What about the poor people with no talent?

That's exactly what I mean. No more, no less from this game than what you need and like.

Amen.

I agree that everyone should have a well-balanced lfe that is completly SL filled. However, your generalizations of the worst, the best and the troubled are off the mark. Our impression is totally dependent on our needs and wants. You are certainly entitled to your impression but for some, the fashion is the thing and they may want to acquire hundreds of outfits. For others, griefing may be the thing because their maturity is such that they see it as a goof and just want to let off steam by wreaking havoc.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating griefing . I just get a tad uncomfortable when people tell others to "develop a perspective" and then proceed to tell us what that perspective should be. You even contradicted your intended point by telling us to do whateve makes us feel good. If owning a ton of property, griefing and buying hundreds of outfits makes someone feel good, why try to change their perspective -- they are happy.

So, why not ask the Lindens to issue tattered clothing, glad bags, and a grocery cart so we'll all recognize the indigents, ne'er do wells, and the unemployed. Maybe we could constitute a police force to keep them on the move, force them from stinking up the malls, etc. That would force the rabble to either "get a job" or stay on the dole in their obvious clothing, wouldn't it. Yeah, just like in RL.

Is that what we really want?

I'm fine with that. If you want to promote a welfare state come up with homeless sims with little 16sm patches that are assigned and cannot be sold. They'd have just enough room for a box.

I have this thing that comes to my Champlain property every now and then and just sits on the ground with a bottle in his hand. When company is about to come over I eject him. I've never met the guy, never spoke to him, but he fully understands how it works. My compassion allows me to let him stay on my property but my compassion is limited if he is going to be in direct view of my guests. My guests don't need to be reminded that there is a homeless problem in SL.

Everyone has the opportunity to make something of themself here. If they choose not to, they shouldn't expect a handout that the rest of us are subsidizing.

OK. Thank you for your comments.

I'd like to point out, however, that I was responding to a specific situation outlined in Sox Rampal's earlier post. Perhaps that context had something to do with what I was saying?

I'd also like to point out that it's a little difficult to take a generalization about a generalization as a specific directive to other people about how to behave. Perhaps how you chose to take it says something about your own concerns, and not necessarily mine?

Ultimately, Second Life is about what interests us and makes us feel good. But I also think you bring your own real life issues along with you. I personally don't think it's really possible to establish identities and behavior in SL that are different from RL. So it seems to me that for those who are unhappy in SL, RL is often the place to fix the problem. Of course there are exceptions, but generalities are what we mostly use in forum discussions.

btw, your argument on griefing is nonsense. Owning a ton of property and buying hundreds of outfits is one thing because that's your own business. Griefing someone else makes your business my business. And I don't want your business to be my business, if you catch my drift. And I say that with the greatest possible respect.

Not True.If you dont have the ability/time to master building/photoshop/scripting then your up the creek with no paddle and people like you dont subsidise anyone Bruno so cut the crap.You want to look at things realisticly Bruno?

On Average a pair of Jeans costs between $50 and & $100 in Second Life, My stipend is $1250 a week so ONE pair of trousers costs me almost TEN PERCENT of my weekly wage so Bruno......what incentive does a new player with no viable skills and a stipend of $90 a week have for staying in Second Life?

Getting the drift yet Bruno or do you need it in plain words?

Plain Words......Second Life has to compete with hundreds of other online games where new players CAN make something of themselves just by playing the actual game,in Second Life event support & rating were acting as a mirror for unskilled labour and thats been removed, people take a look at Second Life and many many players do not stick around because they're relegated to being hookers or playing Tringo for 4 hours a day just so they can afford a pair of jeans - thats not fun.

I've owned and run one of the most popular places in Second Life for over 6 months,I see hundreds of players pass through my doors everyday,I listen to the things they say,I hear their opinions and catch their moods, I dont rely on stupid forum polls and the opinions of a few veteran millionaires.I run the largest group in Second Life,on average that group has just sixty players out of NINE HUNDRED logged in at any one time.

You and your ilk AND Linden Labs can keep patting yourselves on the back pretending that you have a viable game world and a viable product here, you can keep pretending that the recent changes were for the better.I'll tell you who the recent changes were better for....they were better for World of Warcraft which is where everyone is bunking off to because they are sick and tired of the ''all animals are equal but some are more equal than others'' principle.

Second Life is a game about capitalism. The Linden have said so in their white papers and some of their public comments, although their splash pages indicate something different. In "liberal capitalism" (politico-economy made up of an uneasy mixture of capitalism and democracy), there is a hierarchy. And a hierarchy by definition is unequal. Some rule, most do not. Through a shifting combination of creativity, work, sheer luck, and screwing others, some succeed, most just get by, a lot of people fail. That's life in SL, and life in RL, too.

It remains to be seen whether LL can sell Second Life as an escape from RL, while at the same time structuring the foundation of the game as close to economic reality as possible. Economic reality is what most people want to escape from. In RL, they can't. Increasingly, in SL, they can't. That's partly because of increasing competition as the population of SL grows, and is reflected in the inworld market. But it's also because of LL's interesting combination of laissez faire and interventionist policies.

Personally, I've been thinking that "escape," "starting over," and "capitalism" and "entrepreneurialism" in SL are slightly contradictory. Except for the relatively few who succeed, of course.

btw, I have no stake here, beyond the fact that the issue interests me. I'm just here because I like building different things. And if I meet some interesting people, that's good, too.

How about because most people can get by with only one or 2 new pairs of trousers a week?



AFAIK, the vast majority of those other online games charge a monthly fee. If you pay a monthly fee, you get L$500 a week. This may not be a princely sum, but it certainly allows you enough money to go buy something fun every week.

If what you enjoy in Second Life is buying tons of stuff, Second Life is expensive. But there are many less expensive pursuits, even if you don't build.

But yes, building is one of the most important (and fun) parts of Second Life. People who don't enjoy building things may not enjoy Second Life as much as people who do. I imagine people who don't enjoy going on quests and fighting monsters may not enjoy World of Warcraft as much as people who do.



Well, by all of the measures we have available, Second Life as a whole still seems to be doing just fine and growing at a healthy pace. That sounds viable to me.

I have no building/designing skills for SL. Most of my money I have bought myself on IGE, and I'm fine with that.

In fact a great majority of my money is spent buying gifts for friends, paying my DJs, or given away to friends short on cash. I don't buy a whole lot for myself due to the severe lack of decent men's clothing.

Yet somehow I have a cub that is gaining popularity <shameless plug>looking for a different kind of club? Check out Ra!)</shameless plug> and Suffering-my beautiful estate in Kendall.

How is this possible? My social skills. Yes, I know this comes as a shock to my rivals in the forum political debates-but I *do* have friends. One thing I do very well is network. I put the right people together. And, while this doesn't profit me directly, (I would *never* charge a friend) it does profit me indirectly in the form of discounted or free goods and services from the friends I've helped out or just friends I've made.

Currently, I own 16,896 square meters of land. I have personally purchased 512 of them. The rest were given to me by very generous friends. Ra was given to me completely built. Suffering was built for me by two talented women-Eve Cartier and Anthea Thereian. I sit on two thrones made for me by Rafin Grimm and sleep in a coffin made by him as well. Most of the pictures hanging in my home were taken by Stacy Maracas. When I needed security at Ra, my friend Kasie Jensen reached out to her network and provided it. When I need a DJ to fill in at Ra, I know I can turn to the talented DJs I've gathered for Transylvania. When I run across a wide eyed new submissive or Dominant taking their first steps into the world of BDSM, I turn to Kyren Neva. The list just goes on and on. When I needed a skybox for my SL daughter and my SL twin sister, my neighbor, Carrina Hathor, came and saved them from my feebile efforts. -whew- When I was at my wits' end about the lack of decent men's clothing in SL, Loki Veil made me an outfit. When I wanted something with an Egyptian feel to wear at Ra, Loki and Soldeus Stygian came through for me. When I wanted a merman outfit for Ra's underwater dancefloor, Junglist Extraordinaire was there. </rhyming>

In return, anytime someone says they need a builder, I am quick to rattle off names like Mephistophelina Belvedere, or the ones I've already mentioned. If someone needs a pose or an anim, I point them at Toran Cruyff. In short, I bring the right people together in a mutually beneficial manner.

Everything I could want or need is provided through the connections I've made with some of the friendliest, most talented, most generous people in Second Life and I am *blessed* to be surrounded by such people. The point I am trying to make here is that you needn't be a builder or a scripter to live well in your Second Life. It is what you make of it.

-Kiamat Dusk
Power Broker

Seth, I feel that this claim is unduly pessimistic. In my experience as an IT manager I have seen good technical/business solutions rejected time and time again because some fool playing office politics got the ear of senior management.

SL is a refreshing escape from that kind of garbage. In SL we have an entrepreneurial system and culture that rewards technical skill and creativity. There are very few fools whose only skill is 'networking' and self-promotion with the sole goal of climbing the rungs in a hierarchy.

Hey now! I think that I've proven that we "networkers" are a contributing portion of the greater SL society.

-Kiamat Dusk
Nobody's Fool

I understand your point, Ferren, and I'm inclined to agree with you to a degree. However, I've only been here a month, and already I know of "networking and self-promoting fools whose sole goal is climbing rungs of an imaginary SL hierarchy," who have taken credit for the hard work and creativity of others.

I'm hoping there are far fewer of those in SL than RL, so I remain with an open mind.

Everyone I've spoken too in game has given credit where credit is due. Never once have I been involved in a "networking" situation where someone has tried to pass off someone else's work as their own. However, I know this happens, I'm not that naive. For example, through networking, I've found a person who makes an exemplary avatar, that I've been searching for, even posted on the forums about it. I've yet to receive any help on the forums, so am glad for the networking in game. I mentioned it to someone in passing and got a name, simple as that. I've seen the AV, it's incredibly done, far better than the feeble attempts I've made.

So, please don't tell me about "fools" who network to get ahead in game, it's a viable option for those who don't have the time or the financial means (ie. purchasing poser, photoshop, et al) to do it themselves. For those of you who use these programs, I'm behind you all the way, but don't belittle networking.

I'm sorry, but insulting the way some get by in world just irks me no end.

You have indeed, Kiamat. I enjoyed visiting Ra fairly recently. It did not remind me of an office with office politickers trying to push aside reasoned technical/business solutions in favor of personal agendas. To me Ra is about fun and spectacle. I recommend it to anyone looking for a different club.

My use of the term networking refers to the traditional excuse given to political manipulators in the workplace. I do not like the process in which office politics trumps analysis, and a label like that is just added annoyance. Some of us have seen work teams and larger groups founder due to that culture. SL is blessedly free of it at this time, probably because we do not have bureaucratic hierarchies for these self-interested people to climb. The freedom is wonderful.

Uh, did you bother to read the entire message? I said that I don't advocate griefing. It was listed for illustrative purposes. If you feel the need to twist words and effect to get your point across knock yourself out.

Ouch, I just don't know how to respond. You disagree so I'm ilk (who are my ilk mates, I want to form a group like you), my words are crap, and I have no sense of reality. Hmmm, way to get your point across. Oh and you are some sort of reliable expert because you have a large group and have listened to hundreds of people lament about how SL favors those who produce. That's too fucking funny.

What I brought out, which seems to pain the idealists here, is that there is a certain reality in any world; there are haves and have-nots. Yes, I sound elitist. But you know what, I'm not. I'm like many others who have tried to make the best of the situation they are in. If people are leaving because they want this social utopia where people can queue up to get free jeans then I say, goodbye and god bless. I'd rather stick with the entrepreneurs and those who at least make the best of their environment.

In case you and your hundreds of lamenters failed to realize it, SL rests on a dynamic economic foundation. Maybe they should go back to TSO and hang out in skill and money houses; and have three changes of clothes. Until the REAL numbers support your claim that EVERYONE is leaving, you really have nothing to offer here except continued hurling of insults towards me, which of course I welcome.

And buy the way, people like me (and you, group leader) will subsidize anyone who is getting a free ride or preferential treatment. Don't assume otherwise. Either it is bundled into prices we pay, causes LL to push more money into the system or gives one group an advantage over another. Anyway you slice it, there are haves and have-nots.

Now if that makes your blood boil and want to keep on attacking me, go ahead.

One other thing -- try a spell checker. You could buy one with less than one week's stipend!

You advocate the right of others to grief and then you say you don't advocate griefing. A subtle point. I assume you mean that you don't grief yourself?

I don't care. I was responding to your defense of griefing in any situation. Perhaps it was your way of expressing yourself that knocked your own argument out?

Hi, I'm Torley Torgeson (Jr.), time-travelling catbot and prime suspect when watermelons go missing. I wholeheartedly enjoy Second Life and extend much respect to Lindens for overseeing the gridverse. In case you like visuals like I do, here I am:



Kiamat made some -- er, many excellent points, and because of my own personal experiences, I agree wholeheartedly. I've chronicled my own story since my Day 1 in Second Life, and for those of you who've not read it but are curious, you can start in the middle of September with the journeys of Torley Sr.:

http://torley.blog-city.com/index.cfm?m=9&y=2004

and move forward through the months to see how I came to be and figured my way out through this world without being a builder, scripter, escort, etc. -- although I DO like to explore new possibilities. Still lots to learn and plenty of adventures to partake in. Which is fantastic. I have made a lot of delightful new friends who share a common thread of enthused creativity with me, and their "Second Lifetimes" span the gamut from a few weeks old to almost three years. Each one is a unique individual who I am pleased to know and to come away from being a better person.

I am seen as a social type myself, although this is bizarre because (offline) I have Asperger's Syndrome and am mindblind and communication-impaired. I don't have common sense, can't really read body language, and I sometimes take things too literally. Well, miracles do happen, and they have happened for me in SL.

You really have to just... be yourself in here. Try new things, but don't be too frustrated if you can't fill someone else's mold -- you're not supposed to, anyway, and there's a warm bed out there with your name on it. Sometimes there are no words.

---> Shatter labels and invent your own.

I am guided forward by rippleshock, nudged gently by the currents of a thousand liquid dreams, inspired the unity in diversity I see in this world . . . and I hope you will find your happiness too!

*huggerz*

I take offense at that! I work my ass off to create stuff that isn't junky. The "junky" stuff you're talking about is made by people with no talent just as you proclaim yourself to be.

Anyone that's seen the stuff I make would agree, I don't create junk. Watch it with the generalizations bud.

Kiamat, that was an entirely sensible and excellent post. Keep that up and I may just have to take back some of the mean things I said about you I'm gonna have to come check out your club one of these days. Let's just promise not to talk politics.

*carries in a freshly made cake and sets it down, stepping back carefully*

Remember what happened to the neck of the original sayer of that quote? hehe. I'd hate that to happen to someone as clever and fun as you Ravenelle. *hands her a muffler to protect her neck*

BTW posters still keep referring erroneously to queues of folks lining up for free trousers or free money or whatnot. Again, the welfare continues at exactly its prior rate. No welfare was cut. All money that was cut was directly tied to behaviour in world. So no worries. The free money goes on as before (the $50/week for which we have to do nothing and pay nothing).

However, money for hard working events hosts completely evaporated unless club owners pay out of pocket or win real $USD for being in the top 2% (competing against large groups, Malls, and real estate magnates). If events hosts are hosting anything other than tringo, bingo or another gambling or pay-for game, then some person is paying out of pocket to subsidize them as clubs Still aren't charging cover. That is, unless the host is doing it out of the kindness of his or her heart and in that case, one really should think about tipping in something more substantial and less crumbly than cake. ;-D ~ Perse

If you are a poor SLer with no talent, but you have a RL credit card or a bank account, then buy your L$ online at http://www.hankramos.com. GOM pricing, with even lower rates if you purchase items through participating vendors!