Stipends and Economy

I was not going to post this, but spoke with a linden and they said i should, so will be placing it here and in the the Hotline per that persons advice.

You really think this is some sort of suprise to everyone?

LL has no more need or right to get into the tax information loop than any other platform provider out there. When was the last time a web space provider reported on appearant profits of thier users? And how about those of us who aren't an American? Laws differ all over.

Leave my income reporting up to me.

I am curious though, how many people who make RL profit from SL actually do report their income for taxes?

As someone who has been arguing the merchant position (I guess; I really just think of it as the logical position), the Tax issue is of no concern to me. I've not sold anything in SL.

However, I would be one of those "rare" individuals who pays taxes entirely in accordance with U.S. law. And as I already work on my own, I'm familiar with paying quarterly estimates and all that fun stuff. And I also do something most people don't - I keep track of my internet purchases and pay Use Tax on those as well. So if I were to start making money in SL, I'd most certainly pay taxes on my earnings.

There is one problem though... there are quite a number of merchants outside the U.S. for whom the tax issue is entirely unique. Good luck expecting LL to concern themselves with the tax issues of their subscribers. If anything fell under the "it's none of our business" policy position, this sure seems to be a worthwhile candidate.

By their own admission, several of the big fish do report their income from Second Life.

But I wouldn't know personally. I have yet to take away a single USD from Second Life, barring contest earnings (which I'm trying to defer for other purposes currently).

Csven Concord:

Good points, but the presidence May have already been set by napster. Software manufactures can be held acountable (not nessisarily liable) for how thier services are used. Probably a tax lawyer will need to look into it.

Also internet cigarette sales have also set a Taxing related presidence.

Jillian:

Let see first i'm a freeloader for having basic account (which i payed for), then i'm a a welfare recipeint, then I get ratings slammed, then you call me childish directly for pointing out a possible tax situation. Especially -AFTER- i discussed it with a linden in game before posting it to see what they thought. And they though it was important enough to post here. So are now the Lindens childish too?

As I stated there probably are a rare few that are reporting.

And even offered Linden Labs professional help (which i can bloody well prove skills of), which I have yet see you do even once.

I'm tired of the berating the name calling and the put downs, try offering some -constructive- commentary like Csven and Ellie have, or better yet, try silence.

And lasty by the definition of my RL job I am duty bound to report possible tax improprities. So deal with it.

lol Darm -- get defensive so go on the offensive? Hello Big Brother... the tax bogeyman is outta get ya! Yes, people are aware that there are tax implications here. There are, yes, probably a lot who are not sophisticated about these issues, of course, but they will learn as the SL economy grows or their income moves beyond pittance or loss and into something actually real. And yes, the Americans among them will have to learn about the crappy tax treatment America affords freelancers. (We also have a lot of people who are woefully ignorant of intellectual property rules too, and we have lots of lively threads on that issue as well)

I don't see how you are a freeloader. LL allows you to be a basic member and I'm sure you contribute to the SL world just fine. I still don't think you deserve a free stipend.

taxes have nothing to do with this particular topic, but they are an important topic, I agree, and more people need to be educated so they don't get caught with their pants down.

maybe instead of pounding your chest you might try educating people

Forseti Svarog:

Yes, perhaps I am pounding my chest a little. Should probably change my handle to Prima Donna. heh.

Why because the last time us basics fought for the Stipend we -DID- pay for we lost it. Thats still iritates many of us. Now we have to lose more to a 'fix' that has already been proven once, not to have worked at all.

And that battles was one of the ugliest seen on the forums, so much so many of the basic users are not posting this time.

I think I've done a adaquate job on trying to keep it on the up and up though. Least I hope I have.

I still surprised though at the total resitance ot the idea of less subscription rate to attract more Basics to transition to full.

I'd be quite happy to help those with questions about W2 filing, and where to do that with the SSA online even. (they have some nifty facilities for it now)

Darm,

I think you are missing the point of the basic account. The basic account is a loss leader, LL makes no money from you. Need proof? They just made getting a basic account FREE.

So that being said, how does LL benefit from a basic users account in SL? Great question!

1) You like SL so much that you decide to buy land and pay a monthly tier.
2) You create content that others enoy. This indirectly benefits SL, as it is a draw to new players.
3) You purchase $L, spurring economic activity. Purchasing goods from other content creators, thus giving them financial motivation to continue to create.

I am not at all dismissing any social activities or enjoyment you get from SL, but from LL's standpoint if you don't do one of the above, you are not benefiting LL.

By paying basic users $L, they are diminishing the value of the $L. I am all for people being basic users, and if they decide to not take part in the economy, good for them! But please do not feel you are entitled to get content for free.

If people are given free $L. then the $L doesnt hold any value, does it? The $L is only worth what people are willing to pay.

Perhaps a better route for you to take would be to encourage people to create free content.

I remain unconvinced it didn't work. I think you could argue that it wasn't enough. There are so many variables at work here that it is really hard to draw conclusions on a specific ingrediant in the economic brew.

There's a separate question of whether SL as a virtual world can be successful without stipend assistence to Basic users. That's as valid as any other question about our future. But LL's got to test their premise now don't they? Otherwise just throw in the towel and become another game company chasing WoW's dust.

They've got to at least try creating a value-for-money/money-for-value economic framework. Of course, at the end of the day, they are a business and if it looks like this policy path isn't working, I am sure they will make new changes.

Will people pay for user created content instead of game-company-created-content? The next year or two will tell us... the sky hasn't fallen yet, so I say keep on testing the vision.

Yes and I could argue that the fact they are giving away basic accounts now, as an indication that the the full account price is also over priced for what is provided by Lindens.

But i won't. LOL

We could probably go around in circles around this for the next 100 years or so if we really tried.

Hey you think they would pay us some Lindens for that? With interest? LOL

But then people might consider you a fool. I wouldn't try to argue that if I were you.

Ah yes, LL should be paying us to use their software.

Wow. Way to bring up the completely irrelevant. Also, bravo on useless advice. The state of Florida collects no income tax, so even if I were keeping my cash a secret, Jeb couldn't care less. Hurray for ignorant, blanket remarks!

FYI, though, all my SL earnings have been and will continue to be declared to Uncle Sam. Nothing that'll throw me into a higher bracket, but he can have his little chunk from my siegeBot sales.

As for Linden Lab doing my withholding for me, they no more owe me (or the government) that service than ICANN should be compelled to calculate withholding for every US business person that transacts their affairs on the web.

Any other sensationalism you want to throw our way?

It shouldnt be having any real value outside of the game. Because if it were to have any significant value, as it was said earlier it would lead to having to pay taxes on that "income" whether you buy it from some place, work, or make things. As i said earlier its just a game and its being taken too seriously. Other games like rpg's have money earned from random battles and it doesnt kill off an ecconomy. and the further it tries not to be a game, the more likely there'll eventually be audits.

I'd fully support the cuts as a measure to preserve values in SL... but then I was just stumped onto LL adding 18 new sims in the north, which then will run the landvalues further in the ground since there doesnt seem to be a need for them with constantly 4000 to 5000 parcels for sale anywise.
You cannot support a currency with one measure and run it into te ground with another, this makes it ridiculous in my eyes...

When did I call you a freeloader?
When did I call you a wellfare recipient?

Dragging in an irrelivancy, what amounts to a vague threat, is childish. You will note, by the way, that I removed that line of my own free will. I am sorry you ended up seeing it, as I did conclude it was equally irrelevant to the argument. Apologies for the implied insult, it was not intended. (I was calling the tactic childish, not you. I know you won't see it that way, but I am an Aspie, and I make those sorts of differentiations.)

I'm not privy to the conversation you had with the anonymous Linden. It strikes me as an argument to authority to suggest taxable income is in any way related to the topic of the in-world economy becasue a Linden said to post it.

I don't care for this attemt to obfuscate the argument by bringing up real world taxes. I am well aware of my responsibilities to my government concerning my income from any source. I'm sure most are to some degree, and those who are not will have themselves a little wake up call some day. None of this is relevant to the argument of the worth of the move to remove the ratings bonuses from the weekly L$ pay.

I am under the impression that the land traders activate sim cration with thier purchacing at auction. The sims only become live as those in the business of selling land deem it nessesary. It's not the Lindens deciding when to put in land anymore - they just decide where.

Anyone actually in the land biz at that level care to correct me if I'm wrong?

The sand keeps shifting in this thread. Surely it started out as an objection to the actual, imminent removal of the bonus given to people who in the now-long past accumulated ratings points, at levels which no player can currently accumulate. This objection is I believe easily refuted in a most uncomplicated manner on the basis of simple unfairness.

Then the thread got muddled by issues of the effect on the money supply, which are only accidentally connected, easily disentangled, and therefore irrelevant.

Now, to keep up the illusion that the original objection had some validity, it has seamlessly transformed into an objection to the removal of the basic stipend.

Which has not happened, is most unlikely to happen, and which I for one would never dream of supporting. An entirely, totally different animal.

This is like huntiing a wild boar that magically transforms each time you get near. First a boar. Then a bird. Then a fish..........

Oh, and of course there was the horrid gesticulating phantom tax demon conjured up to float across the pursuit path, just to distract us at the critical moment.

Overall, a masterly production. Congratulations to all involved. Is there more ? I'm beginning to enjoy it.........

and that would debilitating how? The L$ shouldn't have value outside of SL because it might be taxable. Oh no! Run for the hills!

if it isn't convertible into some sort of RL value ... thus taxable ... then LL will never see scalable quantities of higher-end content in the game, and will never achieve their dream of a sophisticated user-created world. It really is as simple as that.



It can be whatever you want it to be and still be enjoyable. You can treat SL like a game, or you can treat SL like a platform. You may want it to just be a game and not be taken seriously, but then again you're not running Linden Lab so it doesn't really matter. LL is treating it as a platform -- FOR games and many other things.

I think the Lindens are trained to ALWAYS when asked advise posting an issue to the forums. It means nothing. The forums are SL's safety pressure valve, and to advise against would lay them open to all sorts of accusations. No post, therefore, gains one iota of strength and weight by being "linden suggested". Not even strike-distracting phantom tax-demon posts.

With regard to LL involving itself in tax collection, thats laughable. I am tax resident on a tiny independent island with the most peculiar tax laws anywhere. I am citizen of a state which does not claim the right, like the US, to tax all its citizens, worldwide, no matter what they do or where they do it.

First youve got to discover where the victim is tax resident, then find out what the rules are there. This wonderful piece of software someone is offering to help with would need supersleuth capability beyond the dreams of avarice, and then a database of regularly updated tax rules covering at least three thousand jurisdictions.

One day the world will solve this problem with a unified internet trading tax regime, with all proceeds perhaps going to help the poor of the world, and collected and distributed by a supra-national body. Until that day, it is nothing to do with LL, or any other resident. It's a private matter between each of us and our local authorities, like every other sort of earnings.

Think international, Darm. When thinking SL, think international.

Even if the US tried a witholding tax on every SL sale, it would be easily avoided by a special vendor which changed the nature of the "sale", and other GOMs would spring up in other jurisdictions to make the final conversion to RL currency, even if all platform servers remained on US soil, which they might well not.

Phantom. Tax. Demon...........

Now where's that damn boar ?

Yes I broght back the loss of out 500 a week stipend that we lost in into this as it is relevent. You all keep saying we were getting free Lindens when in fact we paid for them -as adventised-.

Who in thier right mind would by a car for advertized for 8,000 and then because of demand popularity, the dealership comes around and demands another 6,000? No one one pay them another cent, not even then Lindens. So then why are we expected to take a cut in something we PAID for as advertised and not say anything? Huh?

As far as the Tax thing goes, yes I was angry, all sorts of insinuations were being made about us basic's being nothing better then leeches in the system. Got tired of it. I don't have to put up with that kind of trash talk, and I won't.

But the point behind that is still valid, if you want a digital place thats for commerce, then RL Taxes come into the picutre.

Glad to see some of you have been doing that. (If you would like to learn how to stream line some of that through digital reporting let me know, it's part of my job RL and know where the main sites are for it)

Anyway I'm leaving my offer of assistance open to that end to both Lindens and citizens.

Back to the issue

The main issue is, a select group of idividuals is trying to force others into this L$/RL$ Economy by curtailing thier Linden suply. No matter how you mince words that is what is going on plain and simple.

No one likes being forced into anything, and expecting us to just take it and be happy is an unreasable expectation. So yes I have been sounding off, and will continue to do so in hopes others will as well.

It also seems to boil down to an expectation that we should be purchasing lindens from GOM, IGM, etc... That is one big unreasonable expectation as these services have yet to demonstrate they have valid bussiness credentials and a partnership agreement with Linden Labs.

I won't touch them with a 10 foot pole until such credentials are provided (discussed in a prior post) and it's not fair to ask others to use them either without those said credentials.

A simple solution to that would be the Lindens providing a way to Purchase L$ from them directly (or subscribe to) that doesn't neccisarily involve having the right to own land.

Perhaps a mid-teir account with a stipend but no land rights, at a lesser rate then full accounts. And/or some facility to purchase more if they are desired seperate form sunscriptions.

My end point here being if you want us in this economy, you can't expect us to go to services outside of Linden Labs that have no validation of credentials.

I just know that someone telling me I can go to GOM, IGM or others to purchase lindens is not a resonable option as without proper credentials, there is no proff of liabaility if things go wrong. So that expectation that I should use them, irks me.

Whats the solution here? I have no idea. I have offered suggestions such as allowing RL$ comerce in the game as well as L$. And some of them have been reacted to badly. Fine if they are not good suggestion make some of your own.

You may want to read this thread:
/20/b5/59309/1.html#post620350

Also, you do not have to use IGE or GOM to purchase $L, you can buy them from Ebay as well.....

EXCUSE ME, Gabrielle,you have no idea what in the HECK you are talkign about 95% of the time, so get off your soap box please and think with your wllet a little bit instead of your mouth.

If you got a free basic account, then, yes you are getting everythign for free, literally.


However I DID pay for my account, and if you or anyone else says that's free, Send me a Chek for 10.00 and I'll agree with you, until then SHUT UP calling us freeloaders. I worked my butt of for 2 hours to get that $10.00, if you don't wanna send me 10.00 get over here and give me 2 hours of modeling time in front of my camera , or mowing my grass, or throwing bags inthe airplanes like I did. No? THEN SHUT UP!

As for stipends. 500X3000 =1,500,000L ThatASSUMING EVERYONEone is making 500, and not 100, or waht ever 1 Mil even si more realisti.c 52 million L a year in stipends.......asumming eeryone's active. that's pocket change compared to the amounts haodred by Anshe and others.

You want L to go up, have lL start taking L in atthe same rate its giving it out or better. LL needs to start SELLING crap for L, and hence take it out of circualtion. cutting stipends jsut simply means most peopel spendless, like rasing taxes, it NEVER WORKS. Look at Rome, euatiful proof.

You want cnotent providers to make money, THEN PEOPLE NEED TO HAVE MONEY. For alot of peopel SL is dang GAME, and I don't feel like spening my hard earned REAL cash on in game objects I can't get it back out of. I'm sure most peope feel the same way.

Linden Lab will be offering a trade service similar to GOM's here shortly. That should take care of that concern.

I still do not understand why you want to not be included in the economic model and yet are concerned with your stipend. You don't have to spend L$ to have fun with SL. No one is being forced to do anything.

There's always free fun - there will always be free fun to be had in SL. It's the nature of a recreational world. There are gobs of freebies. Have you seen the sheer size of Yadni's Junkyard? And his is only one of many free-stuff collections.

So being you're not just after access to other people's work for free (that is, you're not a freeloader) and seeing as there's plenty to do and to see and even to own in SL without having to spend more than L$50 a week (or even L$0, really) what is the complaint, exactly?