Economy and the newbie

No high-minded words here - just the facts.

Some of the best software in the world is free (GPL). And legit companies make money on service - which in this case could be the store location, merchandising, IM support, texture switches, etc. for customers who otherwise would not know how to take it out of the box or to get it home. Selling is a service, not an act of creation.

Every object in SL carries the name of the creator as its provenance. That's rare in RL - most we ever get is Made in China, or similar...

Property rights are not so clear in RL, and even less so in SL. IP rights are one thing, but let's assume that the creator's name cannot be hacked away and replaced by a scam artist. Credit is another, but reputation is not changed by service generally - except to enhance it.

Couldn't we simply be talking about money? What if a digital rights management (DRM) system was implemented that told creators the value of their inworld products sold? What if creator's automatically received royalties from the sale of goods, free or otherwise? What if creators' could police their distributors centrally instead of simple word of mouth or inworld hunts to find miscreance? What if?

For me its less a moral issue than it is a system failure to implement a moral code we believe embodies SL. Why aren't we blaming the Lindens instead of each other?

Well I'd like to imagine that the seller of the object, as they obviously don't need it if they were prepared to sell it would give it to the person who needed/wanted it... But I agree proper free to copies need to have copy enabled..

Blame Canada!

(sorry, poor impulse control)

The main reason people get upset about selling freebies is because it is considered ripping off newbies. Newbies don't realize that the items are freely available, so they pay for it and then find out later that they could have just taken a copy.

While some makers do give away no-copy items, those aren't the ones that get you neg rated for selling them. (Not that the maker wouldn't be upset, but you can't please everybody.)

Buster

thats why the networked vendor systems are spreading ^^ THEY are your middle man and at the contrary of a "flesh" one they arent taking a cut (well exepted "some"

and I am see here:
/130/d5/54376/1.html#post573896
Cali

Not sure why we are moving over to a new thread for the same topic,
but guess I will post my next comments there.

Gabrielle

How about 2 new permissions to replace the current transfer permission -

Saleable - The same as the current transfer permission.

Transfer - Can be transferred to another av, but not set for sale.

What ever your beliefs on the sale of freebies, I think the addition of this second permission type is much needed.

I think there are several issues getting rolled into one here and I do agree that the “culture” of SL commerce is not exactly transparent to a newbie, so we should just forgive Horatio (who I’m sure had no idea just how large a pile of doo-doo he was stepping in.)

The issues that I see coming up:

1) Newbies being tricked into buying things that are free. I think it a solid bet that most newbies are on a Basic Account and broke. I distinctly remember my first week when I discovered there were freebies in SL and literally SCOURED the landscape looking for free stuff, and then I started meeting other newbies and shared my list of treasure trove locations with them. So, my personal feeling is that not many of the freebies are being sold to unsuspecting newbies – I was not the brightest of new residents and I could figure out how to find free stuff.
*This does lead into my previous suggestion that the Information building in the WA be renamed “New Resident Services” and include kiosks with notecards/TP links to places to learn to make stuff, places with large collections of freebies, Pathfinders Picks, Games and Attractions, etc… Basically, a concierge service for our newest residents.

2) People following the pure capitalist structure of American life. The largest company in world, Wal-Mart, does exactly what Horatio did; bought items for cheap and resold them for more money. No matter what your opinion of Wal-Mart or this business structure, you can’t hang someone for doing what A LOT of businesses actually do. It was an easy mistake to make and a sensible choice, not knowing SL business culture all that well.

3) Respect for creation and digital rights. One thing that is not going to be readily apparent to a newbie is the SL emphasis on owning your digital content. When a factory worker in China makes a cheap product for resale by (insert name of evil retailer here) they know they have no further rights to profits generated by that product. That is not the case here in SL, and this seems to me to be where the confused and grey area lies. It is also the same argument at the heart of music and video sharing/reselling. If I go down to my local used bookstore and trade in a few books for someone else’s books, the author/publisher gets no part of that monetary exchange. However, I do not get to keep a copy of the item that I am exchanging, which is where this argument departs from the issue of reselling copyable items in SL. Creator rights and ownership rights are very fuzzy in SL and it seems like everyone here agrees on that.

4) The appropriateness of freebies in the first place. Freebies have their upside and their downside. Yes, they cut into sales and undermine the economy to a SLIGHT DEGREE. However, I think they actually become a loss leader. It is possible for a someone to live quite happily in SL on only items they picked up at Yadni’s and never spend another Linden. But I also believe those people are in the minority. It becomes quickly apparent the more time you spend in SL that freebie items are predominantly “first attempts” by new designers, or items that a creator has decided to do not meet their standards for sale. For instance, there is very little really well designed clothing for free. The upside of freebies is that they expose our newest residents to the possibilities of SL and are a huge asset in retaining people who will become paying consumers in the future. A new resident off Orientation Island has about $250L to spend as wisely or as foolishly as they choose. That amount of money doesn’t go very far, as we all know. Freebies provide those folks with a chance to enjoy SL at a limited cost if they so choose, which is a powerful incentive for those who join up with the intent of never spending another dime here beyond their initial $9.95. It is the same marketing strategy used by your local supermarket when they put a popular item on sale; they know the financial loss from the sale item will be made up by the 10 other things you buy once they got you in their door.


I think these are complex issues and are not readily apparent to a new resident trying their first hand at joining the free-for-all of the SL business world. Horatio learned some harsh lessons and paid a high price for previous transgressions of certain individuals in an area that does not really have formal rules of commerce, just residents who are trying to do what they believe to be the right thing in looking out for the digital content rights of others.

I'm really not impressed by the original poster's protestations of innocence. The comparisons to "real life" are, as a matter of common sense, irrelevant. These aren't single trinkets, they're fully copyable pieces of digital intellectual property. At no point when I was a newbie would I have ever considered it acceptable to resell copies of free items given by generous developers.

I mean... I guess I'm just at a loss for words here. I'm not sure what sort of reasoning would make that seem acceptable to anyone. You should only profit off the works you create personally, not off of the generosity of others. We're not talking about individual, unique physical objects like surplus televisions here, folks.

I guess that's one problem with Second Life being marketed as a "money making game." Since it's neither a game in actuality nor a guaranteed cash cow, people are disappointed when they discover that it's neither easy nor guaranteed that a buck can be made.

It's impossible for me to relate to you, Enabran Templar. when you say
"You should only profit off the works you create personally, not off
of the generosity of others."

Have ever sold anything at all which you did not create? Have you
ever had a yard sale in real life? Have you ever had a job where
you make a profit (your salary) off what other people in the company
are actually creating.... In that even though you do work for the
company, your physical hands are not actual used in the items
creation -- this would include phone support, sales, etc.

People and companies resell items ALL the time in the real world...
The whole supply chain of Creator -> Wholesaler -> Retailer involves
millions of people selling items they did not create! Your request
that Second Life be SO limiting to retail economics does not seem
reasonable in my mind.

It seems some of you have not read the other thread where I give a
good solution.... perhaps many of my posts are too long for most
people to read

So here it is again:


=-=-=-=-= A REAL solution =-=-=-=-=

Many of us don't see any problems with selling items we got for free.
Many of us wish to keep free items free all the time for everyone.
None us of should be allowed to FORCE our will on anyone else.

So, here's my solution....

1) There should be no hard "law" or permissions created to force any value
restrictions on any items. This will only serve to hurt the economy.
Yes, even "free" items should not be FORCED to be free by permissions,
but read on....

2) LL should put items they want for free to everyone in our Library inventory.
That way we all have them from the start, and if we have them, then why
would anyone pay for them? They should have full open/copy/transfer
permissions set.

3) There should be a mechanism for builders to add their creations to a certain
vendor which is made known to everyone, and part of the Tutorial Island
path where you can add your "free" item to it, and then all residents can
visit the vendor and take a copy of anything they are interested in.

People can visit this vendor as often as they'd like to see if there are any
new free items to be had... perhaps an automated script could be set up
to allow people to subscribe to a notecard which is sent out on a weekly
basis letting people know what new free items have been added.

Newbies learn about it on Tutorial Island and we all use it to share free
items on the mainland... so no one needs to fear ripping off the noob.

4) Only content CREATORS are allowed to add their items. This way we know
the intent of the creator, and not just anyone is putting in free items.

I think with those four points in mind, we make just about everyone happy.
If people can still get away with selling items that are in that special vendor
so be it.


I'll keep this post (relatively) short

Gabrielle

Perhaps you were not paying attention to the details of my post when you dashed off to write your own. There is no comparison to "real life" because "real life" items are not being sold. Because this is not "real life." Thus, I can sell one television 300 times in Second Life. In "real life" I can sell one television once. Thus, when I say you should only profit from things you have created yourself, I'm talking about Second Life business and Second Life intellectual property. Real life business isn't in this discussion, since we're talking about... Second Life. Bits are freely copyable. Picture tubes are not. I hope I have made my distinction a bit more clear.

Taking an object someone has worked on and decided to distribute for free, as a gift and service to his community, and then selling that object on your own, is a rip off. You're ripping off the community, who is entitled to have the object for free, as its gift from the author. You're ripping off the author, who is the only one entitled to be paid for his gift, and who has decided that he would rather the community benefit as a whole from its sharing.

References to selling things in real-world yard sales are always brought up in these discussions. It's blatant red herring. See my above paragraph. Declaring that alternative distribution schemes are called for in Second Life isn't relevant. See my above paragraph. We're not talking about new and interesting ways of distributing product. We're talking about low lives who defraud the community of its gifts. As a content developer, I would welcome some wholesale distribution methods. It would make things a bit easier on me, to be sure. But that's not the issue right here. The original poster has already described what we're talking about.

I don't think I've seen this perspective, so I'll stir the pot a little bit.

Doesn't the buyer bear any responsibility in this situation? If the objects are widely available for free, it wouldn't take very much comparison shopping to discover that fact.

I find it hard to believe that that people are selling freebies for much more than free, anyway.
If we simply publicize freebies better to newbies and give them a little heads up about comparison shopping, there really won't be that big of a problem.

Also, just to play devil's advocate, there's a peculiar sort of a sense of entitlement in believing that you should be able to give a gift to the entire community just by setting a permission. Setting the flag doesn't deliver the product to everybody's inventory. This ability doesn't exist. If one wants to truly give such a gift, one could try to publicize it and make it more easily available to the unsuspecting newb.

Marketing companies spend tons of money to distribute free things in RL. It is true that it is easier to copy in SL, but marketing is an even bigger problem in some ways. If someone is able to sell something to a newb before you were able to give it to them, they were either lucky, or they tried harder. Maybe they have a good location. Maybe they run around hawking their misbegotten wares. But they did perhaps perform a service that the original creator did not.

As for me, I have not ever, nor will I ever, resell someone else's freebie. I'm just sayin'.

A couple of things I want to tackle having started this thread , but there is so much its too much to quote everyone.

Thanks:
Firstly thanks to those people who've been kind enough to IM me or leave positive messages. Its restored some of my faith in SL. I'll have to stop hidding in Tringo halls and start interacting again

TOS:
Its clear that what I've done is not a breach of the TOS. Unfortunately my landlord, who I won't name but has been extremely helpful and nice to date, is now asking that I remove the items. Some people have suggested that 300 Lindens is high rent, but for all the help she gave me its worth every penny, and I'm not going to slag her off because its obvious she's taking heat from the socialists that dominate SL. Because of my time zone I'm normally on betwen 3am and 8am PST so its not always easy to communicate directly.

Morality:
some of the comments here are a joke. Weve got people saying its Immoral to resell items in a world that apparently encourages free enterprise and yet you can view hard core porn and buy drug plants within close walk of the starters area. I'm encouraged by others who have said go for it, there are some out their that aren't trying to ram their own perverted views of SL morality down my throat. Others have suggested a no-resale option for items in addition to a no-transfer option. I'd support this, so this whole mysterious intent question can be clearly answered. Again, I'll reiterate to all those who haven't bothered reading my previous posts: NEARLY EVERY ITEM I"M SELLING WAS PURCHASED AT AN AUCTION/ YARD SALE ADVERTISED IN THE EVENTS WITHIN SL!!!!!!
No one has actually yet pointed out which items are suppose to be free. Even if they are free, what right do others have to tell me that I cant sell them if they are marked in a way that allows resale? I'm not telling you to stop selling porn or sexual appendages am I? I'm not forcing anyone to buy the items. If they can get them for free elsewhere they can and undoubtedly will.

You cant have your cake and eat it to with half an economy. Resale is common in RL and there's no reason that it shouldn't be here. There is no reason why Auctions couldn't become more common and SL could sustain larger manufacturers who offer their product for re-sale by distributors.

I'll point out one comment that needs to be tackled:


No Jillian, its not thievery, its called a free market. If you don't want free items resold mark them no transfer until another option of no-sale becomes available. If you looking for Communism may I suggest North Korea.

To Gabrielle Assia and her comments, thank you, we must meet up one day.!

I know of no system that allows you to take the effort of others and profit on it without recompense to the original creator... except communist systems. I find your assertion laughable.

Oh very mature Jillian, give me negative feedback whilst I cant be inworld. Try eBay, your local shopping centre.... to name but a few. I've put things out on the street during annual cleanup campaigns I've no longer wanted and people swarm across them, and then later I've seen my items up for sale at garage sales and in the newspapers...if I give away things for free and I don't restrict their resale by contract or other means, then its all fair game.

Communism controls production and sales, capitalism doesn't.

Oh, please. I'll neg rate whomever is acting like a twit, in my opinion, whenever I see it.
Real-world examples don't apply - in the real world you can only sell the one item. Digially, you can copy and copy and copy. Also, since I've successfully DMCAed one eBayer who was selling digital copies of some of my artwork, I think that supports my view.

Still: becasue one can do soemthing does not mean one should. So far I've seen nothing from you that actually defends the resale of items intended for free distribution. All you've said is there's no mechanism installed that actually stops you. In other words, you won't use a sense of ethics to control your behavior, instead opting for external controls. That's unfortunate.

As long as you keep selling freebies, you get to keep the neg rating. I find that sort of behavior deplorable, and always will.

2 things: one, the market will stop me selling alleged freebie items and others if no body buys the items because they can be obtained elsewhere for free: basic tennant of a free market, there is no point selling items that there isn't a market for.

secondly: there is a mechanism to stop so called free and other items being re-sold: its called: NO TRANSFER.

Ethics? What's unethical about selling an item in Second Life, whether it be newly created or second hand to raise a few Lindens to be RINVESTED elsewhere within the SL economy. I'm growing tired of this whole ethics/ morality debate, as I said to one person in an IM go pick on someone else, I'm not pedalling porn or drugs here, I don't see you picketing the people who are, or are you pedalling porn yourself. perhaps your an escort?? I mean, some people get off on cat heads and chocolate so I'm told. Now I'm not knocking those that are doing this sort of thing, but don't go slamming me with your morals and ethics in a world full of porn, vice and gambling. Go back to reading Marx in your own little corner of SL nirvana and get off my case.

hahahaha
Just read your Live Journal blog Jillian, you're a weapons developer, I cant stop laughing.....oh yeh, keep firing off those ethics and morals Jillian. Lots of credibilty here

Is it already time to stop arguing the point and start arguing the person? No matter, it means I can just ignore you now, you've nothig else to say.

Argue the matter as opposed to the person? you've accused me of being unethical. if thats not playing the person I don't know what is. Its also valid to note that in calling me unethical for selling alleged free items that your occupation is a weapons developer. Kitty want a bazuka

Selling toy guns in a virtual world isn't immoral or unethical, and the fact that you'd try to attack Jillian with a dopey line of b.s. like that (let alone your leering insinuations about her avatar) devalues everything else you post. In other words, even if I had found your views credible before, now I view everything you say in the context provided by your irrational, inappropriate, bigoted personal attacks. Way to start off on the wrong foot.

Sorry, I forgot, re-selling legally purchased items from a yard sale is unethical and the promotion of guns and guns culture is totally acceptable, sorry, it must be me, my ethics must be totally screwed up, I throw myself upon your mercy and promise to embrace the porn and guns promoted by yourself and your friends and give up my evil sales of so-called free items. Bad me.

Seriously though, how is the promotion of items that kill people some how better than selling legally obtained, TOS complaint items which were marked as allowable for transfer, to others who may wish to purchase them?

Dude, if you're going to continue to equate pretend guns in a computer simulation and real guns that kill people in order to distract from criticism of your own actions, I'm not wasting my time trying to have a discussion with you. Not unless you dress your av in clownshoes and stream your routine as live audio done in a Richard Nixon voice.