The Most Retarded Statement I've Heard in Quite Some Time.

Someone showed up at my place today wearing a WWII German uniform, complete with SS insignia on the lapel, and toting a Mauser rifle. Needless to say I found this person's choice of attire a bit distasteful to say the least. Here's the relevant portion of the conversation (name removed):


I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that last statement. The guy is going around wearing the most prolific symbol of intolerance in world history, and then he doesn't understand why people just happen to be intolerant every place he goes.

I'm having the darndest time deciding just which of his notions was the most retarded. Was it the one about the guards being friends with their victims, the one about not everyone in a Nazi uniform was all that bad, or that last one about intolerance towards symbols of intolerance? So hard to decide.

I really don't have any problem with people roleplaying German soldiers. If he built a concentration camp with ovens that would be a different story. One of my very good female friends in SL made an SS uniform and I know her well enough to know she's not celebrating or condoning the holocaust and she's certainly not a white supremecist. Nazis are an archetypal "bad guy" and that's the context I see it in when people roleplay them.

Doesn't sound to me as though he knows much about the details of history. My first clue was that he was citing Discovery Channel, which also happens to engage in endless, unfounded speculation about UFOs and ghosts. It's a quasi-factual source of entertainment, not history. Even the History Channel has a few problems in that area. With the mountains of extensive literature on that period, it's amusing that he was referring to a TV program and still claimed to be informed.



If one tries hard enough, one can attempt to justify almost anything. My hat's off to you for handling it with calm aplomb and intelligence.

Anything related to Nazi symbology or iconography is banned outright in Germany. Even computer games which replay WW2 cannot use swastikas if they are to be sold in Germany. That's hardly intolerance -- it's a means the Germans have arrived at to try to atone for that period of history, and an attempt to prevent those emotional symbols from appearing again.

That said, if someone is roleplaying the German side in WW2 and does not use Nazi icons or anti-Semitic slogans I don't see any problem. Other than the fact that they ... you know, sorta lost the battle for History.

Actually i've heard stories of Nazi's befriending POWs, that is that they didn't try to free them or anything, but they weren't complete jackasses like the movies display. It's a sticky subject because of what happened, but it's niave to think that every person in the german army fully supported hitler's ideals. SS would come to your house and assassinate you if you and your family if you spoke up against Hitler. There's a lot of people who decided they'd rather join the army and keep low brow rather than risk their families and their own life.

It's not even proper to call the German Army in WWII Nazi's really since not all of them were a part of the political ideal of nazism, but were just people who were joining the army for money, food, better treatment (Germany was in a depression during the time of pre-WWII and not all places were the best).

Just as i'm sure not everyone in the military in America supports Bush's ideals and manors, so it is the same with Hitler's army.

Although I don't condone nazism I can't see anything he said that could be considered offensive. And there are plenty of people who are fascinated with that time and WWII Germany.

OMG I was sooo offended. Im gonna post about it on an internet message board!!!!

INTERNET!!!!!!!!

Which is why Germany is having the hardest time getting over that part of their past. Because you can't heal a wound by pretending it doesn't exist. It'll only get worse, you just won't see it getting worse.

well, he has already accomplished what he set out to do when going around with that outfit on... he got someone to get upset and say mean things about him and give him the attention he was looking for...

if people would learn to ignore the attention seekers and let them do their thing without makin it obvious you are bothered by it, there would be no problem...

when he said "Out hunting 'allies'" the response should have been "Well, have fun and good luck." and he would have gone his merry way and not been involved in your life anymore...

On a slightly related note... you have a borg avatar? Can I see it, and maybe buy a copy?

[edit] And actually i'm more offended by the title of this thread than I would be seeing someone wearing a nazi uniform in SL.

This person is a child. Why must we continue to debate the activities of children as if they were adults? It is one of the oddest things I see in Second Life.

For all those who seem to be under the impression that this thread is about my having been offended by a uniform, it's not, so kindly stop responding as if it were. I realize it's easy to make assumptions like that whenever the word "Nazi" comes up, but please take a step back and realize that's exactly what they are, assumptions. For the record, if I had in fact been offended by this person, I would have said so in my post. Notice no such declaration is there. What this thread is about is the fact that someone made some rediculous statements, and that he was doltish enough to wonder why "everyone is so intolerant today" when he's wearing a symbol of intolerance. I found his apparent lack of historical knowledge, lack of social awareness, lack of forethought, and incapacity for reflection to be amusing so I shared the story. That's it. There was no fight, no exchange of hostilities, no offense. Please stop implying otherwise.

This thread also is not about whether every German alive in the 1940's was a Nazi, or why individuals may or may not have joined the army, and it's certainly not about whehter or not I should have wished the guy in the uniform luck. All it is is a semi-amusing story about an individual that I personally found to be lacking a few marbles. If you want to agree or disagree with me on that subject, please, you're more than welcome. For everyone else, I have a few suggestions, since I know none of you are thread hijackers, right?

Oh, and Torley, thanks for the kind plug. Yes, Lianne, I have several Borg avatars. The only one for sale right now is a drone. Locutus and the Queen will be available soon as well (along with every other Trek character from TOS throught Voyager). Swing by the Sci Fi Museum in Indigo some time if you're interested.

And I'm sorry that my referring to a statement as retarded has offended you. That was not my intent. I found the experience amusing, and thought some others might as well. My apologies if the title description was more colorful than you might have preferred.

So you're not offended by the uniform or by Nazis or by the person....I'm looking at this conversation you posted and I don't see anything about it that would suggest the person was nuts or even offensive....

But you say his statements are ridiculous, such as: "I'm having the darndest time deciding just which of his notions was the most retarded. Was it the one about the guards being friends with their victims, the one about not everyone in a Nazi uniform was all that bad"

Of course, to reply to this would fall under topic no-no #1 there.... So really the only reply this leaves is "I agree"

So by process of elimation...I agree. I guess.... o_0

But if all the statements that were made by him in the conversation are "unrelated to this thread" then what IS related to this thread?

Because it seems that the original post is unrelated to this thread as well since it's about 1.) Nazi history in that his statements are ridiculous, 2.) Him being an attention seeker by wearing this uniform, and 3.) German soldiers befriending POWs in WWII.

So here's the original post cutting out everything unrelated:




Also I'm sorry I thought you were offended by the uniform as you said, I didn't realize it wasn't about the uniform. Something led me astray there in your post...hmmm

"Someone showed up at my place today wearing a WWII German uniform, complete with SS insignia on the lapel, and toting a Mauser rifle"

"You: That doesn't change what the unfifom stands for"

"Leave that uniform home next time you come here please."

"The guy is going around wearing the most prolific symbol of intolerance in world history"

"the one about not everyone in a Nazi uniform was all that bad"

Damn. For the life of me I can't figure out where I got that idea from...

No, I'm not pesonally offended by the uniform itself. I was pointing out to him that SOME people would be, so it might not be the best choice of attire to go prancing around in. As such, I found it distasteful. How many different ways to I have to say that?


Of course I'm offended by actual Nazis. They are offensive by nature to everyone except other Nazis. That's what they do.


Not in this case, no. I felt he was being a moron. That doesn't mean he he offended me. To be offended I would have had to feel some form of insult towards me coming from him. There was none present. If I had to pick a phrase to describe my feeling at the time, I'd go with negatively amused. He demonstrated bad taste, lack of awareness, and childlike rebuttal ability, but he never offended me.


Which would be I didn't say he was nuts or offensive. I said he made some rediculous statements.


Come on Artemis. I know you, and I know you're smarter than this. Of course you can disagree with me. If you don't think it's rediculous to say what amounts to "dressing like a Nazi is okay because a few of them made friends with their victims", or "dressing like a Nazi is okay because not every German was a Nazi", then you have every right to say so.

What I was getting at in my "no-no's," as you put it, is that discussing the facts of guard/prisoner relations or 1940's German political demographics is not relevant here. What is relevant is whether or not the uniforme guy's citing of those (painfully obvious) things was an intelligent response to my original question. I said "Don't you think that might offend some people?" and he replied, "Not all Germans were bad." One has nothing to do with the other, which is what made it rediculous.

Of course not all Germans were bad, and of course not every enlisted man in the army was of Nazi mentality. Not every fireman actually puts out fires, but if I put on a fireman's outfit, I think it would be reasonable for people to assume that fighting fires is what I do. It's about what image and emotions the symbol evokes in the vast majority of people, not about the semantics of whether or not the image fits in every individual case.


What is related to this thread is the following:

1. He never answered my question about whether or not he had thought about the fact that he might be offending people. He only deflected it by stating the irrelevent.

2. He used EXTREME minority examples to justify some unspoken notion that the generally accepted meaning of a symbol isn't valid.

3. He was unable to discern the difference between seeing something in a movie and emulating it yourself.

4. He was unable to recognize that throwing an emotionally charged symbol in front of people's faces will evoke emotion. He really couldn't understand why people didn't want to tolerate his icons of intolerance.

I find all of that to be "retarded", and that's what this thread is about.


Ignoring the attrocities commited by saying a few guards made a few friends IS rediculous. That may or may not have happened (probably did due to Stockholm Syndrome), but it's irrelevant. I think most people are much more aware and much more concerned that the Nazis exterminated six million people, and victimized five million more than they are that an occasional guard may have made a friend or two. Referencing the very few simply doesn't hold up as an attempt to eclipse the message that those symbols send to most people. That's what was rediculous about it.


I don't care if he's an attention seeker. It wasn't my goal to grant or deny him any amount of attention. I wasn't trying to fight him, shut him down, support his efforts, or anything else. He can have all the attention he wants; it makes no difference to me, and has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I was saying.

The person who told me how I should have behaved in order to deny the guy the attention he wanted missed the point entirely. As a result he (maybe not deliberately) attempted to change the subject of what I was talking about. Your bringing it up again now doesn't make much sense.


Again, whether a few did or didn't has nothing to do with what made the statements rediculous.


Cute.


No need for sarcasm. That I DO find offensive. Okay, I guess I have to spell this out for you:

[/indent]

I see your points now and I agree. I think it could have been used with a bit more discretion then posting on the forums about how retarded it is, but whatever.

This however as i've said on other threads, I don't agree with.

The Swastika is NOT a symbol of hatred or intolerance. It's a symbol that predates Hitler by thousands of years and has since meant many things, among which being peace, balance, unity, power, and the universe. If you look in many cultures and religions you'll find it, in some Native American tribes it can be found as a symbol of peace, in China it's a symbol of Buddha, in Japan you could find it all over Shinto temples, as well as India, Korea, and many other countries.

It was only until 70 years ago when that hate mongering nut bag decided in his supersticious insanity to adopt the symbol, that it meant anything other than this. I use the symbol a lot as it sums up a lot of what I believe in religion and philosophy wise, and it's even placed on the front of my store in Gibson (from which i'd gained atleast one abuse report from despite having numerous notecards with explanations).

I'm hoping that someday the swastika will be free of it's negative conotations in the west (as of right now, it's only Most of America and Europe that still consider it a nazi symbol, everyone else thinks of it by it's true meaning).

Sounds like it was just one of the WWIIOLer people. They go around in uniforms like that a lot.

/smarmy ON

dang, I hate all those anti-nazi intollerent people out there!

Odd. All I read in that chatlog is you being a bully to a guy because of his avie. He wasn't going around shouting racial remarks, shooting people, or doing anything that should warrent verbal abuse besides having the misfourtune of running into you and your opinions. I bet you he was more likely emulating Nazis after some WW2 video game rather then some bad history. WW2 games have painted the picture that Nazis were just an endless supply of badguys, and the US was a one man army.

Ironic that someone who wants things to be as politically correct as possible would post in a thread "The Most Retarded Statement I've Heard in Quite Some Time."

I'm sure that more than one person who browses the forums has a developmentally disabled relative or friend. You've essentially rendered all of your arguments in the other thread utterly moot.

Way to go Hiro!

This is as far away from reality as it can possibly get. Have you been to Germany? History is very present indeed here and has been for decades.
In fact, the ever so German-friendly British press likes to blame Germans for being "obsessed" with their past, because it is discussed so intensely here.
In case you didn't notice, there has been a HUGE memorial built in the very centre of our capital, right next to the Reichstag. I cannot see how this is pretending the past didn't exist.

Banning nazi iconography - among other reasons - shows respect to the nazi victims and their descendants who live here and elsewhere in the world and also helps repressing new right-wing tendencies.

This is as far away from reality as it can possibly get. Have you been to Germany? History is very present indeed here and has been for decades.
In fact, the ever so German-friendly British press likes to blame Germans for being "obsessed" with their past, because it is discussed so intensely here.

In case you didn't notice, there has been a HUGE memorial built in the very centre of our capital, right next to the Reichstag. I cannot see how this is pretending the past didn't exist.

Banning nazi iconography - among other reasons - shows respect to the nazi victims and their descendants who live here and elsewhere in the world and also helps repressing new right-wing tendencies.

Actually, I don't think he was wearing a Nazi uniform. It sounds like a WW2 era Wehrmacht uniform. The nazi's were a political party and didn't actually have a uniform anymore that the Democrats or Republicans have uniforms. Although Nazi party members military personnel were usually given rank and choice assignments, the vast majority of soldiers were not Nazi party members.

I know that it's been said that the actual history has no bearing on this thread, but that's not entirely true. You can't demonize the millions of Germans who served in the military who were never near a concentration camp, or were even a Nazi party member. Now the SS were, for the most part, another story. Nazi party members with military ambitions were encouraged to join the SS. This was after the early rules were changed that did not allow Wehrmacht members to belong to a political party. So if you were going to find Nazi's in the Wehrmacht it was usually in the SS; which was a small portion of the military.

Tolerance doesn't mean you only have to accept stuff you like.

Well said, Anna. It's only been one generation since the war, but 50+ years ago one of the major concerns of the rest of Europe was due to the two Great Wars having been started by German militarism. The efforts of the German people to put that behind them and move into the cooperative mainstream of Europe is a thing to be admired. We're all stronger and richer from the awakening.

I don't want to speak for Chosen Few, but I took her post to mean that - regardless of this individual's uniform -- he had a very poor grasp of historical reality. Judging from her log, I'd say she was right.

Im sure this has already been said, but chosen your the one making the mistake here. There WERE german soldiers *gasp* get over it, did he say anything negative? did he say hail hitler? Between the 2 of you he was the only one that showed any wit and class, you just went off on the guy.