Basic Members....would you be willing to pay a SMALL yearly fee?

The difference is, I got off my ass and did some research. Just about anyone can do anything necessary. You've shot down each and every idea in this article, expecting us to give you answers and reasonable excuses, while you just keep saying, 'oh, but I can't'. Ironically, we have no information, but obviously you must have seen my work on anyone who has even given me a state, because I've blown all those excuses out of the water for anyone daring enough to complain about what they can't do and then given out info to 'prove thier point', while I've come up with hundreds of links to disprove them.

Frankly, there are hundreds of federal laws and state laws, organizations, codes, etc. that help people in hundreds of variations of situations.

And while you compare RL to SL, as I've said 100's of times before... this ISN'T RL. Every transaction in SL is a luxury along with playing it. If you were to compare this to RL, you'd have to say that I demand the luxury of a free oak handcrafted bed, merely cause the neighbor does. It doesn't work that way. There is no single company running my RL. Profitability is split, not paid to one entity, the same entity who can yank my life away from me in a heartbeat.

Ironically, you talk about personal agenda's... what's your purpose here? Please, define your reason for posting. I do have an agenda. To get rid of dead weight at minimal risk and not take the chance in losing SL altogether because a few people out of thousands refuse to cooperate. So again, tell me what you are doing here if you have no agenda, and are clearly voicing your opinion. Hypocrite much?

Your comment about the sales of islands wouldn't even cover the costs needed to upgrade everything to a class 5 server and leave enough to staff it, along with upcoming costs of upgrading. Amazing how narrow the sight line is. Look at the big picture. It costs them money to implement this. Time for dev's and hardware engingeers to get the servers all upgraded, without working on new or bugged features. Not to mention, some of this money is intended to hire new staff, so essentially some of the money they made on those sales will be stockpiled til a point they can possibly in the future be profitable.

As for profitability... that's NOT including VC's. A company doesn't define profitability by the ability to repay loans. It's not taking into account full loan amounts when it determines monthly payments. The fact is, LL is living off VC because they aren't making enough steady monthly income from the game at this point to pay the bills. If they were, they sure as hell wouldn't need VC to stay afloat.

As for the renting of property from a landlord, the point was missed. I will state it a bit more clear. All an unverified does is shift the money around that they get. A verified who spends money buying L, can rent the same spot and be a direct contributor, and the landlord still pays the same prices.

It still amazes me that some people hate the trial concept because they don't get full access to do whatever they want, however they want and are still here 6 months later, saying they deserve this game for free, and are online constantly, but refuse to work out a way to get 83 cents a month to play it.

So essentially you did a 'trial' period to test the waters and became premium?

Isn't that what the majority of people want? A trial period anywhere from 7-60 days, especially 60 being plenty of time to associate in SL can tell you either if would want to become part of SL, in the meantime, restricting creation or modification of any objects in world, but allowing them to go anywhere, or a free island connection that allows them to do all of that, but not allowed to the main grid.

Yes, I don't care if it gives an elitest attitude. But I don't want LL down the drain because this thing became bigger than they could manage and things are blowing up too far, too fast with not enough money to keep up.

seola, I'm not going to argue this with you ok? You're dead set that ANYONE can find a way to pay - I'm telling you that isn't so. If you can prove to me that ANYONE can pay no matter the situation then please do so - without citing items that can, and do, get shot down for any number of reasons.

As for the Class 5s? I never said BUY more of them - I said USE them. as in put the main servers that everything runs from above any and all island sales. Problem solved.

My "agenda"? To show you that your ideas don't always hold up. If you'd like to show me what can be done - PM me and you'll find out the city and state I live in. If you've lived here before you'll know what I mean. If not you don't have a foot to stand on thanks.

I'll say it again, there are places that do NOT care. Period. It would take more than ONE person going to the federal government to change these things ..... How do I know?

I've tried.

well if non paying accounts stay i would like that the customer support and ar get reserved to "real customers" of SL it sound nasty but when i do business why should i bother about spending a lot of money in costomer support for peoples that aren't even my customers?

Seola / Solar -

May I be completely snarky and point out that the title of the thread is :

"Basic Members...would you be willing to pay a SMALL yearly fee?"

not


"Basic Members...are you be able to pay a SMALL yearly fee?"


It's "will" vs. "won't"... not "can" vs. "can't".

May I point out that if one is unable to pay - one is unwilling? The two are linked.

So far, every comment from LL has always stressed that unverifieds aren't in any position to verify because they don't have access to any means of payment that LL will accept. It's hard for anyone to argue to have a "right" to SL when they're flatly refusing to contribute, it's much easier when you pretend that you can't instead.

You're right that it's partly a marketing trick, but then the basic premise becomes "they can pay/verify, we just have to show them it's worth it". There's no reason you can't convert unverifieds into trial accounts, at the end of which they either verify (doesn't cost anything) or the account gets purged. If someone doesn't verify by the end of the trial, there's only a negliable chance they ever will.

But when the pentacle of many's arguments on won't is because they can't the argument transcends to ways they can, to eliminate that excuse.

I've lived in situations like that and I've changed them. My mother lived in a situation like that and changed it because she did the work to do so. My grandmother is disabled in a podunk town in Missouri, yet she still is able to get a job where she works 20 hours a week taking care of the elderly, and a check from the government. My cousin, who is semi-mentally retarded, went to the city hall and got info on disabled workers in the city, and was able to get a job filing papers at a doctor's office who in turn recieves a tax break for hiring her.

I'm not proving anything to anyone anymore. Do your own homework. I've linked upon linked upon linked for all sorts of things and frankly, I'm sick of sitting here proving my point because I 'just don't know', while I have to take the word of other people and they don't prove that it's impossible. What makes you so special that you can sit back and say I can't and question me when I say you can? I'm sick of the self-righteous in some of these boards that force others to 'prove thier point' and if the others don't then that automatically means they are right.

Spend your own few hours on google using the proper search terms and find what's out there for YOU. Don't get so used to handouts, that you can't even look for ways to better a situation, and just pronounce that you can't, without doing the work and wait for people to show you the way.

Everyone should have to pay a small fee to play, and that's it, no questions or comments. Might as well close the post here too. If people paid, there'd be almost no grief attacks. Why? Because people pay for the accounts and they'd have to buy another one. Another reason is that the server wouldn't be swamped with duplicate accounts, people wouldn't create 10 alternate accounts just to go and camp somewhere. The solution to a lot of server problems would be solved with forcing people to pay small monthly or yearly fee's. Mainly because the server wouldn't be swamped with duplicates, and then linden could put some more money behind paying linden's to be online and help people.

There was a time when you could always find a linden available to help you, no matter what time of day it was or where you were, someone was always available to help. And now, I can never get help when I need it. If linden was to maybe charge us to play, they could put some more money behind their support. If people paid for accounts, the server would def. not be filled with new players constantly badgering lindens for help. It would be nice if we could get lindens to come and help with more advanced problems, such as server/client bugs.

One last thing, getting rid of duplicate accounts would prevent all those freebie items people keep constantly taking. Do you have any idea how much duplicating of items occurs? I saw one freebie shop that had over 5000+ items, most people took them all, and on average there is about 15 people there all day and all night taking items. The turn around time for new players coming is about 10-15 minutes. So in 15 minutes there are 15 new players taking 5000 new items, you do the math and tell me that you don't think the servers are being filled with duplicate crap. And keep in mind that it's been going on for a long time (months/years), and also keep in mind that there are dozens of shops just like this with thousands of free items being given out..

Close the post now, or maybe it would be better to keep it going.. either way Linden won't ever listen because Phillip is their leader.

Solar: "May I point out that if one is unable to pay - one is unwilling?"

I am both willing and able to say that's nonsense.

I am able but not willing to let the point slide by uncontested.

I am willing but not able to meet in RL over coffee to explain the difference between "willing" and "able".

I'm neither willing nor able to help you change the dictionary definitions of "willing" and "able".





Kitty: " You're right that it's partly a marketing trick, but then the basic premise becomes "they can pay/verify, we just have to show them it's worth it". There's no reason you can't convert unverifieds into trial accounts, at the end of which they either verify (doesn't cost anything) or the account gets purged. If someone doesn't verify by the end of the trial, there's only a negliable chance they ever will."

Another side to the "marketing trick" associated with free accounts is this: several of the high paying corp-types in SL clearly desire unfettered access for more visitors, and LL seems willing (and able!) to embrace a more web-like "cheap or free to surf but pay more to host" model for them.

I'm not opposed to a "renewal fee" as I stated earlier in this thread however, but that concept is a bit different than 'trial accounts'.

I think you'll find that the fact that LL clearly don't want to make everyone pay, or anyone pay, to access LL, and have made this very very clear, closes down this "discussion" (read: repetition of different versions of "unverifieds are lazy and/or cheap" quite adequately.

It doesn't make any more difference if you or anyone else thinks people should pay than if you thought they should all be able to balance on their heads, no hands.

You know something? The only "Self-righteous" people here are the ones attempting to place their own situations where they somehow managed to be able to turn an impossible - yes impossible - situation into one that works for them.

I frankly do not care what you, your mother, or your grandmother were able to do. In order, that is you, and them - no one else. Each situation is different - period.

Do not think for a moment that you - or myself for that matter 0 are in the majority when it comes to this. Link do not help at all seola - until you've actually lived in the exact same situation you cannot possibly have a single clue - that is my other point to the continued responses to you.

If I hear of something that doesn't put any of my information out there where some snotty little script kiddie hacking a web page can get to it with relative ease then you can bet I'll jump at that. it doesn't exist at this time. The local, state, and federal government is, at this time, useless. Local, state, and federal agencies are at this time, useless.

I'll say it one final time and hopefully you'll have enough information now to get it: Barring you or someone else being willing to pay for the account, or some miracle happening - well I won't be paying. If there's anyone else in a similar situation (and you'll never know, they cannot post here) then I'd be willing to bet THEY won't be paying either.

Linden Lab made their decision regarding Free Basic Accounts - frankly I'm of the mind that everyone making a fuss over it needs to just live with it if they're unwilling to do whatever is needed to help the poor SOBs that literally cannot pay: This INCLUDES being their sponsor.

I am both able and willing to tell you that in this instance the two are certainly linked. In the case of computer programs a person that is unable to pay will also be unwilling to do so in the fact that they will do whatever they can to use said program - this includes less than acceptable means of getting it.

If you are able to pay and unwilling to do so - why then that's your choice in the matter - it shows you would rather save your money.

If you're able and willing - good! do so. don't force it on those that are both unable and unwilling (there is no reason to pay for Second Life at the moment to begin with - none. There will never be a reason, barring the sudden need for land. Customer service is a joke, and the notion that the free basic accounts should be trial only goes to show the sort of people that have been posting here. restrictions, trials, all of these suggestions show a group of people who thnk they're somehow better than everyone else. You're not).

Kindly pardon the triple post but this also has to be said - and it's for the Lindens and Mods that occasionally peruse the threads:

This is a topic that irks the heck out of me - each and every time I see such a thing proposed it seems to scream to me that the poster and those supporting it actually think they're better than those that quite possibly cannot pay ANY fee at all.

I do not know how some could have gotten so out of touch - and to be honest I really don't care how it happened. The fact that they're able to even think this way shows that they honestly do not understand the most base of principles: I am not them. Those in a situation even remotely similar are not them.

It also irks me to see that they actually think the policies are going to change: you guys made it clear that you have no plans to change these policies - and still this topic continues to pop up.

Personally guys? I've had enough of it. I doubt I'll be making too many more responses to this thread, seeing as the majority of the posters are set in this line of thought and reasoning - it's become pointless to respond as each and every time I point out the obvious there's always someone there to respond with their own situation and how they overcame it.

I agree that there is a big difference between unwilling and unable. If you are unable then whether you are willing or not is a moot point. If you are able then it matters whether or not your willing.

I for one am quite able but see no reason why my hard earned money should go to a company or bolster an economy which gives no gain on what you put into it... it's an economic fallacy to give LL or even to bolster the SL economy with your money at this point as LL's resources are shaky at best and that's not even taking into consideration the customer service issues.

better late then never
Moving this thread to feature suggestions.

Q: (IF I were a) basic member... (whether because I was unwilling or unable to pay), would I be willing to pay a SMALL yearly fee?

A: yes....

*IF* I can pay that small yearly fee out of proceeds from selling L$ acquired within SL, without having to use PayPal or a CC.

*AND* if there was sufficient time and warning that an annual fee was necessary, for me to try to scrounge up and sell the necessary amount of L$ to hold onto my name and inventory. (By finding a sponsor or a friend who wants to keep me around, doing shop-greeter time or other means.)

Would this make me a 'verified' person in SL? No.

Is a SMALL fee unfair to long time unverifieds? Probably not.

Does this 'annual fee' reduce griefing, camping & rampant alts? No.

Does this prevent minors from getting on the adult grid? No.

Does this reduce overall lag on the main grid? No, or not noticably.

Am I 'paying my fair share' of SecondLife this way? Usage varies too much to say.

Does this make SL more 'fair' to everyone? Again, impossible to calculate.

Does this generate more revenue for LL? Insignificantly, but yes.

How long until the revenue from this change pays for the cost in labor to deploy it? Months? Years?

Can LL more easily clean out abandoned avatars with this plan? YES.

Will this plan reduce workload for the LL support staff? Highly doubtful.

Will this change make SL more attractive to new residents? As a contrived 'goal' for new unverifieds, it might be an interesting twist, for some. It will alienate others.

Will this plan get people to shut up about unverifieds? Never.

There are too many to go through one by one and quote/comment on but overall I agree with you on most of them... the one I quoted above I wanted to comment on because I agree with you but with a major caveat which is that LL would actually have to give fair notice (6 months, 1 year) and after that time start a cycle of clearing out accounts that have not been used to login for that long or in the case that if you didn't pay your account stayed around but remained dormant until you started paying again it would be from the first month of non payment. After the first time it would become a lot less bumpy since they could then make it public what the schedule and terms of such cleanups were and even if they wanted it to spin it as a pr thing could announce afterwards the number of dormant accounts/inventory objects cleared from the databases.

Though I honestly don't think that this was a necessary move as everyone knows this will never be taken seriously as a feature suggestion by the Lindens to your credit at least you waited for the thread to mostly burn out before moving it.

No, I'm telling you to go research your OWN situation to find out options available to you that people's taxes pay for. I was giving examples of how a little research can go a long way into bettering a life situation.

But you obviously don't care about becoming productive, or you wouldn't STILL be sitting here, just saying I can't, and not even giving info to help.

Funny, I thought the links I gave people DID help (as shown by my SL friends getting verified, some of them getting jobs in thier hometowns, etc.).

Amazing, that you say links on the web (which is YOUR only means of anything entertaining since you don't pay for it) even to government sites can't help you. Step off the self defeatist attitude for only 5 minutes and do some real work about real work and you'll be amazed.

Frankly, like I said, if you can't come up with the 80 odd cents to play... there's more constructive things you need to be doing with your time.

You must not go to movies, rent movies, go out for coffee, eat at McDonald's, drink a pop, or well, do anything that costs anything, so all you do is sit here all day condemning others for knowing there's more to life than moping.

I just find it incredibly hard to believe someone that can sit there and type all this out, is too handicapped in some way shape or form to get a job, or even have the brains to know how to go about getting the proper government assistance. Anyone who's every PMed or emailed me telling me thier situation, I've glady shown them the avenues to get what they want done, but I refuse to do such general homework to prove to someone who won't even share, but STILL sits there going...

"Well, what's going on with me can't be fixed and you're all wrong cause you can't prove me wrong!"

Lil absurd.

Yet again, another vague post in how it's not possible, and since we can't prove this person wrong, it automatically means they are right.

My responses in green, to help clarify.

OTHER

I'm on a "free" account. I buy L$.I go shopping for this money. Someone uses this money to pay for the land their shop is on, and so on. Not to mention that LL skims off the top of the money market.

Then I pay USD 56 a month for my land, paid monthly to Anshe Chung. How much of that goes straight into LL's coffers? USD 40? Somewhere around there?

95% of LL's income is money from the land. Prims and land are the true commodities in SL, and the only contact SL wants with their users. The LESS they have to deal with people, and the more they can deal with landlords such as Anshe Chung, the more money they get per hour's work. LL want NOTHING to do with all the little 512 sqm parcel people, trust me! I'm doing exactly what LL wants - paying them a fortune via proxy, and staying out of their hair. ( It's not a mistake that landlords like Anshe can offer a 1024 parcel to a free account for the the same price as LL will offer you your "free" 512 first land. LL may be off on a lot of things, but when it comes to money and land, they know exactly what they are doing.)

No, I do not think I should pay an additional USD 10 every month. This already costs me a minimum of USD 56 a month. Besides... Second Life and Linden Labs have provided us with THE worst customer service and abuse department I have EVER seen anywhere online. It's pathetic! I do not believe it's a simple lack of money. If I'm supposed to be forced to pay LL directly too, for service, they bloody well better start providing some - as currently they have ZERO service.

AD

1) In order to set aside 7-8L a day for a year then sell it to pay the $10 to LL you need a credit card or pay pal account. People outside the US have a hard enough time as it is getting these (non-US credit cards being void).

2) It wouldn't make him verified because he'd refuse to pay. Not "you pay you become verified. Thus you're verified because I implemented a pay system." I'd refuse to pay on principle: that being that I won't pay any recurring fee to play any MMO. I'm happy with what I can do in SL without needing to spend a DIME of my real life cash (of which I have none because I am deeply in dept to my parents as it is--yay for college). I also play Minions of Mirth (used to be better). Which cost a friend $25 (I think, he paid back when they offered a discount, it's now $30). We just share the account. Neither of us have logged in for over a year (until I did yesterday and spent a good 5 hours playing, hence why I say it used to be better. Used to have a party of up to 6 characters, now it's the standard 1).