Economy and the newbie2: a suggestion

I have been following the argument on the Economy and the Newbie thread, and it has crystallised something that I have been thinking about for some time. I have tackled people about selling free to copies, mine and the Lindens, but at the same time I have been aware how hard it is for a new person coming into SL to make money legally and to be able to sell things while they can't make things.

I have held lots of SL basics classes at which learning how to make money seems to be very dear to the heart of most people.

I have a suggestion: why don't the established makers of SL, get together to make a newbie pack? This could include things which are already made and CAN be sold on for whatever the newbie thinks they can get away with (bearing in mind they would be in competition with others). My thought is that there could be items premade and ready to go, with an explanation of where to sell, and how perms work, and also maybe a time limit...6 months? in which to sell those items. Maybe we could randomise packs from a wide number of contributors?

There could be a second folder of things which are untextured items, which can be textured and sold on, from 6 months onward.

This would educate the new people about what is and isn't acceptable, provide them with some income maybe, and help them to take the next step.

What do you think?
Cali

I'm having a stupid moment. If it's a freely given newbie pack that any newbie can get of open perm items....who would buy the items?
I'm failing to see who they would market to.

I think the information on where to sell, how perms work, etc would be handy though.

Sun

Well...I suppose I am thinking that if we randomise the packs, so that there are a number of different ones, then the same people who buy the free to copies that newbies sell and get neg rated for, will be the ones doing the buying .

The idea is that they will have full perms for the newb doing the selling, but can be no transfer for the buyers, so people would have to buy from the newb sellers...and they would have different items to sell.

It's only an idea though...feel free to mess with it .
Cali

Actually, I'd suggest a kit instead. Full permission textures, scripts, some interesting prim shapes, and a few notecards with suggested ideas and pointers to external resources. Then the newbie can make quick-n-easy stuff his or her self and learn something in the process. I think it'd be better overall.

Now, that still leaves in the cold anyone who isn't in SL to make things. I'm a bit stumped as to how to set up SL jobs that aren't a bloody bore (they're here to play, not work). There are times I wonder if eliminating event support wasn't a bit much. Not certain, but I have my doubts.

I think this is the problem first and foremost, and I've been bringing it up countless times of late with friends of mine. I feel that this mentality of "I just want to make megabucks without working" should not be emphasized. Quite the reverse!

A major problem that is taking Second Life by storm is the sheer lack of creativity as a result of this entitlement mentality. Second Life can certainly be used as an implement of a get-rich-quick scheme, but these ventures generally do more harm than good without real creative spirit to back it up.

Nor does one need to "have a job" in Second Life to thoroughly enjoy it, and this is another fact that is quietly downplayed under the weight of dollar politics.

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I feel that, to maintain a self-sustaining economy that is both newbie friendly and lasts into the forseeable future, the creative spirit of Second Life itself could use a booster shot. A more open method is in order, similar to what Jillian suggests, but if I could play LL for a moment, I would suggest the following:



1) Change the Market Pitch

"Come make real world dollars in a video game." No, not really. Those real dollars can't exist without creative energy to fuel them, and presently the market is in a rampant state of cannibalization as a result.

A large part of this is where those newbies come from, and because LL is trying the traditional "game" routes in how they approach the media, this is the result.

Is that a good thing? That's up to you to assess.



2) Offer greater incentives for Content Mentoring Programs

I feel that education is the key here, not giving them something to push on consumers from the getgo. Helping people learn the tools is a step in the right direction.



3) Invite Residents to more creative grants/build contests

Now this one is definitely needed. I've heard a resounding "where did all the *add creative event here* go" for some time now. A large portion of that I chalk up to point one, above.

It baffles me when I look at the Events browser. Better categorization and proliferation of these events would be a step in the right direction.


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Anyway, all of this is interrelated. While business should certainly exist in Second Life, I feel the extreme emphasis on money will be its downfall if something isn't done. These things work in moderation, but not at the expense of everything else.

</tiredRant>

This bears repeating, because it is precisely the point. One should not exist at the expense of the other in the world, or both fall apart.

Such is rapidly becoming the case here.

This is what I am thinking also.

Hear! Hear! I got into SL to let my imagination run wild. SL is the best tinker toy ever! I don't think anyone would stand a good chance of making money from cars build out of lego blocks or clothes made out of pixels in the real world...

I don't know that the entitlement mentality will ever completely go away, but as to the lack of creativity, content-creators should welcome it: it means more people who can't or won't create their own stuff, and so will have to buy yours.

The thing about the entitlement mentality is that it's not created by anything in Second Life. In fact, I hardly ever see examples of people who come into SL all ready to create and then decide they deserve to be given things instead. Far more often, what happens is that people come into Second Life with the entitlement mentality firmly in hand (i.e., "Well, here's a new game, what can I get out of this?", and then, when they see how cool it is and how much you can do here, they turn around completely and become small-scale content creators in their own right.

=-=-=-= Positive Growth =-=-=-=-=

I seem to agree with a lot of Jeffrey's ideas from what I can tell from many
of his posts.

It would be GREAT to see more mentoring programs on how
to build/design things.... tips and tricks from the masters. I've been to the
Ivory Tower and Robin's new Texture Tutorial in-world and loved them!
Hopefully I will be able to create some pretty good stuff myself.. soon.

The idea of LL funded "build contests" would be great also. Give skilled
builders something to strive for.. perhaps money and recognition, perhaps
use of some prime land location for a limited time... where LL ultimately
"owns" the items contributed to the probject, and can pass them out freely
(or resell) to help make this a better world.

I would enjoy being a part of that too... however, I (like many others)
are coming to SL for the "gold rush".... like the U.S. history in the late
1800's... there's fortunes to be made.. or dreams crushed. It might not
be a get rich quick scheme with 100% success rate, but some here SL
ARE reaping great rewards, and personally I see virtual world economics
becoming just as viable as real world economics.

The great thing about Second Life is that it's just like real life in many
ways... but perhaps even better in some ways.... if you dont WANT to
work, then you dont have to! But some of us don't mind doing some
work in-world if it means seeing real world profits.



=-=-=-=-= Back to the Newbie selling freebies issue =-=-=-=-=

So, this brings me back to the problem we seem to have with
people selling items that the creator meant to be free.

I could rattle off a dozen examples where it would be impossible
or unreasonable to be able to tell an item is "meant" (by the creator)
to be free with the current system we have set up.

I also know there are some people here in SL that intend on selling and
reselling items for a profit, and I'm not sure that even rating them neg
would matter much.... after all, what does a neg rating really do?
I'm a newbie and so honesty dont know. If neg rating have no real
bearing on anything substantial for that person then why should they
care? With the bit I've read from the forums Cubey Terra seems to
be well liked by most of the community, and people buy his stuff all
the time, yet he DOES have a few neg ratings... on the other hand
Prokofy Neva seems to be very controversial and not liked by many
people.. and has 10 times the negative ratings. But, I don't see how
this really matters to ME very much. If either person was selling an
item that I wanted, I'd buy it... I wouldn't care what other people
thought of them... especially when I know how bogus the rating system
is anyway... and I'm only a month old.

My point with the above.. is that unless there is another negative aspect
to neg ratings that I am unaware of, then someone who sells a "free"
item for profit and gets a neg rating for it ... probably shouldn't care, and
you STILL aren't stopping the person from selling it.

I think we should all give up on trying to CONTROL other people's
actions in such a way..... Just because you might be in-world with
"fun" in mind, doesn't mean we're all here to "have fun". Although I'm
sure we'd all prefer doing a job that is fun also. Just because some
people might think it's wrong to make a profit off an item they got
for free doesn't mean everyone feels it's "wrong"... and who are you
(those that do).. to impose your morality on anyone else?

A great example of this is the cow. In the Hindu religion the cow
is sacred. Killing a cow is banned in India. That is their "morality"
where much of the rest of the world kills and eat hundreds of thousands
of cows every day without any morality problems. Any one side of
a morality issue is going to disagree with the other... but are we going
to live in peace.. letting each other follow our own morality... or are
we going to go to war over it?



=-=-=-=-= A REAL solution =-=-=-=-=

Many of us don't see any problems with selling items we got for free.
Many of us wish to keep free items free all the time for everyone.
None us of should be allowed to FORCE our will on anyone else.

So, here's my solution....

1) There should be no hard "law" or permissions created to force any value
restrictions on any items. This will only serve to hurt the economy.
Yes, even "free" items should not be FORCED to be free by permissions,
but read on....

2) LL should put items they want for free to everyone in our Library inventory.
That way we all have them from the start, and if we have them, then why
would anyone pay for them? They should have full open/copy/transfer
permissions set.

3) There should be a mechanism for builders to add their creations to a certain
vendor which is made known to everyone, and part of the Tutorial Island
path where you can add your "free" item to it, and then all residents can
visit the vendor and take a copy of anything they are interested in.

People can visit this vendor as often as they'd like to see if there are any
new free items to be had... perhaps an automated script could be set up
to allow people to subscribe to a notecard which is sent out on a weekly
basis letting people know what new free items have been added.

Newbies learn about it on Tutorial Island and we all use it to share free
items on the mainland... so no one needs to fear ripping off the noob.

4) Only content CREATORS are allowed to add their items. This way we know
the intent of the creator, and not just anyone is putting in free items.

I think with those four points in mind, we make just about everyone happy.
If people can still get away with selling items that are in that special vendor
so be it.

Gabrielle

I think SL as a whole is a "kit" creative people can use to make things.

Gabrielle; I congratulate you for bringing the most original suggestions to this lenghty thread.

If I may add my own suggestion to yours; Why rely on the overworked and understaffed Lindens to act on your suggestions? Can't we create an association of SL good samaritans that would pool free stuff of their own creation together in a vendor network and set the price at L$0?

No need to put these vendors in shopping malls, but on the land of those in the association...

Advertise with a standard sign easily recognisable by everyone.

This could be done in record time if enough people jump in.

I'm ready to jump in. IM me inworld. I have a JEVN vendor network.

If enough people are interested, I'll organise a meeting.

Yes, Pratyeka.... I was not suggesting the Lindens make the vendor part
of my idea, but just that if Lindens wanted to pass out "free trees" for
example, then they should add those directly to our initial Library, and
not have to deal with whatever we create (or don't create) in the SL universe.

Now, as far as OUR part...
I'm sure we residents can create such a vendor that content creators
can add too.

1) It needs to be designed so you can only add items that you create.

2) It will be assumed that any items you add will be offered for free.

3) It would be nice to set up a way for people to be notifed when new
items are added.. and what those items are... rather than having to
check back with the vendor every week to see if there's anything new.

4) It would be even NICER to have a way to list items by reverse "add" date,
so you can see newest items at top.

5) There should be a huge disclaimer before adding an item that let's people
know there item will be given away for free.

6) The vendors holding these free collections should be available at several
convient places.... and this is where it might be nice to have the Lindens
help.... if they can put a tutorial about such vendors in Orientation island,
and perhaps even a live vendor so newbies can get all the goodies before
even getting to the main land.


Even though I seem to be promoting this idea here I strongly feel freebie
items like this will end up being more harmful to the SL economy than it's
worth.. and I plan on starting a whole new thread to address "the real reason
SL economy is broken".

My solution here is only to provide a mechanism where we can allow people
who want to sell items to sell items, at the same time as we make sure
newbies aren't getting ripped off buying items that were "meant" to be free.

Gabrielle

I have an idea that should work! How about when someone joins SL we start them out with a basic inventory of newbie items and scripts they can play around with. We will give them textures, and extra clothes to play with so they can learn. Then we will give them L$500 to use to start creating new things and uploading thier own textures. Once they do this, they can sell their own items even if they just recreate an already made item by themselves! And then they can attend classes on how to build, texture, script, etc..

Oh wait! Thats exactly what you get when you join SL! How funny. I guess there really isn't a problem after all, except for greedy little noobs just looking for quick cash. I guess I can say problem solved then.

I completely and diametrically disagree here, Walker. While the entitlement factor is very much a tenate of these things, content creators should not welcome a lack of creativity, because it breeds a closed-circuit, derivatives of derivatives of derivatives culture that ends up competing with their businesses in the long run.

Compounding this problem is the fact this drives away those content creators with an interest in breaking the loop. Why bother entering a market with tunnel vision when you can go elsewhere?

I see examples of the "hi, I'm here for quick money" fairly often as I'm a free script person, and I do feel Second Life shares the blame with the media fatcats for that. By marketing Second Life as a "jobless job," you effectively beg these people to come in in droves. This culture is by its very nature fickle.

I would prefer a userbase of 10,000 loyal users than 1,000,000 users that stay for a week. Only one of those is sustainable.

Fortunately, yes some of this userbase does "wake up," and are among the most loyal content community in Second Life. However, I feel such a paradigm shift is the exception and not the rule, and I need only point to the popularity of gambling in SL to drive that point home.

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I agree with most of what's stated here. However, what I'm trying to point out is the fact that "fun" and "work" cannot and should not be mutually exclusive here. With the extreme bent on dollars, one is rapidly killing off the other.

Both will not survive in Second Life if greed overtakes enjoyment, or counterpoint, hedonism overtakes hard work.

I'd also like to point out that your "points" to fix the situation have been discussed before. In my opinion, these are more long-term in mind. For the short term, it would be wise first to work toward the solution at a grassroots level, then move up from there.

Beautifully put, Games. I have been trying to be sympathetic to those wanting to put out freebies and then try to control their subsequent use, but at rockbottom I think this may be doing us all more harm than good, and moreover has a tinge of self-aggrandisement.

If a creator really wants to do this, she should offer the product to the Lindens for the Library part of the inventory. Compete to get into that. If you don't make it, your item should take its chance in the reseller market, without complaint. To avoid overfilling the inventory library, it could have some extra boxes of stuff.

If you don't like others making money from your linden-rejected items, kill their scope for profit by pricing them reasonably in accordance with the market, and make some money yourself. Donate that to charity if you wish, an educational project or something.

This is one area in which I think Prok was right. The real problem here is the donator-creators high falutin' idea of the elevated purity and sanctity of their charity. We need the development of healthy commerce more, including a crude newbie-creator to newbie market, and a new wholesale-retail chain of activity.

Obviously - I wouldn't be talking like this unless I believed this will all grow to be more than a game.

I can agree with this sentiment, despite wanting to give Prok a "Kick Me" sign.

However, I don't think a "wholesaler -> retailer" structure would really work here, simply because Second Life eliminates most of the need for a supply chain. A better idea is market segmentation (multiple grids), but I think that's still a bit off.

I just found this current thread
/120/d8/54399/1.html

Totally relevant to what we are discussing.
Two previous freebie-creators seem to be recounting the endless trouble this gave them from disgruntled victims of resellers demanding compensation from THEM, and how the solution was to make items no-transfer (only the creator can originate them), or to stop doing it and sell them at market price.

Worth a read for those interested in the issue.

I think the value the retailer can add in order to be worth his cut is by reducing the buyer's "time to search" or "time to collect" or "time to evaluate". And/or by cutting down the wholesalers (creators?) need to create and maintain an advertising and selling operation and premises, and the need to provide customer service, deal with complaints , malfunctions and misunderstandings, update notification and automation.

Much the same as RL really.

Just to be precise, that's more of the role of a sales agent than a wholesaler. And I agree. I just think we're using different terms for the same thing.

I'm not too stuck on what we call things Jeff. Just think we will need a more compex chain between creator and end-user, and that it can earn its keep, particularly as we move to 500,000 population, then 1,000,000.

Long term, yes. Short term, not just yet. I have nothing more to add here.

No kidding!!..I came back to see what was new here and think that after a newbie makes something they have worked on for 5 moths or more they will be singing a different tune!!

That's great, but try viewing a class at 3am PST? Believe it or not we aren't all on US PST. When I log in all I get a Tringo and Slingo games and the occasional yard sale. Not your fault I know but as a "greedy newbie" as someone in this thread described myself and others newer to SL how are we suppose to learn when there isn't the options there?



Couldn't agree more. There seems to be a common thread amogst some that all commerce is evil unless your doing all but the most basic of selling. Commerce is driving SL whether people like it or not. Sure, lots of casinos and Tringo halls, but there is still plenty to look at and do if that's not your thing. Hopefully things will develop overtime and improve, and the creation of wholesale-retain chains would be welcomed, although I'd suggest the subject of many flames over time