Basic Members....would you be willing to pay a SMALL yearly fee?

Sicne we are considering non-US economies and the potential to pay LL from within them, I thought I'd mention my own situation.

As it happens, for entirely different reasons I made sure to have a credit card before I came to Japan. It's an emergency backup for me - I've used it les than once a month on average. But if i didn't have it...

the divided nature of Japanese banking and the relationships they form with local branches of companies effectively have meant I had had to deal with a new bank every year I've been here. I have yet to have dealings with ANY Japanese bank that would give me a credit card. Being an expatriate worker, I am apparently considered too much of a security risk to be isued with any kind of credit card. Yes, I have heard rumours of foreigners who have received credit cards. they tend to be married to Japanese people, have permwenent residency visas, or some other strong tie. This doesn't apply to me or many other expats.

And you mention that there are various kinds of offshore accounts I could transfer money to. the official policy of my current bank is a base 50 usd (equiv.) fee plus some percentage of the transaction. that's pretty ridiculous, but apparently not too far from the norm.

Incidentally, my bank is the only one with a branch in town. I'm rather fond of having a travel time under one hour to get money for groceries and the like, so I won't be changing banks in ordr to pay a smaller international fee. besides, by most reports this isn't particularly far from the norm either.

I listed, through several threads, about 10 different ways, including links to companies, organizations, international visa and mastercard, and links to paypal's of regions that are not country included but still accept.

People who have been in those threads can testify.

I'm sick of listing them over and over and over and over to get the same argument. "I shouldn't have to" and "I don't want to".

If someone wanted to get verified, a quick google search can give out hundreds of companies with overseas (from wherever you are) international prepaid debit cards. Some don't even charge extra, while others may charge only shipping and others yet charge shipping (around a buck) and a 25 cent-1usd fee.

Tell me, why should *I* have to do the work for others that are too lazy to do it for themselves? I've done some and been blasted for it from those same unverifieds... and I'm not going to do anything to help them as a whole anymore. If they come and ask, I've helped, but posting this info on the forums only gives more people ammo.

Essentially, for the offshore, you can 'purchase' online then they send it. Some do require a wire, but not most or all. Because it's a prepaid card, it's a purchase, not opening a new account, though that is also an option.

Also, my grandfather's best friend is an expat living in Tokyo and had no issues with any banks there. He's lived there for around 15 years now and has a daily life just like an American, so I assume there's more to the story than you are telling. Thousands of Americans have lived there and done business just as normally as they would here. I suggest checking in with the resources offered in http://tokyo.usembassy.gov/t-main.html the embassy website for information, alternatives and rights.

Ironically, most places in Japan only take yen or credit card and don't even option for accepting checks. Some studies even show that credit/debit card is the payment option used most by FAR in comparison to other methods.

P.S. I'm still waiting on someone to prove to me that SL is a right and not a privilage and how that compares to owning land, driver's licenses, the hotel thing, etc.

I wonder if Linden Labs hasn't created a monster that they can no longer fully control. Second Life is a forerunner for full virtual reality online.

I think that eventually LL needs to remove itself from owner and become developer and manager with the ownership being transferred in the form of share to the members for a fee per share. There are already cases before courts to determine the rights and ownership in cyberspace.

Having said that, the amount of money that is going to be required to continue to build SL and keep it running smoothly with the kind of support that is required is unfortunately going to be horrendous.

I don't think that anything is going to survive on being offered free. That includes SL. It certainly won't be able to grow and be sustainable.

I' like to see a different model for the basic membership. Something like the first 3 months free and then a small annual fee with some bonus L$ when payment is made. Unpaid fees of any kind should result in a reduce access level of some sort after a short grace period. Unused accounts would be deleted after 3 years and all assets seized after reasonable notice and warnings.

Of course nothing is ever that simple.

Did you misread my post? If i were to purchase anything offshore, I'd be paying 50 usd as a banking fee, and that's not counting the additional percentage fee based off transaction size.



Tokyo has more in common with New York or London than it does with rural Japan. Ditto any world class city with respect to the rural regions around it. Travelling to Tokyo for my banking needs is not a logistical option.



My bank doesn't issue credit cards to foreigners as an unstated but very real policy. Seeing as how they are the only bank in town, switching isn't all that viable logistically, as I like to keep my travel time for getting grocery money to under 2 hours.

Well, firstly, it's most often than not, NOT listed as an offshore buy. Secondly, a few prepaid debit cards are available by mail in Japan, which would nullify that 'fee', which as a google search shows, no common bank I could find listed in Japan charges a per fee anywhere close to what you mentioned (one does charge approximately 118 yen or 1USD processing fee ,certainly not 50 dollars though).

For instance, it seems the Bank of Japan is one of the largest, if not THE largest. It works with the Embassy for Fair Trade assurances, has no fees for international charges, and offers certain credit to each consumer (I.E. Just like American banks, if your credit is decent you get unsecured, if it's spotty or nil, you can apply for secured). In fact, it mentions on it's site, in some recent public forums they have attended and participated in, they are loosening regulations and rules, to allow MORE people to get credit issuances due to the pressure of tourism dollars being spent in credit card monies, and making it more available to Japanese. Also to mention, a debit card comes with thier accounts. With 32 branches and 14 main offices, one would think banking with them is local no matter where you might be.

Either way, this means you are a foreigner who has a home base to apply for credit. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a foreigner, which means that those unwritten limitations don't apply anyways. Secondly, since you won't name your bank, there's not much I can do to research the information you're giving me. So I have to take your words for it. Not to mention even having a location, or region to narrow down the search on banking. Also, it's your CHOICE to bank where you do. You are not FORCED to do so and therefore if it were a CC verification, that would be your CHOICE. Of course, you already admit to being a bank hopper, which as I said, there's more to the story, I'm sure.

We already pay to setup basic accounts as an alt. I have a premium account along with 3 alts, all of which cost me $9.95 to setup in the first place. PErhaps a one-off payment for all basic accounts whether they are an alt or not would be reasonable, but not a regular subscription.

Hmm, a one-off payment for a service that has continual running costs? Isn't that like asking for free ADSL forever because you paid the one-time service installation fee?

Put it this way - a onetime payment is more than nothing, which is what LL are getting now. The question was what would we be willing to pay, not what do we think is fair - the two are not the same

I'd also be interested to know how long the average person stays on SL for. There are people who've been on here for years - but for every one of them, there must be dozens who just get bored after a few months and fade away. A one off payment would therefore be more profitable.

Having worked in the credit card industry for many years, I can honestly say that I have never enountered a UK bank that WILL give a credit card to someone who does not have a UK address, bank account and credit history. I should imagine that most banks operate in a largely simillar way the world over.

If somebody pays $9.95 for their basic account, and then abandons it after a few months, they wouldn't pay $9.95 the following year because they wouldn't be here. So by your example, it would actually be more profitable to charge anually because all those who stay on would pay another $9.95 at the end of the year, and your early bail-outs are happy because they only had to pay once.

I wonder why noone likes my idea.

Everyone pays ten dollars a year and then tier and there are only two types of accounts.

Basic (you pay ten bucks a year to exsist)
Premium (you pay ten bucks to exsist and then your 6-10 a month + tier. In return you can own various sizes of land.)

This would be effective on all accounts with no exception or all current accounts would be grandfathered. Nothing more, nothing less. Free, even distribution of the charge to everyone.

Sometimes they won't even if you do....

Don't know about UK banks but some US banks and institutions will issue credit cards to people not resident or citizens of the US.

I guess I missed it. What has this go to to do about 2L and sustainable income for LL?

Because people are making the argument they can't afford/don't have access to pay 10 dollars a year as a reason why it's a bad idea.

As for the UK, HSBC gives credit, secured and unsecured to residents and non residents.

http://www.hsbc.co.uk/

It's in the fine print, while for unsecured credit cards, you need to have a decent credit history, you can EASILY apply for secured or a 'credit builder' card (I used both for a year to boost my credit score through the same bank in the US division). They also, with the opening of a bank account, AND they offered an international debit card with no fees on the card. That's just the first one I pulled up, and I'm sure there's more.

Dina also has a point with some US banks giving credit cards. A quick google search brings up several banks that allow foreign applicants. The only catch being that you cannot fax documents, but instead have a certified/notarized copy of ID because of international laws (and something to do with terrorist funding).

But all this boils down to my point though. I'm done doing homework. I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that the people who are here have NEVER made an online purchase (considering it takes a credit or debit card to do that), always pay CASH to every single bill they've ever had and don't have the means or brains to do a few steps of work to have a way to get any sort of anything, would be here. It's nearly impossible the world over, to get most of the things in life without connecting to a credit/debit card or credit history.

Small searches on other major companies shows that majority of utility companies don't connect anything without either A)credit history (which means you have credit cards or loans ((which come on bank accounts))) B) A link to a credit card, or C) a link to a bank account, and even then, you could still be charged for a large upfront deposit. There are the few and far between 'pre-pay' utility companies or 3rd party companies that connect in thier name. But it seems those are fly-by-night most times anyways.

But again, most people are arguing over the fact they can't apply for credit cards, which has nothing to do with purchasing pre-paid debit 'gift cards'.

http://www.simon.com/giftcard/
http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/en/aboutourcards/gift_prepaid/index.html (high limit min yes, but if you are looking to play SL anyways with land and all that goodness, it's an option)
http://www.giftcards.com/
http://prepaid-gift-card.fimark.net/
http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/prepaid/visa_gift_card_order.jsp?view=Online
http://giftcard.deluxe.com/

That's just some of them... I've personally used giftcards.com and simon.com to help out other SL residents to get verified in the event they didn't want to use thier own payment info.

...the thing is, this is all irrelevant. LL don't want to charge money for basic accounts (as I said I think on the first page, or around there anyway). They don't need the funds, they have VC, and it's a disincentive and a barrier to people coming into SL even if it's just to see one build and then never log in again, but attract other people to do things in SL by their very presence. If company X puts up a concert or educational build or interactive advert foo in SL they can't have everyone paying $10 to get there, nobody would bother.

And not having to pay or use a card does attract people who might not be otherwise interested - sure, it's possible to get a card practically anywhere, but for many people it's just not worth the effort to try out some "game" that they might have heard of somewhere on the internet. LL want to get a critical mass of users with which SL can't be ignored.

Face it: "charge everyone" just isn't going to happen in the near future. It's just not how LL's business model is working. Forget it. All this "there's no right to use SL" stuff means nothing - it's neither a right nor a privilege, it's a specific policy decision.

Thank you Ordinal Malaprop.

and for those that have issues with me stating the charge universally...they alraedy are starting. How long till you think the stripend for premium goes to Zero.

Ordinal

Thank god somebody here is talking sense. LL don't want to charge for their own (imho very good) reasons. So they won't. Period. Now move on.

Khia

I never said my bank was a common one. I merely said it's the only one in town.



The Bank of Japan is the pseudo-government arm that sets monetary policy, similar to the Bank of England or the US Federal Reserve. When they say they are making it easier to get credit cards, what that means is they are in talks with banks which deal with the public to do so.

ETA: Since you are so keen on the BoJ, I thought I'd search out their nearest branch. It's about 3.5 hours travel time from my house. Granted, that's less than some African villagers travel to fetch drinking water, but still not entirely practical for my non-SL banking needs. I can'tsee myself switching to them, even assuming they take private individuals who are not fabulously wealthy as account holders (something which I doubt, given their status as a central bank).

I don't suppose you know a lot of people with private accounts in the US Federal Reserve?



Actually, my bank was pretty much chosen by my employer, not me. But it is a choice I agree with, because there is no other bank with a branch within 2 hours of travel time from my home.

The bank hopper thing is because I have moved house a lot while in Japan. A great many banks in Japan are regional in nature, unlike the situation in most other countries. My current bank, for example, only has branches in my prefecture.

I hope that people realize that Venture Capital (VC) is not a gift or free to LL or any other developer. Somewhere along the line the investors are expecting to see a return on their investment. Hopefully LL's business model allows for this eventuality.

If I received US $11 million in VC I'd be lying awake nights considering this liability that I've encumbered my company with and making sure I had a plan to make it all work out OK for everyone in the end.

I think that getting out of the "free" mode would have to be one of LL's priorities.

As long as the members perceive value, I don't see why anyone would object to a minimal $10 US per year fee. Most of us spend that a day on coffee, candy, cigs, newspapers etc.

Even if some one doesn't have a credit card, take the cash to bank, get a money order and mail it in.

Dina has more or less hit the nail for my response. VC isn't poof have some money, it's essentially like playing the stock market.

At some point, the investors will be looking towards returns. We have NOTHING to go on for REAL financial data of the company, except the words of Lindens that they are currently not profitable.

Usually in VC options (not always, but most of the time) there is a timeframe in which the company must turn profitable to return as much capital as possible in lump with payments over time if the company is still active. (At this time, details of VC monies are confidential as far as I could find.)

The most recent post I've seen about LL not being profitable was from about two to three weeks ago, which puts the mark at around 9 months of the deal being set. That's also coming from several different investors as well, so terms for each may be different. The reason it was named VC is because of the fact of the company struggling in financial aspects. Common terms can also include gaining/owning a portion of the company up front, or upon failure to pay (and subsequently the rights to sell).

If it comes to pass that LL can't process a return upon the deal end, or that these companies do own portions and after a certain amount of time, see LL unprofitable, then you could most certainly see fees and charges. The question is where it's passing to. While LL has said that Class 5 servers are this that and island increases, a few select quotes show it's about money. The question remains on who else they can keep passing the buck to. It's highly possible it could be right to those unverifieds.

So which do you prefer? Not paying now and taking the chance of losing everything later, or not being able to play... or take a few moments out of one day to get verified, then know you can cash out L's later to cover any nominal fee?

As for Ordinal Malaprop, it's certainly not irrelevant if you implemented a simple trial area. Most games and platforms the world over offer trial periods. Why couldn't LL do that same before requiring verification? Limit them to thier own 'mainland' of say 8 sims and no ability to teleport off of it, but still allow normal resi's to go back and help out, or give them no permissions to script or build and allow free reign on the mainland only. There are about 10 different ways off the top of my head to have a test/trial option and then if you choose, you can pony up 10 bucks a YEAR. 83cents (us) a month.


P.S. You can bring up SL's and Cory's dreams all you want... but it takes money to make it a reality... who's gonna pay for it? Someone has to run the servers there and someone still has to pay the servers. The internet works because everyone pays everyone. You pay your internet providers, people pay for websites, we see them for free most times.. but *someone* is still footing the bill AND making a profit.

You don't need to have a US based credit card to verify yourself or to make payments to LL.

I have an Australian credit card issued by my Australian bank here in Australia and I use it all the time when travelling overseas and for making purchases on the internet, its how I verified my identity for SL.

Yes, ta, I do know what venture capital is, and that a return is expected (or at least desired). But this subscriber model is by no means the only way that a company can make money, and actually conflicts with LL's goals of building up a critical userbase and attracting outside groups into SL to construct and present their own stuff. Both of those, and to an extent they feed each other, are hindered to greater or lesser degree by verification, up-front joining fees, restricted land access etc. If you make it harder or more expensive for people to join they are less likely to, particularly if they only intend to go to one specific event, and if you make it harder for them to reach events and shops they don't attract other people who will pay the company.

LL have removed verification requirements and trial periods and so on deliberately, to achieve a purpose. You may not agree that that purpose is a good one, or that this is a good method of achieving it, but they're hardly ignorant of that fact that a lot of people could pay a bit, and a fair number would if it was that or no SL. Repeating that fact just isn't going to lead to anything at all.

as to the post about trial periods that is fine except trial periods are informed ahead of time and usualy infer they are turned into an account like all others. What is being proposed here is not a trial. Accounts that are long standing accounts (2-3 years old) are being told thier "trial period" is over and they will be charged $10 a year?

Again I do find this funny that basic members are being asked of this question when a large percent cannot be in this forum to speak. It's like the old days in the US where men were deciding if women were equal...with no women in the room.

EDIT: why has this been feeling like beating a dead horse with a nuke from the start?