Zoning. Yes or No ?

Well, that's the problem with assumptions - they are so often wrong and based on no tangible means of support.

As for "done by us" or by LL - zoning is something done "to" people by others and by themselves. I do not think that anything other than voluntary participation in zoning is appropriate in virtual worlds... certainly existing content must be insulated from post facto zoning restrictions - including modifications to existing builds.

You are creating the equivalent of a private island with the Land Trust. I think it is a great idea and your community should flourish. But SL already has LL zoned communities with iron clad enforcable charters that are being flouted and ignored.

With the lack of Linden patrolling, official SL Zoning just cannot work, as they are the only ones who can truly take any action.

Yup - what Shadow said. If you don't want a club or mall showing up in your backyard, buy a Private SIM or sign up to live on someone else's zone controlled private SIM. Leave the rest of us out of it.

One thing that I have noticed - clubs and malls come and go. They rarely stay forever. So I'd much rather take my chance with a club moving in behind me than with a player run government. Clubs come and go but assholes are forever.

I am for the idea of zoning. I think anything that (theoretically) gives us more control over our SL, such as choosing the type of environment where we'd like to buy land, is a good thing. However, I am against player-run government for the many reasons cited above in this thread. And I'm also not sure how effectively the Lindens could enforce zoning on their own. If the entire grid (minus the private islands) was zoned right now, it would probably take a SL Zoning Commission comprised of at least two Lindens to manage all disputes and petitions; just imagine how many they'd need when those millions of SL residents start showing up.

I'd also like to add my observation that Luna hasn't been a failure in the least. I had a shop in Luna, and I tracked purchases made there from mid-March to mid-July (four months). Luna and Aqua were my two best selling locations (with about equal sales totals), and this was back when Briana had her very popular Galleria Mall in Aqua, so I benefitted greatly from that traffic at my Aqua store. The problem with Luna is that the rent is so damned high since it's got very limited spaces and it's auctioned off. Luna is a really good place to get exposure, I still get people IMing me asking me where my Luna store went, months after I shut it down in July.

Since SL is a big experiment anyway, maybe the Lindens should try out some zoning on a limited, voluntary basis. Perhaps a block of new sims just brought online could be used for this purpose, with Lindens setting zoning according to some sort of input from the general public as well as current land use statistics about how much land should be set aside for different designations. In real life, the main zoning categories that I know of are residential (both R1 meaning "single family dwellings" and R2 meaning apartments/condos/townhouses), commercial, industrial/light industrial, and mixed use (both residential and commercial); perhaps these could be modified as a basis for experimental SL zoning categories.

Perhaps zoning on a large scale in SL would be a dismal failure. I guess we wouldn't know until it was tried.

A lot of people are talking about "resource management" as an approach to controlling land use and I don't see that as being enforceable directly. You could in theroy restrict the holding of events in a sim by not making the area an avalible selection on the events calander, etc, but you can't restrict the actual flow and concentration of people which is likely one of the biggest contributors of lag to any sim. Even Montmartre, a usualy peacefull and low lag island, will start to see the FPS go down when the island happens to be hosting, say, a barn dance, a well-attended art show and a Knot So Best Quiz on the same day. Or take Spittoonie Island, which is generaly tolerable considering all the scripted stuff and usual visitors there but becomes laggy as frozen syrup on Bingo night.

That said: I would support LL enacting a zoneing policy on a few select new sims, especialy residential only zoneing. Why? Because I think there's sufficent demand for it from which LL could benifit in terms of selling the land and making the player's experience more enjoyable. I'll point to Abacus as an example: it's a private island owned by Jamie Otis. He's turned it into a beautiful looking residential area by setting up streets and landscaping, then renting out plots to people who want to live there (which the tenant can build on himself or have something built for him on). I know he'd like to break even if not turn a profit by doing this, and if the builds on the island are a good indicator, I think he'll do it. I can't immagine LL not wanting to benifit from this sort of thing, and if you're the type who would rather not live in such a sim, you don't have to move there. Simple enough. But people who constantly worry about whether a club will open in their backyard tomorow are likely to flock there.

What about zoneing by and for residents? Currently, there's a few ways in which this is possible:
--One person owns the land and makes the rules.
--A group owns the land and makes the rules.
(For zoneing to be effective in the above two situations, you have to own a lot of land.)
--A group of like-minded landowners living in the same area get togeather and form an agreement over how to build on the land.
--A realator sells land to a person under the provision that the person it's being sold to follow a building/zoneing code. (If you don't like it, don't move there)
(This is more cost and time efficent for the average individual or group but these require some sort of enforcement power to be effective, or else people will do whatever they want anyway. The obvious solution I see is contract law. If you sign a contract saying that you will use the land in a specified maner AND have an outlet where you can bring a complaint against someone for breach of contract and have it enforced without resorting to mafia-like tactics, lag bombs, land banning and the Sim's Shadow Government, this situation actualy becomes viable. *waits for anti-government people to start jumping at her*.)
--Probably other ways that I haven't thought of.

Personaly, I would like to see more people carrying out the first and second options and Linden incentives offered to such people moreso than now. I would love to see more themed builds like Neutralmburg (I may not agree with their governing principles but it is an attractive area), SimCast, Abacus, etc.: towns, cities, wilderness retreats, fantasy worlds...but also as important, I want those who wish for anarchy to continue to enjoy it as well.

:d

Actually thank you Hiro for disecting my Post and no the use of the word was not incorrect.
The Statments were in retort thus they were simply articulated to express a track of thought of where SL would go were Zoning instituted.

Some examples of "PAST" Zoning would be the Housing developments that SL had in place at one time. Lusk being one of them. Rules were Hard to enforce as there constantly grew a shortage of Lindens to arbitrate disputes. In addtion the residents had limitations on builds in the area. Thus leading them to move out quickly when the Rules interfered with thier game play.

Some things that would happen if you Zoned.

#1 Rules for certain areas would be put in place. Ok thats something to be expected. However those rules would slowly get ammeded when someone found a loop hole that did not apply.

#2 Well LL doesnt have the resources to polices up these Zoned areas thus some form of Player Run or Controlled Police force would be drafted sort of like a neighborhood watch.

Hence the birth of another player run corruption takes place.

#3 Now with a "Police Force" in place you have just given players the ability to be controlling over other players and infringing up on their rights. This also elaborates back to my statement of Govermental control as it would be sanctioned by LL in order to enforce.

#4 Thus leads back to my statment Governmental control equals Player Run government because in effect now you have players in charge of players which are sanctioned by the world controling forces which in turn leads to a much larger problem than they had to begin with.

#5 People under certain rules would move out of that Sim and in effect by Zoning Land you would promote the Land Barrons back in power as Sims zoned with less controls would be High priorty purchases and then quadrupled on resale to the average Joe.

#6 there are to many other consiquences to take into play when enacting Zoning its not as simple as saying this sim will be this and this sim will be that as over time you will have 400 sims in SL and only 100 of them effectively usable by the general populace due to controls put on the other 300.

Do some study Hiro on Cause and Effect. In addition do some study in the Chaos theory. Both apply to SL dynamicaly because of the limited resources and the single controling environment of LL.

If you think Zoning will help SL your Highly Mistaken it has been done and it was a nightmare when policy wasnt enforced. You would have a much larger rage against the machine when more policy was enacted but not enforced to move forward.

Had LL the resources to have 1 linden regulate each sim Id say go for it as it would be an all day job alone for that linden in that sim. But the minute you let any player help in enforcing any controls put on a sim or sim area that is not privately owned you are sincerely asking for trouble.

So in essence No Zoning! Be smart ask for more intelegent things like more controls on land for the user. If that was in place then more of your private little governments could actually have control and enforce their governmental ruling. However, it would not affect the rest of SL nor the land of any private player or group.

So thus again my statment stands,




So State Slipper Slope if you will. However before you do take off the blinders and look at the big picture. As I see more people are narrowly focusing on topics and do not take into account the cause and effect of each topics counter parts on the forums.

Do I have a solution right now ...No I do not.

But at the same time I know what has been tried in the past and considering the things people are asking for I am astute enough to know it won't work from previous testing.

So again I say No to Zoning based on my previous observations and notation.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

Well, looks like we found a hot button issue here! Fortunately for us, and we seem to forget this from time to time, SL is nothing like RL in the zoning issue, since we in SL don't have to worry about a new landfill going up across from our house due to queer (and I mean that queer=strange not queer=derogatory) zoning laws.

Firstly for the love of Linden, zoning isn't purely govermental. I mean, sure, usually in a community zoning comes from the local gov but it's because the residents were like "hey, no more strip clubs across the street from church, thanks!" Plus, SL already has a goverment- the Lindens. No, they don't work like any other goverment on Earth because IT'S A GAME!! I mean, if they all decided to take that $8 million and run off to Tahiti, or died in a tragic accident, then this whole point would be totally moot. They seem to be completely swamped with stuff to do, just to keep everyone happy, on top of coming out with new things for the game, so I think we need to cut them a little bit of slack.

Secondly, shut your mouth, go through the couch, and mail LL your extra $5 in change so they can afford to upgrade their servers. Yes, lag can be attributed to a lot of people in an area, but it seems that zoning is a short term solution to a long term problem. It's more than just the people in a sector which affect lag, it's the server, the server side/client side connection speed, and your computer. Plus, consider that your computer is having to render everything based off of what is fed to you from LL- server bogged down=info sent more slowly=your computer having to sprint to keep up. So if we're going to bitch about something, how about thinking for two seconds and saying "Hey! Faster servers and server based rendering would mean...LESS LAG!!"

and that would make everyone happy.

Lusk's Charter is actually quite old; it is one of those LL zoned communities. I think the main difference is that some members of the community got involved, got organized, and have worked hard to find a way to keep the community functioning according to its charter. But moreso than anywhere else, this has the most potential to work in the historically zoned communities. Organize!

At one point, not all that long ago, LL announced that they were ceasing supporting the "chartered" communities, such as Darkwood. Is Lusk still being actively supported by LL, such as rule enforcement, land management, etc?

Who's to say what's a club and what's a public residence? If you have a lot of friends who visit you often will you be forced to move because you're too popular? This is a slippery slope and one I'd rather not see us start down at all.

I believe that you're correct in pointing out that there are technological problems associated with this issue and that's something the Lindens need to adress...I think that's where a lot of the $8 billion is going. I'm not sure if you're correct in your statements about how the client-server setup works but I do know that however they've done it, the client/server model LL has right now is preaty integral to their business and technology plans and probably isn't going to change drasticly anytime soon.

I can't consider myself a representitive judge on how bad lag in the game is, considering I have a lousy integrated video chip in my computer.

However, the issues on the table here are both technical *and* social: the social issue is whether people want more controll over the appearance of the land surounding them. You can't solve that with a server upgrade.

But even if you organize, if just one "bad" person buys land in a LL zoned community, it will require a Linden to straighten out the offense. That is if you can get one to agree to enforce the rules.

You as the land trust can only inform the offender of their transgression. You have no real power. Once you own all the land, then you have policing power, hence the private island comparison.

Without us owning all of the land in Brown (some of which is owned by Charter members with build/edit/scripts left on and never visited), it was doomed from the start.

If you own all of Lusk, then your project will succeed and I will be very happy that you are able to experience what I couldn't.

I say YES ! to zones.

Cause it will slightly decrease the lag cause the items your computer has to load will be limited to certain zones.
wich will also take less downstream , wich is a good thing for people who have 'limited' downstream ability, like me

I think this is an excellent point Chip! It is to me for a lot of this same reason, that I feel zoned communities should be left up to the players of SL and not the Lindens. Then each player community can make its own definition for these sorts of things. If the players do not like what one player community states in their regulations, they do not have to participate in that particular community.

Chip, you and I have agreed on a lot of issues (*not all*) that involve taking things away from the Lindens and putting them into the hands of the SL players. To me, this issue should be no different.

Hey Loki - I haven't read through all five pages of posts, but how 'bout adding a poll to this thread? For topics such as this, the polling feature is a helpful at-a-glance gauge of player opinion. (I know, everybody hates 'em but I for one love 'em.)

As for me, I have previously advocated zoning. However, as so many others have indicated, the drawbacks seem to outweigh the benefits.

I am for zoning:

a) In newly-released Sims only
b) In only a small (2% - 20%) percentage of those new Sims
c) Only if the tools to police zoning are available

Currently, only LL has the power to police zoning in areas where land is owned, and not rented from one individual. I believe that in the future (a few months to a few years), that will change - though Nolan accuses me of mind-reading LL in making that assumption - and LL will only concern itself with technical issues, not community issues. At that time, the tools for community policing will have to be available, and I have no clue as to how/what/where/if that can be done in a fair and unexpoitable way.

I agree with you completely. This is not something the Lindens should be concerning themselves with. It's wonderful when groups of like-minded players get together and create a community that has some aesthetic harmony. SL already provides ample opportunity for people to do just that, by deciding what they want to do, forming a group, buying a private sim or as much contiguous land as they can get on the mainland, and then doing what makes them happy. I applaud those kinds of efforts, as long as they understand that they have no right whatsoever to try and enforce their aesthetic on anyone beyond the boders of the land they own.

What I worry about is the rights of the odd man out in a sim. When players put social (or less polite) pressure on someone to conform to their particular vision of how things should be they end up stifling the creativity and self expression of the person they're pressuring. Not only is it unfair, it could also prevent that person from doing something truly innovative that doesn't fit with the narrow vision that other people might force them to conform to. Who am I to dictate to anyone else how they should express themselves? To me it seems the height of arrogance to believe that my subjective tastes are more important than someone else's right to unrestricted self expression on their own land.

For people who want to form cohesive communities, I say more power to you. Avail yourselves of the tools we already have... but if you feel you have some right to force your tastes on others who haven't signed on to be part of your aesthetic vision then you are, in a way, the antithesis of what SL should stand for... namely, creative freedom and self expression. Your right to tell other people what to do ends abruptly at the borders of your parcel.

Ok just throwing this in as an example only;

I own about half of Ross I vote that Ross be a residental sim. there is a huge mall in ross. That person owns about 1/3 of the sim so lets just assume that their vote is to be a commercial sim. Now they get the rest of the residents of Ross to vote for commercialism. Now Ross is a commercial sim.

Question: How do they get me to move without vioating the TOS?
Or
How do they get me to change my lot to a commercial lot?


Cat

That's why zoneing in already settled sims can't be done, unless the landowners in a sim mutaly agree on what they want. Even then, it would have to be unanamous among the people who would be affected.

PG/Mature is a kind of zoning. I buy PG land only to try to avoid dance clubs and spinning billboards, since they seem to concentrate in Mature sims. I'd just prefer a more direct and reliable mechanism. I hope LL will experiment with some zoned sims so we can see how it works out. I agree it would have to be based on things which could be automated, like limiting avatars per m2 or not allowing objects to be set to sale.

I think you have to be a moderator to start a poll.

Thanks for all the insight, I think it is an important topic and constructive conversation is a good thing.

One point I dont think that I have made really clear is that a lot of the zoning tools could be built into the land and be automatic. I dont know all the variables that would apply best, but this is an example for conversation.

Right now, we have limited use of prims based on the size land we own, 512m supports 117 prims, 1024m supports 234 prims, and so on. This is a built in feature that is automatic, if on your 512m plot you try to rez the 118th prim, you get a message saying your plot is full and you cant place the prim. It automatically denies it. The same could be put in place for scripts, light objects, physics, etc. If you try to exceed what the parcel will support, it just does not let you add it, no need for Linden involvement or community enforcement.

This is a more shared approach to fairly using sim resources and sort of different than straight residential and/or commercial zoning. Different regions could have different quotas on the resource use, commercial areas would have a greater quantity available, much as some regions, like the city sims, have twice the allotment of prims. This breakdown would cause a natural form of zoning, as commercial ventures would seek the sims with greater resources available.

I have heard Philip Linden speak of things along these lines, Im just trying to get some thoughts on that as well.

And also, any zoning along these lines would only apply to new sims that do not have current settlers. The zoning standards should be plainly obvious so that prospective residents know the standards before purchase.

Thanks again for all the good points being made.

Anyone can start a poll now. It's an option that you select when you create a new thread. Scroll all the way to the bottom of the new thread edit page to see the poll option.

Hell Yes!

no. until things like the tos and cs are enforced uniformly, then adding a new kind of policy to enforce will make ll's headache even bigger.

policies without meaningful, transparent, and consistent enforcement are usually worse than no policy at all.