Simple economy fix - LL, are you listening?

Lewis, just answer this question...

Do you have absolutely any idea in that little addled brain of yours how the LindeX actually works?

Do you actually believe Linden Labs pays people for L$? Why the hell would they? They already OWN all of it!

OTHER players buy money from OTHER players. Linden Labs takes a cut of the money from the transaction. They make money on every single transaction on the LindeX.

Aww, think of the value lost in SL from the missing drama

Weedy for President.

dumbest thing i've heard EVER. Perhaps you should find something more your speed. Something you can really get your head around. Like checkers.

LL will never decide that and there's nothing you can do about it.

I'm not going to bother addressing your other points, because other people have already done that.

However, I've been writing software for 24 years. I've been getting paid for it for 19 years. I can tell you from experience, scripting is not something that anyone can learn. Most people can probably learn to script very simple things, but as things get more complex, you stop scripting and start doing software development.

This is especially true for the type of coding that is required for complex behaviour in SL. You need to understand event-driven programming, and concurrency, and communications synchronization, and a lot of other complex stuff that only comes naturally after many years of doing it.

My wife is a graphic artist, and a damn good one as well. No amount of training or practice or anything else will ever allow me to do what she does, at anywhere near her level. My brain doesn't work that way. In that light, the same is true in reverse. She will never be a senior software developer, because the mind-set required to do coding is fundamentally different than the one for art.

Show me a person who can do both well, and is respected by the top people on both sides of the fence, and you're looking at one in a million.

- Jon

For all we know, Vasudha might have presented a massively sophisticated strategy for dealing with the in-game economy that will secure the growth of SL for many years to come. Thing is, she works for King Phil, not for us. We'll probably only see any such strategy as, and when, it makes commercial sense for Linden Lab to reveal it to us.



Your so-called "freeloaders" are my "customers". They pay me money for my creations, and I, in turn, pay Linden Lab money for the privilege of being able to market to those customers. Linden lab is in the business of bringing eyeballs to my products - giving free access to basic users is a very good way of doing that. I doubt you'll find a single retailer in SL who believes their sales went _down_ the day that free basic was introduced.

I've noticed that you frequently make references to the fact that your "paid" account is somehow are subsidising the freebies. How do you conclude this, since subscription fees haven't changed since the free accounts were introduced? Perhaps the freebie accounts are self-sustaining in some way (increased lindex traffic? better conversion rates?). Bandwith costs per peer are *tiny* at the volumes that LL buys.

But that doesn't solve the problem. The problem IS the fact that there is an emphasis on money and the economy. What will truly make SL grow is to make it more accessible to the average user with average skills on an average PC. Easier ways to make money. Introducing ways to make SL less of a 'strangely unique' product that scares people away, by giving us things that most online gamers are more familiar with.




Because I pay to play the game, whereas others are playing for nothing. My account plus land costs me $25 a month, and I could achieve exactly the same in game by renting land from somone else and not paying the monthly fee.

Your average new player will want to wander round, maybe shop a little, experiment with a little building or scripting, and visit a few events. Make it so that Basic accounts cannot set anything for sale or join a group (which would enable them to rent mall space), and 90% of your problems are solved.

Face it.... if people are not paying to play SL, then they are getting subsidised entertainment that the rest of us are paying for the privilege of allowing them to.

Unrestricted freebie accounts are bad news in any economic model. I would love to know how many accounts log in on an average week for more than 5 minutes, free against premium. My guess is that free outweighs premium on at least 80%:20% if not even greater. That is an unfeasable and unsustainable situation.

Lewis

SL is SL it is not any other online game. From its start it has been a user driven and created world. Dumming it down to the level of a hypothetical Average person would simply destroy the original vision of what SL is. If someone wants average go play TSO or any number of other games that by comparison take less effort and skill on the part of the player.

Phillip Linden for as long as I have been in SL has always promoted SL from the standpoint of making RL money in SL. This is what he wants and lest we forget he is the grand poobah. His call not ours.

Some in SL choose to make money for whatever reason. That is their perrogative. If others do not that is also their choice. Everyone plays in this world in their own way and to suit their own tastes. No one person (except possibly Phillip who can pull the plug when he likes) has the right to dictate what is or is not the CORRECT way.

I for one would hate to see SL become another TSO with mindless people making jam after jam to get a pittance that they spend on a set group of items that rarely changes.

The real strength of SL is the creativity and diversity of its residents.

But he's rolling in money, and isn't anywhere near the average SL player in any way whatsoever. The $50 to buy some land to me is small change to him that he probably doesn't even think about. Only people with lots of money can afford to play 'his' way, and the rest of us are SOL.



On that I can definitely agree. But that's played down to the promotion of "make loads of real money", which for the vast majority of players is never going to happen.

Lewis

You choose to do this Lewis. No one held a gun to your head. You could also have chosen to rent and not pay a monthly fee.

Then again on closer examination, someone is paying LL for tier on that rented land. The renter is paying the owner either in Cash or in L$. But LL is getting thier money regardless. In fact if they are paying in L$, LL is creaming off a percentage in LINDEX fees so is actually making MORE money off that bit of tier than just the tier.

The perception that there is a free ride in SL is just silly. Last set of figures I saw said we had about 120,000 residents of which about 20% were premium. I also have noted that 5000-6000 residents a day log in. So lets call it 6000 and to be conservative assume that no one logs in on 2 different days during a week. thats 42,000 residents a week out of 120,000. that leaves 78,000 that do not log in 20% of which are premium. So 78,000 - 15,600 premium is 62,400 basic residents who ARE NOT GETTING STIPEND for that week they do not log in. No Free ride there. And even LL isn't subsidizing these people( to the tune 3,120,000 L$ not paid in stipends).

So what about the other 33,600 basic users that do log in. Well some of them pay rent (see above). Some are Alts of premium accounts for whatever reason and in many cases their 50L a week will be sucked up in upload fees and other sinks. Some will have got their account at the time I joined when there was an option for basic to own land and the only difference between them and premium was free tier on a 512 and 500L a week. If those basic people never sold their land they still own it. Still pay tier on it. and still only get 50L a week. No free ride for any of these.

Still more basic people create wonderful content. They spend many hours doing fantastic things with the tools of SL. Maybe your time isn't worth money to you but mine is to me. They do pay for SL but they do it in sweat. That is not a free ride either.

Premium account holders do not subsidize free acount holders unless they are litterally giving away L$.

Let's add to that -- "Ban anyone who hasn't the slightest clue about economics (inside or outside SL), and likes to not only pontificate to others about how how things should be with crackpot ideas, but fights tooth and nail in the face of dozens common sense replies."

It is exactly this type of rubbish (the ideas suggested in the OP) that ruined this section of the forum for me, and is also why I generally stay out of here.

"Ban land barons"

"Ban L$ sellers"

"Ban anyone except Lewis, so he can have the SL he wants, and play alone"

Although I do not agree with most of your points, I did feel particularly led to respond to this point:



Does that sound like camping chairs to you?

Lewis

They are only silly ideas to you because you do not agree. Perhaps I find most of the other ideas silly but choose to respond in correction rather than just dismissing the points and denigrating the person.

The rubbish in this forum comes purely and simply from people discussing something that frankly has no place existing - a game/real life conversion economy promoted by the owner of a company who would rather 'spread love' than actually achieve anything.

No doubt if I was a heartless capitalist with no concern for anyone else but myself and my profit, I'd fit in with all the other people who seem to love this forum - but as I cannot lower myself to that standard, I just put up with abuse that people throw at me for daring to challenge the status quo.

How many of the people making a serious income out of SL bother to declare it on their tax returns? Not many I doubt. How long until the IRS take note of the volume of transactions - which no doubt exceeds several third world countries annually - and decide that they need their share on each cashout? You may laugh but it's perfectly possible when you consider how the real world laws intrude on so many other online freedoms that people expect to have.

As long as I do not break the ToS of the forums, I have as much right to share my opinions here as anyone else. If you don't want to read them, I suggest you hit the ignore button promptly.

Lewis

I deliberately did not mention Camping chairs, money balls, Starter pots, money trees and probably alot of other cash giveaways. a Cash giveaway is a cash giveaway. The only thing that changes is what form is in fashion at the time.

I don't do them and from what I have read neither do you.

If you don't agree with my points then shoot them down with a well reasoned argument. By not responding to them you give the impression that you do not have a well reasoned response. I put those ideas out there in hopes of sparking a reasoned rational discussion as opposed to the knee jerk reactions so prevalent in this forum. I don't expect everyone to agree. I do expect those that say they don't agree to tell me specifically what they don't agree on in a calm well argued way.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

This is a silly argument. Here's why:

1) New content adds to the value of SL on a daily basis. Being able to attract talent to create content "outsourced" through merchant gamers is not only saving then a LOT of content development costs, it also has the added benifit of real economy "invisible hand" effects. Instead of dictating a menu of goodies, the residents simply create what they want, and the best of the best gets the most purchases.

2) There is already a way to handle the costs associated with the balance between land tier income, and stipend outgo. It's called the trade rate. If Linden labs wants to balance the books, all they have to do is devalue the currency and sell some of their OWN $L on the Lindex. Us merchants don't like it, and you obviously see a problem here, but it works.

3) You say that capitalism isn't fun for you. Well, it is for me. You don't have the right to dictate what's fun and what's not. There are pleanty of MMOPG's that don't use a real currency exchange system. Maybe you should try one of those. SL has grown by 69% in new signups in just a few months. Someone likes this sytem.

4) You idea of allowing purchases of $L, but not sales of $L will create a real problem in SL. First content will bleed out into free goods in a "liberation", which you probably thnk is good. But then new content creation will stall, land will be abandoned, sims will be forfeited to fees, and Linden Labs will go bankrupt from lack of land tier income. You can argue against this scenario if you wish, but this has been the pattern of most, if not all economies in cases where intellectual property has been collectivized or totally disincentivized.

5) There's nothing wrong or evil about wanting to make a profit off of your time. If you don't like it, don't buy it, or make it yourself. But don't insist that others donate their time to you for free, or attempt to dictate what their time is worth. If you really subscribe to this theory, then I have a yard that needs mowing, and don't forget to weed it. You owe me that, don't you?

6) The overuse of camping chairs is an internal incentivation issue. The $L exchange rate is only minorly autocorrelated to this. It is basically the same as SPAM, where the burden of labor (reading the SPAM) is not borne by the advertiser in a fair manner. If Linden labs wanted to fix this issue, then they would issue LAG charges to high lag areas to force them to bear the burden that others pay in time and aggravation for high LAG applications and situations that effect the entire SIM.

With the exception of the high LAG area issue, I believe that there is nothing wrong with this system. STOP TRYING TO FIX IT!

Catnip

Lewis

I have read all of your post and actually given them due thought. Perhaps more thought they warrented. and I have to conclude you are one of thosesad people who thinks Sl is JUST a game. If that is the case you are about as out of place in SL as a neanderthal in modern London.

Please Allow me to school you just a bit on one main point. SL is not just a game it is the platform for the growth of the metaverse. Allowed to grow and flurish it will become the basis for the new internet the 3D web site if you will.

All of those major content creators sklled digital artisans designers coders are playing a vital part in the building of metaverse. The fact that they convert their L and cash out, that they make good money at it proves the concept works. Funilly enough the companies that are truly building the metaverse, companies like Electric sheep,or my company Infinite Visions have not responded much to this thread. I speculate that is for 2 reason one we take our money in USD and LL never gets a piece of it save for the sim cost and tier feesand 2 beacuse your ideas are just that far fetched and not worth comment

However I did want to attempt to shed a little light on the idea of the metaverse as a viable commodity. Now I sit back and eagerly wait to see how you will go about twisting my words and what sort of sophistic argument you will present

I agree totally. I am currently working on a major product rollout. My wife, who is more of an accomplished businessman in RL than I could ever hope to be, is having trouble understanding how I can be rolling out "imaginary" product for sale. Nevertheless, she has come to trust my nose for a good investment, and is taking a "wait and see" attitude on this one. If an accomplished RL businessman is having trouble seeing the incredible potential that the metaverse "embryo" currently holds, then I can't really expect a non-business minded person to see this.

Also, I call this an "investment" because of the lowered work needed to accomplish anything on SL. Once you have the product, then you don't have to worry about manufacturing, don't have to hire a salesforce, and don't have a multitude of other hassles associated with a RL business.

I'll save the lecture on technical multipliers to Adam Smith's production equation, but I will say that the new metaverse potential is only barely glimpsable by those who have specifically trained themselves to see opportunity, and the full potential is well beyond most genius' sight.

Catnip

No need to twist anything.

Second Life requires an internet connection to play. Therefore it is "online".

It is a huge place. Thousands and thousands of square metres of land available. "Massive" in fact.

Thousands of people play it. "Multiplayer".

People enjoy what they do in Second Life, and if they didnt' enjoy it they wouldn't log in correct? Entertainment. There is a chance, however, that you may make or lose money in whatever you decide to do.In fact, a slightly broader definition of something done for fun, and chance, is a 'Game'.

In-world, we are represented by an avatar rather than our actual physical self. Our avatars cannot be "us" but merely a "copy", an attempt at recreating ourselves in a virtual sense, or "Roleplay".

Massive. Multiplayer. Online. Roleplaying. Game.

Second Life in a nutshell.

The "Metaverse" is a "virtual online representation of reality". It is not physical. Therefore it cannot be cut up and distributed or sold, or held in your hand. So how can nothing be sold as a viable commodity? You might as well sell spacedust.

Lewis

Or song rights, or broadcasting spectrums, or orbital parking orbits, or time at a location, or bandwidth, or the rights to show a Star Wars character eating cheese with Mickey Mouse...

But they can and do anyway.

You went from crazy to downright looney with this post

Makes a change from "communist to fascist" I guess.

But seriously, show me which part of my post is factually incorrect.

Lewis

This part.



No, but seriously mostly this part.



Think about this paragraph for a minute, and then think about everything thats accomplished over the internet today.

It should come to you.