Simple economy fix - LL, are you listening?

*walks in and parades sig*

*walks out having done good deed for the day*

Disney has made a fortune selling pixie dust and fantasy.

More seriously. Intellectual rights are an intangible asset yet are sold and purchased daily all over the world. Thats just one example I know there are many many more.

Lewis, if I may, I'd like to engage in discussion of this on a more sane level.

If I understand you correctly, the gist of what you are suggesting is targeted to 'level the playing field' in this manner:

1) Disallow real world wealth or business ventures (honest or otherwise) from destabilising the $L, thus other people's enjoyment of the game,

2) put the brakes on a tragedy of the commons, which is somewhat due to the "X sells, so flood Second Life with X" phenomenon.


In spirit, I agree with those goals. By action, I'm your diametric opposite: I turn $L into USD, and do it with an intent for profit. Incidentally, I've never cashed out (yet).

As of now, 35 people (soon to be about 50) pay me $L in exchange for land on my island sims. Several hundred (at least) have paid me $L in exchange for content I've created. Demand is huge, and quite frankly, I'm struggling to expand fast enough to satisfy.

Currently, every month I convert hundreds of thousands of $L into hundreds of USD; soon to be regularly over 1000 USD. I buy sims and pay tier with it. Generally, I sell $L at whatever the reasonable market rate is.


What would become of me, under your schema?

What of the people that wish to do business with me - is Second Life better off without Desmond Shang?

Please note, as personal as this sounds, I won't take any offence whatsoever. I just wish to offer you a real example, and see where you would go with it.

Is there no reconciliation between what I do, and the better world you seek?

Lewis-

"I don't like mushrooms, I don't need mushrooms. Let's pass a law that makes mushrooms on pizzas illegal for everyone."

Just cause you don't like it... don't want it... and clearly don't need it... doesn't give you a compelling argument to have it something taken away from everyone.

1) Banning players for selling L$ on the black market doesn't work in practice. Many MMO's have tried and failed to enforce this with any degree of success.

2) What on earth would interest Linden Labs into killing their LindeX fee revenue stream?
ESPECIALLY if they're not profitable yet (probably because they anticipate growth past what they have now and are still staffing/equipping up for it)

3) If you like doing other things... do other things. The quibbling here in the land and economy forum is what.... 20-30 active posters, possibly 100 lurkers... less than 1% of the active population of SecondLife by even conservative estimates. Don't take our concerns as majority ones.

4) May I suggest decaff?


--
Jops

Would SL be better off without you? I honestly can't say because I've never dealt with you to be able to form an opinion either way.

You say you convert L$ into hundreds of $ each month, presumably to pay the tier. Now, what is there to stop me becoming a land baron, buying a region, slicing it up, charging rent to those living on it? Well, firstly the fact I don't have $1200 - let alone $1200 spare - prevents me contemplating it in any capacity. I'm sure people will respond that if I wanted to do it badly enough I would find a way. Probably true, but as I can't risk losing that amount of cash, reality kicks in and stops me. If you're truly providing a good service - and I have no evidence otherwise - by subletting land you have bought, then there's really nothing wrong with that.

But let's look at the bigger picture. You had the money to start with, you took the gamble, and it paid off. I don't have the money, can't sensibly take the gamble, and have no idea
whether it would work or not.

Let's look at the 'popular' places. They are generally whole regions, who have sufficient spare money to pay people (through camping or money drops) for people to stay there to maintain there popularity. Again, a big money investment for a return of some description presumably, because it would take a very silly - or rich - person to want to throw away $1200 and $295 a month just because they could.

Now look at me. I have a small club on 2500 sq m which caters to a specialist market, has no sex or money giveways, and does not attract many people because of all 3. Granted, reality prevents me right now spending much time there or promoting it, but today's traffic is 39, and I got the princely sum of L$2 in dwell. I have a small shop, selling budget items, the most expensive being L$75 - because I don't feel able to charge big prices for what are really quite simple items.

On those kind of figures and under these circumstances, what hope do I ever have of 'making it big'? I'm not saying that *nobody* should ever be able to turn a profit for good honest hard work and investment, but it is very difficult for many people to have a hope of ever achieving anything on a large scale.

Last night, a friend invited me over to see the new island he had purchased. 65536 sq m of no lag. It was wonderful to see what could be done - and the potential to shape it to what you want - having spent that money out. But I don't ever see how I can.

Hence the very big "rich v poor" divide. I know firmly what side I end up on.

Lewis

Hi! I'm part of that influx of noobs everyone is talking about. Couple thoughts from my experiences in other games past and current that I've played in the MMOG category.

1. It would not be possible to stop the exchange of $L for RL cash. SL is pretty out there in embracing it, but in all the games that forbid it, people do it anyway. If there was a way to stop it, companies like Sony would have stopped it by now. Bannings don't stop such trade.

2. Lewis, over 5 pages of posts (yes I read them all) you (and in fairness, others as well) have gone back and forth between 2 opposite positions...(A) that this is just a game and nothing in it matters and people shouldn't pretend it's something it's not, and (B) things in SL are important, standards should be maintained, the ingame economy has value and should be administered properly, and people should care how their actions affect the game. Is it important that the creations and property created ingame not be ruined or trampled by others? Then why is work performed in the game meaningless, equal to "welfare" (by which I'm taking your meaning that people are getting something for nothing?)

I encountered mention of SL for the first time in an article linked from the EVE forums about the nature of SL's economy. That article said that SL was different in that it didn't have a "game" to it...that the lifestyle was the goal, the creation, the pleasure of putting one's dreams into the public space.

I don't think the article was all that accurate as this discussion (and the endless tracks of storefronts selling lingerie) would attest that the game in SL is the "Land and $L Game."

And there's nothing wrong with that. I used to hang around in ActiveWorlds and there isn't any currency there. There's about the same mix of junk and wonderment too.

SL is a pretty nifty place. I don't think it's realistic though to maintain it as meaningless digital fantasy, or hyper-important symbol of evolving consciousness. Somewhere in the middle is where SL is, just like the Internet overall, a mix of genius and smut.

I do like mushrooms, so I suggest we keep them.

For (3), if that's only 30 people out of 168,000 people.... doesn't that say how unimportant the whole economy is?

For (4), I don't drink coffee... in fact I avoid all addictive drugs, legal or otherwise.

Lewis

Gretchen is one wise new resident.

You still don't understand, do you ? When I use my Basic account to make freebies, I actually pay to play, too. I pay with work that adds some value to SL.

Is that clear yet ? No ?

When Joe Content-Baron makes content worth 200$ that other players pay, he pays to play through his work making that content, and other players buy his work for 200$, paying him either directly or through LL (which gets a cut). Clearer yet ? Do you see the value flowing ?

I don't think that would work. People will just buy and sell Lindens via third party sites.

This one goes in my sigfile

All I want to add is this. The majority of people did'nt see the future of radio when it started. The majority of people did'nt see television and the domination it would have over radio in it's beginning. The majority of people did'nt see the power of the internet initially.

LEWIS! ARE YOU LISTENING?

I'm sorry you are in the majority of people not seeing that this IS NOT a game, but the beginning of something that not even the Lindens have a true understanding of. They have a very viable vision. But this can develop into so many different angles, none of us can see it all.

By the way. It's very possible you don't have $1250 because you don't possess any vision.

Sounds like sour grapes Lewis.

Not a very credible foundation from which to launch your 'better for all" perspective.

Lewis

I have read all of your posts and actually given them due thought. Perhaps more thought than they warrented. and I have to conclude you are one of those sad people who thinks Sl is JUST a game. If that is the case you are about as out of place in SL as a neanderthal in modern London.

Please allow me to school you just a bit on one main point. SL is not just a game it is the platform for the growth of the metaverse. Allowed to grow and flurish it will become the basis for the new internet the 3D web if you will.

All of those major content creators, skilled digital artisans, designers and coders are playing a vital part in the building of metaverse. The fact that they convert their L and cash out, that they make good money at it proves the concept works. Funilly enough the companies that are truly building the metaverse, companies like Electric Sheep,or my company Infinite Visions have not responded much to this thread. I speculate that is for 2 reason one, we take our money in USD and LL never gets a piece of it save for the sim cost and tier fees and 2 beacuse your ideas are just that far fetched and not worth comment

However I did want to attempt to shed a little light on the idea of the metaverse as a viable commodity. Now I sit back and eagerly wait to see how you will go about twisting my words and what sort of sophistic argument you will present

Lewis has turned Pinko on us.

The Commies got another.

Luckily, Philip is a true blue Capitalist.

I'm not sure they'd have him

So what you're now saying is that SL is only viable for those with excellent skills, as you list above, and the rest of us who for whatever reason may not be capable of turning over thousands of dollars of real profit a year are just S.O.L.

What is there left to do in SL if you are not one of these people? It is reduced from "a platform" to merely a game, so you either go to a casino and lose money, or sit on a camping chair to make some lame club look artificially popular.

Ever wondered why the majority of the 168,000 players log in once or twice, and are never seen again?

See above.

Lewis

Proof please. What is your source for this data, and what are the numbers.

Um...chat, socialize, build, explore etc etc etc...

You fail to realize that SL is free!

You can ignore the lindex, and still enjoy SL just as well in the myriad of ways you propose.

I believe the problem you are having is that you are of the position that since you cant achieve more...

...nobody else should be able to either.

I don't have specific numbers, but if you look at the frontpage:

Residents: 169,131
Online Now: 3,643

Less than 2% of the "Residents" are currently logged in at this time. At any given peak, less than 5% will be logged in.

Does that sound like the majority of people that sign up are ever coming back? It doesn't to me.

Lewis

Thank you Lewis I was wondering how fast and in what way you would twist my words and now I know

I never said Sl was just for those people. I said dont stop them from doing what they do and making money at it. I said if you recall Sl is NOT JUST a game. As to what else is there to do read the posts above.

What I see is Lewis wants hs own version of SL called SL JUST a game. Well Lewis that easy pony up the cash buy 20 sims have LL make it a private grid. And leave the rest of us alone.

This is about the worst idea I've ever heard.

First of all, the L$ trading would just go underground. Remember how we used to have these external things called GOM, IGE and AnsheChung.com? They're just take over again, genius.

Second of all, it would break EVERYTHING as its currently set up and go against everything LL is trying to accomplish, and how they've marketed their product to date.

Third, I'm not even going to both going on.

IF YOU WANT JUST A GAME, AND DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THE SL WORLD, THEN JUST GO BACK TO TSO ALREADY! SERIOUSLY! Its getting REALLY old that you want to kill SL as a platform that can be used for entertainment, business, sex, and only have your own little myopic version of SL be all anyone can do with it. Its the height of ego, arrogance, and really makes you look hypocritical.

I could go on and on, but I'll keep it simple in closing: I really hope LL doesn't bother listening to this suggestion!

Regards,

-Flip

Lets be realistic here. I suspect there as many reasons why people don't come back as there are people.

SL is a tough world. IT does take some skills to function here. IF it is too difficult for some then there are many other online worlds that might suit them better. One often overlooked fact is the number of people that CHOOSE to stay and LEARN THOSE SKILLS.

Another overlooked fact is that if all 168,000 were ever to log in at once the grid would crash in such a way it would be disasterous. We don't really want all of them here at once.

SL has been around what 3 or 4 years (I have lost track). People change in that amount of time. Their interests change. LL never takes anyone off that total resident number. Its in their interest investor wise not to. But that number in the way it is calculated is simply not accurate.

I didn't land in SL with the skill set I have now. I have grown and evolved as a creator in SL and SL has grown and evolved with me. If both hadn't been true I would have become bored and logged off permanently long ago.

If I had $30,000 spare..... the last thing I'd do is spend it on a computer game.

But you've just proven my point yet again. If you have the money you have the ability to achieve anything. If you don't, you're S.O.L.

Lewis

Actually, you are incorrect there. The number is actually the number of accounts to log in in the past 90 (or was it 60?) days. The total number of accounts created in SL's history has to be closing in on about 350,000 (it was around 300,000 last I heard, a few months ago). Also, basic free accounts are purged after 60 days of inactivity, and removed from the number. So, SL is growing faster than you had thought and has more active users as well. That's good news for us all!

When that number on the front page was 30,000, I had over 60,000 avatar name/key pairs in my database, so I've seen it with my own eyes.

Regards,

-Flip