Out of touch - or - ahead of the curve?

I never post in off-topic because then I'd have to see the political and geographical origins of all the people I fight with in the forums, and realize that their problems with me stem from geography, politics, and culture and not the abstracted issues of a virtual world, which is something I still like to pretend exists.

When I raised my issues with "California" and SL, don't forget that it was in the context of the hippie dope-smoking group tools that spread all the income equally and make it possible for one officer to steal the land of another officer who paid for it and put tier on it, or for any rank-and-file member to paralyze a group and engineer a coup to steal land. It's criminal. I think you only have to read some of the novels about the 1960s, like "Mlilhouse" or "Drop City" by T. Coraghessan Boyle to see the anti-utopias inherrent in the utopias.

Loki really summed it up -- the role of California as an innovator, but the rest of the country as a buffer and a filter for some of the wackier ideas. Not to say wacky ideas don't originate on the East cost, but these two coasts do generally function as the "left brain" and the "right brain" of the nation.

To keep yammering about republican governors is to miss the point -- they exist not only due to the backlash to the hippie stuff, they exist because one feature of California has been its openness to both Mexian and Asian immigrants, and they tend to be more conservative voters. So when you bash Republican governors and try to see them as individuals as a problem, in fact, you're merely bashing your fellow human beings who are immigrants who hold the views they do for a reason -- and the reason often has to do with the oppressive societies they are fleeing, where land ownership and businesses and human rights are not protected.

Now, interestingly last night, when Philip was asked in the WA if the culture of California and San Francisco influenced his game, he answered "Of course." and when queried "in what ways" he answered "tolerance" and cited more tolerant attitudes in SF.

Well, interesting, eh? He singles out tolerance but not leftist/lunatic/liberal although some would say those are elements of the same spectrum. People in the WA immediately began arguing with Philip to show him he was out of touch with the games intolerance, and he talked philosophically about the balance of creativity and tolerance needed, i.e. he appeared to many to be giving a pass to W-Hat. This is the face of California, people, W-Hat. Read it and weep.

Is California "ahead" or "behind". I tend to think that hippie dope smoking cultures are actually profoundly conservative and backward pastoralist and 19th century utopianist communities mired in ancient history that are a backlash against the modern age. Nothing cutting edge about them at all. The Silicon Valley stuff is cutting edge, I guess, but also a throwback to the zealousness of the industrial age about technical solutions uber alles.

If it weren't for the two people I love more than anything in the world, both of whom have their roots here in the East, I might well gravitate towards San Francisco. The city represents the best and brightest hope for the future of the nation.

California as a whole? Ummm, not so much. Outside of San Francisco, parts of Los Angeles, and most of Northern California, large areas of the state suffer from the same sort of stubborn provinical backwoods Western conservatism that created the dustbowl, open pit mines, the Exxon Valdez, destruction of old-growth forest, overgrazing, Ted Stevens and other abominations against the natural order.

I have lived in California my whole life. I was born here I have been to San Fransisco once and never been to Hollywood. I'm a very liberal human being, I admit this. I'm tolerant of just about any behavior as long as it's legal and between consenting adults, but I'm a huge minority in the area of Ca I gre up in (Sacramento Valley). I grew up in a small town where til I was in HS cows outnumbered people. There was one openly gay guy and he got the shit kicked out of him on a regular basis. I tell people I live on Ca they automatically assume I live on the beach or close to Hollywood, It's just another ignorant stereotype from people who don't know any better I know but it gets really old after a while. Yes I think in some ways Ca is ahead of the curve for a lot of things, but I know all Californians aren't liberal granola. Trying to paint us that way is just another form of predjudice and I hate predjudice in all forms.

"the land of hippies in Haight-Ashbury"

I'd say whoever posted this is out of touch. I would think CA has changed quite a bit since the 70's.

Ingrid, you're not hearing the point. Historical movements affect countries, they surface, and they continue to shape the imagination. It doesn't mean that if the hippies literally left the seen, like the beatniks before them, or the punks after them, that if you keep talking about the hippies of the 1960s, that you are "hopelessly out of date". Duh, they are not literally there anymore and now there is a mixture of sk8trs and Internet salonists and whatever.

But the image and the psychology of the hippie commune thing persists. You have only to open up your group tools in the game to see this. Do you see how if you sell land in a group, the sales proceeds distribute equally to everyone in the group, regardless of who paid for the land or who pays the most tier? Think about that problem for awhile, and think if the word "California Hippie Commune" does not enter into your brain...if not "Siberian Collective Farm". Whatever! It's just a figure of speech, and you're taking it very literally as you do much of what I write which is mainly meant to be thought-provoking.

Cultural movements get going, they then can become establishment. For example, those little roach clips that you used to be able to find only in the most out-of-the-way little delis or deliciously illicit downtown stores in scruggy districts in the inner city are now in every single Hallmark store in the universe, now reborn as notecard holders. Hippie-era parents buy them and giggle and put them in their children's birthday goody bags. This is how culture works, it starts as some avant garde dissident thing then spreads out and infects everything sometimes and becomes so mundane as to be the boring establishment which the next generation fights.

Most people forming a collaborative group these days, in the game or out, will think "We need to have everything be equal and be in common." They'll simply fail to acknowledge or admire the role of the one entrepreneur who takes on responsibility and cost and forges ahead to get things done. Geez, you ought to know that, I'll be you are in the land group with just your alts -- and paying most of the tier. Well, if you have 3 live human beings each paying identical amounts of tier AND the upfront purchase price, ok, shoot me.

That's the same everywhere Maeve. I live in Fla and everyone assumes it's Miami, Grew up in Louisiana and it was New Orleans, Georgia... Atlanta, New York... Manhattan, etc...


Prok, if Phillip touted how tolerant SL is I agree that he missed the boat on that one. This forum is possibly the most intolerant place in the country... lol

Well I won't disagree with that.



You are correct. My group isn't made up of my alts. I don't think it's LL's job to admire or acknowledge and entrepreneur, if that entrepreneur is out to make a profit for himself. BUT there are people like elte, Michi, and Liam Roark, Chage McCoy? (I'm not sure who else is involved) that deserve some recognition for the work they have done in creating sims like Luskwood, which is essentially a huge playground full of public space for furries...and non furries, for everyone. From what eltee has said, any funds generated on the land are put back into maintaining it, buying up severely over priced tiny plots, etc. It's a hippie commune sort of idea until you hear of the enormous sums that one or 2 of them have had to shell out in order to make it what it is today.

Bashing Republican governors?

I guess I missed that.

And I guess you missed my point.

Nothing new.

And since when did minorities vote mostly Republican?

Me thinks somesone's full of shit here.

Yup, just ask Hillary.

Baggage.

That's cool though if one wants to perpetuate stereotypes and have a shallow view of the world.

I mean, when I think of the south, the first thing that comes to mind is slaves and plantations.

When I think of Germany, I automatically think of Nazis.

When I think of Spain, I see Conquistadors!

Naw. Not really. For that, I am glad. It's called living in the present and objective interpretation of past events.

So when does the campaign start to move LL to NY?

Mexican Americans voted overwhelmingly for President Bush, that is a fact Nolan.

And maybe it's since the Democratic party sold out middle class America in favor of special interests and fringe groups. That's a fact too. Just look at the voting chart for rural America as opposed to 50 years ago. It is a complete flip-flop from Democratic to Republican and why the Democratic party is now in serious trouble and in the minority.

I'll agree that the Democratic party is doing something wrong, however Bush did not win the election by a landslide. 51% to 48% is a win, not a mandate.

Many Democrates prefer to look upon the pre-Civil war map of slave vs. non-slave states, compare it to the current voting results and ruminate on that. It's quite entertaining and enlightening. haha However,that's a facile interpretation. The stats point more towards a rural versus urban comparision. The country is still fairly spilt along 50/50 lines with many of us agreeing on most issues. Gerrymandering of districts and other political tricks used by both sides are "gaming" the system creating what amounts to an artificial conflict where each side hopes to gain at our expense. Special interests rule the day on both sides and those with the most money have the most "speech".

I don't think most Democrats (and I hope most Republicans) would want to wind the world back to where it was 50 years ago. Issues change and I believe the problem is a bit more complex than you make it out. Do you not believe that the Republican party doesn't also sell out the middle class to special interest and fringe groups? I believe the middle class actually pay more taxes under the current Tax Reform. Most people aren't happy with either party. It so happens that the Republicans are doing a better job of spreading their propoganda (as opposed to the Democrates spreading theirs) and consolidating their power under the "new world order". Perceptions change though and the worm turns.

As far as the Mexican American vote, it is my hope that they're not voting in members who seek to create another style of goverment all to common under any system set up by the conquistadors in Latin America. Autocratic and authoritarian, where 4 percent of the country controls it, the peasantry has little hope of advancing and education does them little good, the intelligencia is suppressed and riduculed, rule is via fear, a single state endorsed religion where dissent is not tolerated. Those are generalizations and not all of them apply to Mexico. But that is the structure of those systems. Please prove me wrong. I really hope that's the case.

I will say that if you are part of that elite (or desire to be a part of or utlizied by them), subscribe to the State Religion's tenets and prefer Security (if you don't cross the governing powers) over individual rights, it's a great system to live in. You just have to keep an eye on the peasants and the intellectuals, have plenty of bodyguards, live in your house/fortresses and maintain a strong secret police.

A losers argument. He was elected twice in a row... nuf of a mandate for just about anyone that is impartial.


Then they would be standing for slavery… Abraham Lincoln was a republican in case you didn’t know.

No I don’t. Mainstream America is by large made up of conservative Christians. This is another mistake of the Dems… they are attacking Christianity and in the process alienating a large percentage or their own constituency as well as every politically moderate Christian. This is a HUGE mistake by the left. They should instead focus on their strong areas such as the environment, conservation, human rights, social issues and such. This obsession to somehow bring down Christianity just makes me smile.

It's attitudes like that which may bring on another Civil War. I kid you not. When people do not feel like their needs are represented they turn to other options. All we ask is for some sort of environment condusive to compromise.

Edit -- I would feel the same way if the shoe were on the other foot. And the Democrats were doing the same thing to Republicans. Large imbalances and extremes of power are not a good thing in the long run.

The ONLY reason that the Republicans have the power is because the VOTERS decided that's the way they wanted it. President Bush ran on a platform that got him elected. His resolve in living up to his word instead of flopping about as the wind blows like so many politicians is to be respected. Whoever said that the minority should have the power is simply crying because they aren't the ones with the power anymore.

The Dems DID do the same thing btw for most of this century when they had the power and now that they have lost it somehow think that the Republicans are the ones to move compromise instead of them.

If anything the Republicans ARE compromising while the Dems are not. All of the fuss now days is about the so called "moderate republicans" who are going against the party lines. Well... how many Democrats went against THEIR party lines and sided with the Republicans? Where is the compromise on their side? I just don't see it. Maybe you can give me some examples of what you claim.

And I don’t believe that. I am paying less in taxes… how about you last year vs 1989?

I loves ya, Billy, but ain't buyin' it. Way too close -- on both accounts -- to call it a mandate. More like a razor-thin majority.

Billy - From past debates, you know my stand on these issues. WRT this last point, bud, I think you're missing the point and overstating the case. The original question was, "Do you not believe that the Republican party doesn't also sell out the middle class to special interest and fringe groups?" How does your response, touting some imagined conspiracy to "bring down" Christianity, even come close to addressing the topic at hand?

And regarding the perception that the liberal wing is anti-Christian, I think that a lot of rational folks understand that religion and politics are a volatile mix. All religious influence, IMO, should be propagated primarily through social -- not political -- channels. I think what many people object to is the conservative wing's apparent attempt to force-feed a particular moral worldview upon the masses.

The argument stands my lil perky friend. I am of the view that by and large Christians make up the middle class and thus why I took it there.


You have hit my point about this directly on the head which is how much of a mistake the Democratic party leadership is making when bringing down Christianity is their focal point. Personally, I hope they keep it up. The only result is to further weaken the Democratic party and put another Republican in office which is exactly what I want.

Still luv ya lil buddie!

Billy, I'm tired of this conversation. It was rather fun though. Although, these things don't really amount to a debate as much as lectures which is sort of useless. I know I'm a guilty of that.

Thanks for responding and good luck with your system! I don't really view myself as a part of it anymore.

Regardless of whether you think the opposite sides feelings are justified, do you understand that they think there is a serious problem? And that, in itself, is a problem? Do you think they'll just quietly go away? Ignoring the hungry lion in your living room doesn't make him less hungry. You can say he shouldn't be hungry but it still doesn't make it less so. The lion used to be your friend and can still be good one. If he doesn't get fed he may eat you. You have the big gun right now but you better be careful. If you shoot
him, you'll lose something important (even though you may not view it that way now). Hopefully you'll have enough ammo afterward to shoot all the other lions (and their masters) prowling around your house. You have to sleep sometimes though...

btw, the current Republican party is almost as much the party of Lincoln as the US is the colony of King George of England. I believe things have moved on a bit since then. I support the Republican party on many issues too and just don't agree wholesale with everything they say. And no, of course Republicans don't still support slavery. Did you honestly believe I or anyone else thinks that? I said that was a facile comparison. I brought it up because i felt it was just as much of a superficial analysis as your map example.

Ack, there I am writing a long winded treatise which amounts to nothing...lol. Enough of that.

well, back to RL where i need to do what i can for the people i love.

HAHA… then why have you insisted on responding. Did you really think I wasn’t going to do the same???


This we can agree to disagree. I didn’t take anything that you said as you lecturing me. I suppose it is harder for that to come across in written form.

Sour grapes because your guys lost and do not have the power anymore.


Created by the liberal press and the leaders of the Democratic party… yes, I agree that is a problem indeed.


Please tell me when that was that the Democratic party was our buddy? NEVER. And nobody’s shooting anyone… rofl… Again it is a Democratic and liberal media fantasy… one that many people seem to believe, you as an example.

Besides that, your example is fuzzy with little evidence to support whatever it is that you are saying here.


You brought it up, not me.

Agreed… hehe


Don’t we all. For someone “tired of conversing” you have a lot to say… lol

Feh!!! EAST SIDE!!! *flashes gang sign*

Fact eh?

"These 20 states account for 91 percent of the nation’s Hispanic population. Respondents, including 3,586 Hispanics, completed 35,891 short-form surveys. Within this 20-state set, George W. Bush won the votes of 41.28 percent of Hispanic respondents polled, compared to 57.47 for John Kerry. But the NEP sampled battleground states more heavily than non-battleground states. Rebalancing the Hispanic totals for Bush and Kerry state-by-state to reflect the Hispanic population in each relative to the total Hispanic population for the 20-state set, Bush won 38.07 percent of the Hispanic vote, compared to 59.67 for Kerry."

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/nadler200412080811.asp

You know Billy, you're not going to convince me of this "overwhelmingly for President Bush" "fact".

There are many other articles online to back this one up.

I have lived in predominantly Hispanic areas a good portion of my life, and have many, many Hispanic friends. I have my ear to the ground so to speak, on their feelings about politics. While Bush picked up a few points in 2004 over those he got in 2000, the majority of Hispanics still voted Democrat.

So next time you decide to lecture me with fact, do your homework.

West Side!

But seriously i think california tends to be psued to the fore front of the progressive curve because we have so much diversity, and we have some very substantial minority groups (and not just ethnic), so almost everything in california is some sort of cutting edge compromise.

I certainly thing to stereotype California as a san francisco hippe state is a dangerous stereotpye, because ven within California its hard to get the northerners and southerners to admit each other are real californians. lol

Now I live in palm springs, which is in riverside county, and well I promise we clould give any county in the most coversavtive state some lessons in conservatism. Plam Springs strike a balance between having a very large, and very active gay community, with haveing a very large and very conservative retirement community. Yey we have conservative gays, liberal retirees, an very predominant hispanic culture (oh and for some odd reason boatloadds of canadians every winter!) and the local indian tribes all contributing to the local politics and culture. California's utter lack of homogeny (except on the car tax-the one issue that united our state) means that it is a culture that deals with diversity. But we are not all hippie utopianists here, we are a bucnh of people trying to live well and make the world a bit better for our kids.

Hispanic voters voted majority republican, and Hispanics are the largest minority in the US. Hopefully these means the Congessional Black Caucus will go away forever, but I doubt we will be that lucky.


Black vote overwhelming Democratic 90%, but they have recieved nothing for their votes, and Black have no power in the Democratic party. The Democratic Party has proven in the past when its time to fire people, they fire the black people first. Same Jim Crow, KKK, racist bullshit, different tactics.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32922


Also there are a lot of older Black Americans that vote Republican. My grandfather always voted Republican and when I was growing up he told me about how Democrats tried to prevent him from voting, which helped shape my politcal views. I don't feel the party has changed at all they have adjusted their politics to be more acceptable, but they are pulling the same tricks. The Republican party seems to be all about $$$$$ which is something I can always stand behind.

Even the Republicans claim it was 44% pro-Republican, which is disputed. That's not a majority.