What about the poor people with no talent?

Hope you're enjoying your drink.

Chip, I justified spending in SL because I don't go to clubs in rl, and this is my social life while i preserve my rl integrity (and blow it all to hell in sl *grins*) But... then the strike happened. my college is on strike. because in rl, people don't want to give folks who work as secretaries and whatnot a living wage. which means that we the instructors, also, don't get a living wage (I make 45% of my normal wage on strike days). so yes. I have rl hardship at the moment that doesn't let me spend more than my allotted $25 per month on SL (though i stupidly paid far too much for a link on the sponsored links section. damn that visa card). I'm not trying to make people get out their worlds smallest fiddles or anything... no ok. go ahead. it might be amusing. get it over with. get those thumbs stroking...

But yes. For me, sl is enough of an expense without buying Lindens. Oh and the cover charge for clubs idea? Not working. Not a single participant (other than forseti, ty forseti) at my last two events. they weren't sexy avie events either. one was a poets event and the other a fun (i thought) builders event. no one cared. no one showed. $5 was obviously too much to pay. especially when people are broke and they can go stand in a corner and have someone throw money at them. i can't be that person. *is also broke* so there ya go. honestly, there are some people who want to be fair, to pay the lindens for this lovely service. I do still have a premium account and land tiers in addition to the wonderful prize i won as the Vive La Evolution winner. But, if i need to buy Lindens with that $25 a month, so be it. Gone will be the land tier and the premium account. That is, whenever someone buys my land. Buy my land, Chip. Do it as a favour to the sl economy. Hehe. you can put up some malls there! It's near a hub!?! Call me. ok bud? *mimes picking up her cell phone at you* oh. nvm. hehe. i don't have a cell. too poor. *blows kisses generally to all who care to sit still long enough to catch em.*

BTW... i'll be making my own clothes from now on. so don't laugh. yes my mamma Does dress me funny. lol

Yes i can actually point to one thing that was there that is valuable that now is gone: a poets open mic. Now no more. Thanks for asking; play again. That is unless I create my content for free (something 3d content creators sometimes do when they first start out but which events content creators are expected to do for free or cheap for the entirity of their careers, apparently) which is possible still, because I do like to give to the community, but people would also have to not expect cash prizes. Therein lies the rub. Last time I tried to make a cash prize, by charging a cover charge, I had one attendee. That is down substantially from the pre-January 17th numbers. I try to give back to the community too, though. I do some things for free, and undoubtedly will try to do another poet's night or sceners night eventually, if people will take time off from standing under the moneyball to attend. Unfortunately, I won't be wearing a lovely designer dress to do it though (unless my one avie lets the other avie borrow hers, which is maybe doable) ;-D. and that sceners event? Well, without the download fees to make scenes and the hours to set up, and the props I buy from builders (everything from doctors chairs to convincing bedroom furniture that a burlgar might hide behind) well, they might just get a little leaner and meaner if they happen at all. To be honest, most of the people that used to come to them seem more concentrated than ever on making money. So the answer to your question is, decidedly, yes. It is having an impact and a negative one. BTW: arts and culture I do know. I studied em; got good grades too. *winks* Let me know if you ever want a copy editor, eh? I do that too. hehe. Anything to make a $Linden.

People seem to be saying here, two opposite things: both get off welfare and be content with your welfare. (Interestingly, the rates money and the events hosting money both were tied to the actual behaviour of the player in some way, while stipend isn't remotely connected to skill or anything other than being a resident and paying one's visa bill.) For me a huge part of the issue isn't so much one of money. I have already determined that I will make my own clothes and get rid of some land and stuff. I can scale back. I can live on $500/week. The money is less than half of the issue though. Esteem is part of the reason people have jobs, self-esteem and the esteem of others. Even dancing in a club is, to many folks, better than being jobless because being jobless is being identityless.

I think that something we should consider here is the idea that without club generated jobs, or with much much lower-paid club-generated jobs, people's self-esteem goes down. When the builders whom they admire and whose stuff they buy then further belittle them in forums for relying on handouts, the esteem of others is certainly not there and clearly never was. After awhile, the sheep feels a little nervous around those clippers!

As for your assumption that prices will go down: does this model hold true in rl? When a manufacturer gets cheaper content, or when inflation stops, when there is a strong dollar, does the price of items go down? No, it doesn't. I would be very very surprised if merchants lowered their prices. I have yet to see it in even a single instance. Let me know if I am wrong though. I would love to be corrected on this. I just don't see it happening though. We will be overall streamlined, which means (as per the laws of capitalism) uberstores like mcdonalds and wallmart and everyone else be damned. If you can't pump out the very very mainstream model, you are toast. At least, if you are playing it as that kind of game: where those who buy money are the losers and those who make money are the winners. I'm hoping to be neutral but watch for later in the week. if i look rich? i lost. hehe.

Hmm i seem to have hit on a nerve here lol. Look I am not putting anyone down as a Miserly money changer exactly the opposite i admire and respect those that have talents and have earned every L they have. I have adjusted to the "new" economy but i dont feel
that my old accomplishments should be decayed just because it wasnt a skin or a build or a script. Dont pay me for rates i can live with that i understand that is the aim but leave the ones i have or pay me back the 4k i paid out in rates. I didnt make the rating rules but I lived by them now it seems we are having our hands slapped for no fault of our own.
I agree maybe the patrons should have been paying me but it wasnt only about the money you see I felt a certain pride in the rates i got and didnt indiscrimently give the ones I gave. I didnt make the system just lived within it.

If it's any consolation, I make things people seem to like, and I've only been rated once since the new system rolled out. I don't blame people, it's too expensive, I don't rate people anymore either regardless of what they do. None of us will have ratings soon.

Ok. Enough sympathy for the poor people with no talent already.

What about the rich people with no talent or morals?!

Wow, still beating that dead horse?

Ok this reply is late, but I felt the need to follow up since it sounds like you think I'm posting this from my own island sim complete with a mock-up of Hef's mansion

I had the $9.95 one-time fee to throw away, and that's about it. I haven't purchased any Lindens, I don't own land, I had a couple of vendor stalls that pulled in just enough to cover themselves if I was lucky (and I've given up on that because it didn't make SL more fun for me). I can build, and I have, but even if I couldn't manage crafting a wooden cube, I've managed to amass so much free stuff that I could be happy forever with just what I've been given. I didn't beg for it, people would just give me stuff as we were talking. Exploration yielded plenty of free stuff. There's a series (not just one or two) of Linden Trees that will give you money if you need it. I've given stuff I've made away for free, because I like to.

So your definition of full participation is what exactly? Lindens, especially superfluous amounts of Lindens, are not required for participation and I'm guessing they won't add much to the experience if you aren't already having a good time in-world.

They're just going straight to hell.

Better be quick. I'm about to delete it

The heart of this issue, which I think Ingrid Ingersoll (whose forum posts I always enjoy) was expounding somewhere around page two of this thread, is the matter of choice. When someone says "get a job n00b," what they are really saying is "it's my way or the highway." And I think that even more fundamental than being an environment of creativity, SL should be first and foremost an environment of choice. I've quoted (and replied to) different takes on this below:



Well, we all know the ratings system is hopelessly FUBAR, but why shouldn't a newbie be able to have cool stuff, like the latest weapons? One of the reasons I like SL is because I don't have to meet predefined goals to get rewards, or pay RL$ to get cool in-world items.



The issue of whether LL makes money from the basic memberships is beside the point. LL has made a decision to offer the membership tier, and people pay for it. End of obligation. Has nothing to do with how people choose to play.



Word. Said better than I could. If SL is going to be just like RL, well...why bother?



As grandiose as the future plans for SL may be, it's still a game. And I'm playing it for its differences from RL, not its similarities. Like that creepy combination of feeling both cutting-edge cool and hopelessly silly for buying a virtual sofa.

Whether or not SL is profitable for Linden Lab and its investors is hardly beside the point.

Well, obviously we want Linden Labs to make loads of money so that we can continue exploring SL into the long-term future. They seem like a great company, and my interaction with their employees has always been very pleasant. Except when Philip told me my avatar made my butt look big. That was uncalled for.

Anyway, LL is a commercial operation. Once you've paid your fee, your responsibility for LL's solvency is pretty much done. If LL is taking a bath on $10 lifetime memberships, it's up to them to raise their prices. It's not sensible to expect a duly-paid member, everytime they're about to do something in-game, to stop and think , "Is this good for Linden Labs?"

To me, the fundamental question remains: is SL going to be a place where people can do things other than build-and-sell or get a job? Because the frequent "get a job" comments would indicate that no, it isn't.

Pol, it's far far easier to do things in SL now than it was in the past. Before you could simply buy L$ for USD or buy land and pay tier, the only way to make money was through in-world efforts, and you were taxed weekly on all your land and prims. Those without a means to earn L$ were out of luck, and the disparity between those with talents to exploit and those without was even greater. When LL introduced tiers I went from not having to pay anything at all to having to pay around $25/mo just to keep what I already had. Even if a basic account didn't include any L$ per week, the ability to log in whenever you want as long as the SL service lives is an incredible deal. It's such a great deal that it amazes me that people act as if they're somehow getting ripped off because they're being asked to accept slightly less for their $0 monthly fee.

Chip, I totally dig your point. Frankly you're a pretty reasonable person and a good forum contributor, and I only responded to you initially because I disagreed with what you said about the basic membership costing LL money. What I am reacting to in this thread is an attitude in many of the comments along the lines of "I work for a living here in SL to earn what I have, and I expect you to do the same." Whereas my attitude is "It's a virtual world, go nuts! Here, have a car, have two cars, have a hovercraft, have some swank clothes, have a lightsaber, gun, hat, magic wand, 100 amazing dance moves, male & female genital attachments, a home on the water, a purse with a cat in it, a pair of those glowing hands, etc. Now, have as much fun as possible."

I work pretty hard in RL, I don't want to be required to hold down a second job in SL just to explore the possibilities of my virtual life. That don't sound like much fun at all. You know what I mean?

Can you not buy L$'s like everyone else?

Of course, but that's beside the point. Is our goal as players to accumulate $L? Is it so important to get $L that we have to buy them from GOM to get the best SL experience?

I guess that depends on if you appreciate the people that make the stuff you use to achieve that as much as you do the experience. Content is in no way made or subsidized by LL. The "SL" experience is your first land and the 3D modelling tools.

I agree so much. And even with just those basic tools, you are so much ahead of any other game online right now, in my opinion.

There are games that just hand you everything and there are people who enjoy those games. I'm glad SL isn't that kind of game.

That's a pretty narrow definition. For some people it is attending any event with the word "nakie" in it. Just to pick one example.


But I think you could have every object you desire, a big plot of land, a fat bank account, and still not be "handed everything" in regards to the SL experience. The game is a bit deeper than that; it requires that you find something that interests you or else you will be bored to tears. It requires that you give something of yourself...but that something doesn't always have to be an object you built or a wad of lindenbucks, does it?

Listen, I'm all for developers benefitting from their work, and obviously many of them work very hard indeed. I buy stuff from them all the time. Personally, when I make something in-game I like to just give it away, but that's my own choice and I certainly wouldn't impose it on others. Just like I hope other players will allow for a multitude of ways to experience the game beyond the narrow world of financial transactions.

Hehehe! I know the cutting-edge cool / hopelessly silly feeling of which you speak! love it!


As grandiose as the future plans for SL may be, it's still a game. And I'm playing it for its differences from RL, not its similarities. Like that creepy combination of feeling both cutting-edge cool and hopelessly silly for buying a virtual sofa.[/QUOTE]

Depnds on how each of us individually defines a best SL experience. If it's something like...

... then for someone like me who creates nothing here, buying from GOM is my pleasure and honor so I can pay the makers for their time and skill in creating the car, hovercraft, clothes, lightsabre, gun, hat, wand, dances, genitals, purse, and hands; and to pay the previous owner for my home on the water.

It is my pleasure and honor to return something from me, in any way I can, to those who afford me my idea of a best experience. If that means GOM-ing my way through SL, I have no problem with that.
When I ask myself, were the SL clothes I bought yesterday worth the 20 minutes RL wages I earn working for my gruesome boss, I have to answer yes, yes they are.

Pol, my guess is that when Deklax wrote "The "SL" experience is your first land and the 3D modelling tools", he meant SL provides a platform. What you do with it, and how you want to experience it, is up to you. You are right, there is no "defining" SL.

We have these two huge overlapping threads going on, which are in my mind really the same thread. Some people seem to hear claims of "you want SL to just be about money and stress!" and other people hear "why do I have to pay to have fun and get stuff?". With a few minor exceptions, I actually don't hear either of those from most people posting. Both sides are dancing around each other.

On a tangent:
I went to Perspephone's poetry event the other day and it was fun, even with just three of us. I don't want to pay to attend a poetry reading, and I don't want a prize or money for attending a reading. If someone is only there for money, then they shouldn't be there! Perspephone, art in SL isn't going anywhere! There are plenty of lovers of art and poetry in this world (maybe not all on and free at the same time tho).

This world is so big and it has so much to offer. There is free stuff and pricey stuff, arty stuff and commercial stuff, attempts at art co-ops and political experiments... I love it.

One thing, though -- SL doesn't really hand you anything on a platter. You have to seek out friends, you have to seek out events, you have to seek out cool builds and social experiments, you have to seek out ways to earn money (or free goodies), etc.

Y'know I probably would have checked out that event myself if I had known about it. I suspect I miss interesting things when I peruse the SL events panel just because they get lost in the flood of club events in which I am not even the slightest bit interested. I wonder if it is not time for some of the good citizens of SL to create more specialized events directories catering to specific tastes.