no applicable use to SL will have to spend significant time often just to learn how to make money. They could easily run out of money long before they ever make a single Linden off of their work.

I don't disagree with removing the bonuses. I simply think (even before this idea of removing them was public knowledge) that SL would benefit from a few improvements in the areas pertaining to income methods and occupations would be of great service to everyone, including Linden Labs. (With enough occupations that are readily accessible to even new players, LL can stop all stipends and freeze the market rate of L$. What do I know? I'm just a radiology student in college with no applicable talents that had to learn all the aspects of developing just to develop for SL. ;P

Slightly strange contribution, Epiphany. I think you may have misread something. No-one here has suggested any such thing. SL-learned business skills being useful in RL, yes. Other way round, for non-business skills ? No-one has mentioned it but you.

The justification for removing the ratings bonus is because it is unfair to newer players, who have long lost the opportunity to equal it. No other factor is needed - this justification is irrefutable and sufficient. Bringing in other factors is just muddying the water.

In a way I agree, and disagree.

If Linden Labs choses to support this market of unreal L$ to RL$, then yes you are entirely right.

However from a purely consumer point of view, if a 'service' like SL cannot offer a set X value in the service for Y value of subscription fees, then it's not much of a service.

One solution would be for L.Labs to get honest and decide if this is going to be a comerce platform, a social platform, or continue to be a mix.

If continuing a mix, adjustments will need to be made on both sides of the fence. So far the adjustments have been supporting one side at expense of the other.

Again, and meant kindly, this thread is not just about just the loss of the bonus stipend, it's also about the loss/reduction of the fixed stipends.

While I agree in principal, the commerce platform will fall if there is no social platform, however I think the social platform would continue just fine without the commerce platform, people would just have to get used to less intricate clothing, normal skins, normal hair, or create them for themselves.



To keep people from jumping all over you lets change this to read

Again, and meant kindly, this thread is not just about just the loss of the bonus stipend, it's also about the hypothetical/possible future loss/reduction of the fixed stipends.

I don't think the base stipend was ever reduced.

It may have been reduced, as repeatedly claimed/implied, but I asked here for some evidence/confirmation and never received recognition that the question had even been asked. I conclude it is probably fictional.

Also, I have never seen any indication from a Linden that reduction of base stipend is even being considered. Some quotes would make this more worth discusssing.

The main suggester of this is Darm, and only came up once the equity of the ratings bonus was questioned. Which is why I so unkindly speak of muddying the water. As long as these two separate issues can be kept mixed up together, the enlightening discussion can continue. It is because of Darm's continual hopping round from point to point, keeping them carefully mixed up together, and making no attempt to supply any evidence when he makes a claim, that I have been so ungracious as to speak the word "trolling". Harsh, but this continues so relentlessly despite other input, that it might just be true.

Ratings bonus unfair. Therefore kill it.
Base stipend cut not threatened, no evidence to suspect it. Therefore forget it.

Unless someone wants to supply genuine counter-evidence. Linden quotes ? I'm ready to be wrong.

If I recall correctly, I received about 350L as a basic player when I joined in December. I believe the stipend was reduced to 50L in January in the same time frame that event support changed. The reduction contributed to my decision to become a premium member.

It wasn't until recently that Sony and others chose to support an exchange that was already occurring on eBay. Based on the historical difficulty (and near impossibility it seems) of regulating these exchanges, whether LL supported it or not I'm fairly certain it would be going on.

Based on your previous comment which assumes LL can ever control the value, and the wealth of evidence that shows this isn't really feasible for them, this comment is of little validity imo.

Let's imagine for a moment that LL decided to do what Sony did with EQ; make it illegal and start printing huge sums of money for play. Oh, we'd all get the L$500 or L$1000 we were promised. But when a new skin inflated to L$5,000,000+, that "set X value" still isn't really set is it? The only way they could truly control the economy then would be if they created and controlled the distribution of the content, right? Oh wait, isn't that what the MMORPG's did? So then I guess maybe LL could start enforcing their ToS and sue those doing illegal exchanges (like those for EQ that were illegal but being reported on in the press). But then LL would have to pay for all the legal fees. Wouldn't that then raise their costs? And what happens then? Wouldn't LL have to pass those costs on to the users? And wouldn't this additional cost not even be seen by users since it wouldn't be for development, but for attempting to enforce the ToS that other users were violating?

So this comment of yours: really isn't valid either. It's not Linden Lab that makes this decision, it's the users. And it's obvious that those who are complaining the loudest to keep their bonus are wanting to engage in "commerce" (relax by shopping). Those that decide to make it a social platform probably don't care about the Lindens they receive as they've paid their one-time fee and the have access which is all they desire. That Linden Lab has made is Open (aka "a mix" only means that we get to decide how we use the world. Perhaps not wanting to acknowledge the role you have in contributing to the Commerce version is the real problem.

Why is this falsehood perpetuated? Removing ratings bonuses is not at my expense (and I make no money in SL) - it's at the expense of those who received unwarranted currency for far too long. When the privileged start crying because they don't have cake, maybe they need to reacquaint themselves with bread.

As for the issue with stipends, I don't see anyone really arguing that Linden Lab isn't mistaken in how they've apparently handled that. So minus the stipend, all that's left is bonus's.

Hello Queenie,

I think you totally misunderstood the word I used
If you read my post again you will see I quote Darm
where he says there are basically two types of people
here in SL, the "biz type" and the "relaxer", and also
that he falls in to the "relaxer" category. So, I was
refering to the category he chose and put himself in.

Also, the way he (and I) meant the word relaxer,
is as someone who comes to SL to relax.. just
as the word means. I don't know you, so maybe
you don't know exactly what that word means.
If not, please check the dictionary (and that is not
meant as a put down). We are refering to people
who want to play around, have fun, chill out after
a long hard day at work... and RELAX ... as opposed
to someone who comes to SL to work, and create
a biz.. with all the extra stress and hassle and time
commitments that it requires.

I think you confused our use of "relaxer" with "slacker",
which has a bit more of a negative meaning as someone
who gets around doing work they probably should be,
or perhaps a "bum".

Hope that helps clear up your mis-reading.

Gabrielle

The key word here is "reduction". Some are being negative and assuming a change in the stipend automatically means reduction. That SPIN makes worthwhile discussion especially difficult.

It's unfortunate we can't keep to the facts especially after something like this has been repeatedly pointed out.

Ah - thank you, Margaret. Some facts at last. I went more or less straight to premium when I saw the effective price of the bundled Lindens.
If that is correct, I can see why some basic players might be upset. But it has nothing to do with the ratings bonus, and its current fundamental inequity.

Surely there wasn't only L$150 extra for the premium subscriber was there ? That stipend wasn't reduced too ?

Edit: I stopped being lazy, and went to check the history wiki to find an accurate record of changes in subscriptions/stipends. Sadly, it is just about the only topic which seems to be totally absent. Anyone got a source we can access ?

Darm,
Perhaps you have set me to "ignore" ?
Perhaps my posts have been too long to read?

I (and others) have replied to this several
times already.... are you ignoring it, or just
not accepting it?



I'm not "positive" about what you mean with the
word "unreal"... but if you are thinking $L is "unreal"
as in "play money".... you're mistaken. $L is just
as real as if someone handed you 500 yen right now.
You could not take it to Walmart and buy a shirt,
but you can take it to a bank and they will give you
$US. The same is true for $L. Take it to GOM and
you can get $US for your $L.



I have post (within the last 5 messages) that
David Linden has been quoted:


Philip has said many things along the same lines.
They have not wavered from this. They have already
made up their minds. There is no more "deciding"
to do.... SecondLife IS going to be a platform for
commerce AND socializing.

(I think I'm talking to deaf ears/eyes)



I JUST answered this as well in my last post, but
will keep it short here.

No, LL is not obligated to make adjustments on the
"fun factor" of SL. They are only providing the PLATFORM
for people to create content / services and socialize.

That's it. Period.

It's up to the RESIDENTS (content creators) to make
the "fun" things to do in SL. Many of them want to
be compensated for their efforts, and so charge
for product.

Gabrielle

Gabrielle, would you allow me to suggest that you might like to switch Private Messaging on in the Forum Control Panel ?

Ellie,

Hmmm... guess that's not something I'm aware of.
What is the benifit? Am I missing out on things I would
otherwise be seeing? Or is that just another way
to reply in a non-public way? Would that be a way
to make sure Darm is even seeing my messages?

Sorry for all the newbie questions

Gabrielle

[edit]
Okay.. I found the section and turned it on.
I guess that also answered one of two of
my questions