Basic Members....would you be willing to pay a SMALL yearly fee?

Champie you are a true gentleman! This is the first time I have ever recieved a compliment in these wretched forums. Thank you.

Well, it was after several times of your having to repeat yourself that I looked into the matter. Sure enough, Some nations are woefully behind in infrastructure and also follow local and region banking customs that make financial transactions outside of their communities difficult. It's just like you said.

Io Zeno what is a Jinogist bigot?

Funny what 1 search can do: three banks in Nepal are issueing credit cards, one of those three only issues cards that are valid in Nepal and India, the same with the other two except they also issue international credit cards.

Namely, the Nabil Bank issues an internationally valid MasterCard while the Himalayan Bank issues an international VISA card.

Beat me to it.

Yay for you! Now can you please tell the Nepalese that they can now be official SL citizens just like Americans?

Now let's move on to Belize. What is the situation there?

USA banking systems aren't the only ones in the world that issue credit cards, banking accounts, and prepaid international 'gift' debit cards. This is exactly my point. People like you (that isn't meant to sound mean, even though it reads that way, I meant it more of an uneducated you) don't even TRY to look at the options available and because it doesn't fall in your lap, think it's impossible.

As Kitty showed, a simple search gives out EXACTLY the info that one needs to get what's required. In fact, I did one myself. On top of that: Half of Nepalese are living in extreme poverty, leaving only 13.5 million that are living above the poverty line ALONE. Add to THAT the unemployment rate is around 50%, add to THAT, that 40% of the population us UNDER 15 years old and lastly add to THAT and the internet is generally only available to the 4 largest cities where less than 15% of the total population lives and you are looking a relatively small amount that is eligible to play, above even poverty levels. Out of those that are eligible, are in an area with internet AND can afford to pay, can afford one of seven ways to get verified available to Nepalese.

Don't give me the Nepal crap. So 8 people from Nepal can't play. Big deal. Lose 8 free accounts over gaining 5 million gross a year? Hmm... tough business choice...

Belize:

One of the LEAST populated countries in South America. Roughly 240,000 people. Let's assume ALL of them have internet connection, the computer AND the internet. I'd trade them all for 5 million. Considering thier taxes... even a rich family after taxes is in poverty.

Average per capita income is 3500USD a year, while expenditures and taxes ranges close to 3000. Hardly a case.

Either way, any country you could come up with there are international options (some not even based in the US) to get verified. It's a matter of getting off thier lazy butts and ponying up 10 bucks. It's really sad that these people keep saying it's thier right for it to be free. They get worked up in a tizzy over playing a game for less that ONE USD PER MONTH. God forbid!!

OK then write off the Nepalese as a worthless bunch of people. Do you have any more countries to add to your list?

OK then write then off as worthless bums also. You guys sure are strict with your criteria.

Wow nice twist to an argument you lost.

Then why don't you get off the comp and go down there and work and give away all your money to them? Or join the Peace Corp?

You still don't have any idea at what I am getting at do you? I happen to agree with Linden Labs that every citizen in the world has a right to access SL yet you seem to think that citizenship in SL should be based on some middle class American ideal. I really don't understand that reasoning at all.

Amazing how close minded you can be when you refuse to hear facts.

SL IS *NOT* A RIGHT GUARANTEED YOU TO BY ANY NATIONAL OR INTERNATIONAL CONSTITUTION, LAW, CODE, etc.

Please, I BEG of you, show me where LL says it's a 'right' not to pay for it, as opposed to boosting numbers? EVERY single Linden response has been 'boost numbers'.

I'm glad that you can pigeon hole everyone else, and hold ME to YOUR standards. Hypocritical much?

Don't get all tizzy at me because I RESEARCHED the topic instead of shooting off my mouth, and getting truthful answers YOU don't want to hear because it doesn't fit YOUR ideal.

Hey, let's use YOUR theory.

How about since some people have land, and some don't, let's remove all tier payments, because as an SL citizen it's my RIGHT to own land.

Sounds just as absurd as you saying it's a right to play a game.

Hey, and while we are at it.... since some people can create thier own content, and some can't, EVERYONE should be able to access everyone else's content for free!

While we are at it, since SOME people can pay for internet, but others can't, let's make internet free.

So, why don't you give me something that DOESN'T apply to the above statements that *could* apply to SL?

I think most of you are missing the point that LL are trying to make SL more like the rest of the internet, adding 3D to the HTTP already in use.

Generally, the internet is free, but some sites do charge for access. Give SL and similar systems some time (a few years) and more users will charge for access.

The plain fact of the matter is that many people simply do not want to use CC on the net.

People in these countries have the infrastructure, internet, capable enough computers, and the money to play SL...but they don't have credit cards, bank accounts, or the means to sign up for some form of paypal?

Perhaps LL should look into other forms of payment then.

I think you're missing the point that companies/individuals pay their host to have a website up on the internet and you pay your ISP to be able to get on the internet.
Both the content provider and the content consumer are paying.

Which is exactly what this thread is about. Content providers (land owners) are already paying and they're being asked to pay for the content consumers (residents) which have very real costs associated with them.
When you talk about sites you need to pay for to access the content, in SL that simply means you have to buy a land pass to get onto a parcel.

Please stop throwing "like the internet" around when it's actually based on a model that you think is faulty.

It's a typo. Jingoist Bigot. Have a nice day.

I don't know what your are talking about Kitty. I get my cable line to the internet for free. That is my RIGHT. I also got my computer for free with the graphic card right inside. As is my RIGHT.

Really, people, would you say that everyone has a RIGHT to play World of Warcraft and it should be free?? Maybe you would, I shouldn't ask.

Anyhoo, as I said, the client is already free and will stay that way. Don't be surprised when your ability to access the cool content starts to be for a price, though.

If it's true that you're paying through LindeX and premium membership for the exact same rights as those who pay nothing, I have to wonder why you do it.

Quite likely there are priviledges you have that they don't have--to own land on the mainland, to buy property without having to trade the fruit of your SL creativity to others for their Lindens, etc.--any one of which qualifies as a single good reason why it's fair that you pay and they don't.

Linden Labs owns SL, and whatever you pay them only buys you a limited set of priviledges. If they want to provide an even more limited set of priviledges to people (including you) for free, that's their right.



I note that at Nabil Bank, the international MasterCard is only available to people who have accounts at their bank denominated in US dollars. In order to purchase foreign currency at Nabil Bank (if one wanted to set up a Dollar account there in order to apply for their international MasterCard to pay a one-time $10 fee for Basic membership, for example), one must submit this form. The website is vague about minimum balances, holding periods, and interest rates, and I was left to wonder what they mean by "Payment of 100% of billed amount by due date."

At Himalayan Bank one likewise must have some other account in order to qualify for the (prepaid) international Visa card, plus pay a one-time fee of $40, plus fund it (pre-pay) to the tune of $2,000. One may replenish the card's initial balance "if he/she again becomes eligible to purchase the foreign currency." Not something I'd get into just so I could play SL.

I'm an American living abroad. I have several American bank accounts, credit cards, and check cards. I have a PayPal account, set up when I was in the States. My underaged unemployed children receive unsolicited credit cards in the mail. I have no bank accounts in the country in which I live--it just isn't worth it to me, although it is "possible." Most locals also do not have bank accounts--not because they don't have money, but because the banks are rapacious. They charge substantial fees for everything. Some banks here have fees for depositing money, fees for withdrawing money, fees for no account activity, fees for opening accounts, fees for closing accounts, etc. Realistically, Americans living here need to have one month's worth of income extra to leave in the banks for processing and clearing, so that each month they deposit their current paycheck and withdraw last month's.

My PayPal account was suspended for several months simply because I logged on a few times from a foreign IP, until I convinced them (after much faxing of bank statements and utility bills and passports and drivers licenses) whatever it was they needed convincing of. Living overseas, many expatriates here wish they could use Skype. They have American credit cards, bank accounts, and PayPal accounts (and often local accounts as well), but Skype does not allow them to use those forms of payment from foreign IP's. While I was able to set up Skype by setting up a MoneyBookers account (after several days of faxing bank statements, utility bills, passports, credit cards, etc., and before MoneyBookers policy changed), most Americans here end up just not using Skype, because it's too hard to set up. I bring up these examples just to demonstrate how different it is doing normal Internet business from overseas.

A lot of business here is done in cash. There is also a lot of depositing funds into other people's accounts (instead of sending checks) and using services such as Western Union. So it would be quite common to find someone with a computer and DSL and no bank account.

I think it should be possible for you guys to make your arguments against a free level of SL citizenship without making judgements about how easy it is for people in other lands to pay $10 with a credit card or PayPal.

I am premium because I went to own land and paid yearly. I have since downgraded, BUT I still buy Lindens on the LindeX to shop. Unverifieds can not do that.



Sure, owning land, which outside of a 512, I have to pay MORE for to be able to enjoy. And even more so if I want others to enjoy it. I'm not a big land owner at all, but I do appreciate that fact that some that are providing quality content are getting crapped on in favor of unverified.



Check closer, you only checked out the extreme's options. NOT all of them.



And even for these banks, it stops others from getting offshore (and perfectly legal and checkable) prepaid debit gift cards?



I've never heard of Paypal doing such a thing and in the case of an account lock, all you need to do is fax verification over 1 method of ID. Mine was locked cause I couldn't remember the password and guessed wrong a few times. Either way, if your case is true, then the issue probably isn't because it's a foreign IP, but what they designated as a 'home' IP base for you and it was pinged through to foreign IP's, which isn't the case for nationals living in thier own country.



And yet again, this stops people from other means away from Paypal? This is also my exact point. People pick apart one method, but don't even attempt on other ones. And when told of other options, they say 'op, not possible' without even checking.

I've easily argued against other levels of SL citizenship, and such, but it ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS comes back to the argument of 'well, not every single person in the whole wide world can have verification means'. The whole world is classist when it comes to business and LL is a business. Even with my 'trial isle' idea.... people STILL come up with ways to change it around to a 'well, so and so in the tribe in the middle of nowhere might get internet, but can't get verified'.

Risk Versus Reward. That's what it comes down to. If it were the case that LL was profitable right this moment, I'd probably care less right now about unverified's not contributing, but LL is operating in the red, and the new CFO (take a look into his history, btw and see just what kind of experiences he leads) made it clear that opening this up, brings a few new resi's yes, and that brings in RL corporate dollars (which by the way are mostly American), which brings more which brings more people, etc. The cycle never ends, but the cycle completely skips the people who built this game into what it is in the first place. ETA: But it certainly doesn't fix long terms, such as stability, servers, and other necessary assets to keep going, along with long term residents.

Thanks for your effort to share some real experience. Everything you said jives with information I was able to find regarding banking/credit card practices in some areas around the globe.

It seems that the problem with free accounts is that LL has also eliminated any possibility of verifying age, or at least making it difficult for most under 18 people to gain access.

I think that the free acounts help LL fulfill several goals..
1. It opens access to many more people around the globe
2. It generates an enormous amount of publicity because of its rapid growth
3. It allows commercial interests to encourage potential customers to log in to participate in their marketing projects without requiring those users to establish accounts using credit cards, etc.
4. It makes the world more exciting and vibrant by bringing in more and more potential participants in its community and economy (people who may buy L$ or upgrade accounts, rent land, etc.)
5. It demonstrates proof of concept and provides a truer measure of LL technical achievements (some may question if they are successful, I think they are despite many ongoing issues).

Thats all I can think of.

I can understand the concern of free accounts and the negative consequences. However, I think tht LL has determined correctly that the advantagres outweigh the disadvantages by a huge margin.

Well, how would YOU go about buying a prepaid debit card from an offshore bank, if you didn't already have a credit card, checking account, or PayPal?



Actually, the first time I faxed PayPal my documents, they simply didn't acknowledge receiving them. I imagine the fax went to the wrong person, or is paperclipped to someone else's file, or something like that. However, it took a couple of weeks of waiting to see if it might get to the right person before I tried again; the second time I was told there was no hope of reinstating my account. After a year or so went by, I tried again (having an actual need for PayPal at the time) and was quickly reinstated. But I figure not everyone has the same bad luck I did with PayPal customer service, and so hope most people in my situation today could get reinstated in a few days like I did the last try.

With regards to Skype, they allow PayPal and credit card payments among their payment options--but not to every user. In the case of people using my IP, we are offered only Moneybookers initially, then after a year or so credit cards or PayPal are sometimes offered as options; so Skype is the one being cautions, I believe, rather than PayPal.



There are different payment methods that would work, but I don't imagine they're the same for each country. Where I'm living now, SL could sell prepaid game cards, accept payments from cellphone "wallets," or publish a bank account number to which players could deposit funds (at local branches of the bank) or wire funds. I imagine in some countries entrepreneurs are already making money by reselling Linden dollars for cash.

I myself am undecided between the advantages of identity verification and the advantages of anonymity (I see good reasons for both). I would like to see a good discussion on that issue, but that's not the topic here. For this topic, I do think it is germane that people LL wants to include in their virtual reality can't always practically use the payment options currently supported.

Frankly, I'm really sick and tired of unverifieds being condescending to people who spend actual money on SL. I don't need the constant "OMG! Are you crazy or something? Hahaha spending money!" when it's the people who do that keep SL running.

So now that it's obvious that they can get credit cards after all, the reason they don't is because it takes an effort?
I never needed and still don't need a credit card for anything I buy in RL, I got mine for the sole purpose of making online payments and yes that included filling out a form and making trips to the bank. There was no little bird that flew in and dropped it on my lap .
Payment due by due date means that it's a credit card with no actual long lasting credit attached to it. If your card gets issued with a $1000 limit and you spend $500 of it in one month, then you have to pay the outstanding balance in full by the end of the month.