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Lend me a hand

Csven Concord
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Join date: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,015
08-10-2005 18:49
From: Cocoanut Koala
This doesn't seem quite right. There are all kinds of toy cars with that shape, all over the place.


And if you had read the link in a post in the Shiryu thread, you'd be aware that toy companies are now being sued - and losing - for doing this without license. The most recent one I read (in that thread) concerned the shape of the Hummer.
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
08-10-2005 18:49
From: Cocoanut Koala

P.S. I wouldn't call it being a vigilante. Vigilantes take the law into their own hands. I think it would more accurately be called being a snitch.


Or the more politically correct term of "whistleblower".
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Ardith Mifflin
Mecha Fiend
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,416
08-10-2005 18:52
From: Csven Concord
And if you had read the link in a post in the Shiryu thread, you'd be aware that toy companies are now being sued - and losing - for doing this without license. The most recent one I read (in that thread) concerned the shape of the Hummer.


Toy-makers are reproducing a gluttonous cube of high-density ferro-shit?
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
08-10-2005 18:53
From: Ardith Mifflin
Toy-makers are reproducing a gluttonous cube of high-density ferro-shit?


Yes, haven't you seen the N'Sync dolls?
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Cristiano


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Frans Charming
You only need one Frans
Join date: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,847
08-10-2005 19:12
From: Mistress Midnight
Jarod, this isn't your battle, it is NOT your place to report other people for this violation, it's theirs. Budweiser has the right to search the whole of SL for their logo and have it removed.. you doing it just makes you whiny. "but Mommm, if I can't infringe on copyright Bobby can't either!!!"


I want to point out that Robin Linden ask us to just do that.

From: Robin Linden
The procedures we have in place are to respond to people who are using trademarks or copyrighted material belonging to other people, and are designed to protect the trademark and copyright holder from unfair practices. If you see something that you think is a trademark violation, please file an abuse report or let an in-world liaison know.


/invalid_link.html
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
08-10-2005 19:20
From: Cocoanut Koala
I think it would more accurately be called being a snitch.



LOL

It is funny how depending on who writes history, people are snitches or heros.


Linda Tripp- Snitch or American Patriot?
Sherron Watkins- Whistle-blower or Backstabbing Enron Employee?


Being a Whistleblower is a dangerous act. The Federal government provides protection for federal employees who blow the whistle on crimes and injustices.

I will provide this link to the National Whistleblower center so that everyone can education themselves on whistleblowing, including its perils and merits. I hope that by reviewing this site as a community we can all gain a greater understanding and knowledge of whistleblowers and the sacrifices they make for the greater good.


http://www.whistleblowers.org/
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Mistress Midnight
pfft!!
Join date: 13 May 2003
Posts: 346
08-10-2005 19:38
From: Frans Charming
I want to point out that Robin Linden ask us to just do that.


I meant more in terms of things like clothing or vehicles, for example, It's not up to some random user to decide someone has copied a design, this stuff happens real world all the time, and it's not up to you to decide that a knock-off is similar enough to be an offense.
Instead of wasting the time of LL with abuse reports, try asking the person to either take it down, or let them explain how/why it's different?
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Frans Charming
You only need one Frans
Join date: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,847
08-10-2005 19:41
From: Mistress Midnight
I meant more in terms of things like clothing or vehicles, for example, It's not up to some random user to decide someone has copied a design, this stuff happens real world all the time, and it's not up to you to decide that a knock-off is similar enough to be an offense.
Instead of wasting the time of LL with abuse reports, try asking the person to either take it down, or let them explain how/why it's different?

We(Jarod) aren't talking about copyright violations but trademark violations.
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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
08-10-2005 21:09
(berry/buck/mills/stipe)


Shiny happy people laughing
Meet me in the crowd
People, people
Throw your love around
Love me, love me
Take it into town
Happy, happy
Put it in the ground
Where the flowers grow
Gold and silver shine

(chorus)
Shiny happy people holding hands
Shiny happy people holding hands
Shiny happy people laughing

Everyone around, love them, love them
Put it in your hands
Take it, take it
There’s no time to cry
Happy, happy
Put it in your heart
Where tomorrow shines
Gold and silver shine

(repeat chorus)

Hey, here we go!

(repeat chorus 4x)
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Hiro Pendragon
------------------
http://www.involve3d.com - Involve - Metaverse / Emerging Media Studio

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Euterpe Roo
The millionth monkey
Join date: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,395
08-10-2005 21:22
From: Hiro Pendragon
(berry/buck/mills/stipe)


Shiny happy people laughing
Meet me in the crowd
People, people
Throw your love around
Love me, love me
Take it into town
Happy, happy
Put it in the ground
Where the flowers grow
Gold and silver shine

(chorus)
Shiny happy people holding hands
Shiny happy people holding hands
Shiny happy people laughing

Everyone around, love them, love them
Put it in your hands
Take it, take it
There’s no time to cry
Happy, happy
Put it in your heart
Where tomorrow shines
Gold and silver shine

(repeat chorus)

Hey, here we go!

(repeat chorus 4x)


You forgot Kate Pierson! :D
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"Of course, you'd also have to mention . . . furries, Sith Lords, cyberpunks, glowing balls of gaseous neon fumes, and walking foodstuffs" --Cory Edo

“One man developed a romantic attachment to a tractor, even giving it a name and writing poetry in its honor." MSN

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Euterpe Roo
The millionth monkey
Join date: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,395
08-10-2005 21:31
From: Csven Concord
Please be aware that Nike's record is not frozen in time. You might wish to verify Nike's current overseas activities before insinuating that they are doing something immoral or unethical.


OK. From Nike's 2005 Quaterly Report:

"Over the last decade, I’ve seen a number of chapters written on the quest to improve working conditions in the apparel and footwear industry. In the first chapter, we upgraded processes and conditions behind closed doors. However inadequate our critics may have found these efforts, they did result in factories that were far better than what we found originally." (emphasis mine)

Hey, I might just be spewing bile, but I don't find this all that reassuring.

(Then again, to many, I am a left-leaning wing-nut) :D
_____________________
"Of course, you'd also have to mention . . . furries, Sith Lords, cyberpunks, glowing balls of gaseous neon fumes, and walking foodstuffs" --Cory Edo

“One man developed a romantic attachment to a tractor, even giving it a name and writing poetry in its honor." MSN

";(next week: the .5m torus of "I ate a yummy sandwich and I'm sleepy now";)" Desmond Shang
Tren Neva
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 619
08-10-2005 22:06
I know this has been said to countless people, just for the sake of saying it. Being as such, it probably has lost its meaning, I sincerely want to know at what point in your life does it seem like a crusade to go around a video game and report people for using graphics of graphics in a virtural world. I can't understand it myself, and trying to think about it for over 30 seconds causes blood clots.

I feel like I'm sinking really low when I have to say this, but don't. Just stop. You aren't helping anyone by doing this, and just feeding your own ego with the thought you are doing the world a favor by your own sense of what justice is. That just brings me back to my first question about whats happening in your life to be able to do this with a smile and a sense of pride. Untill companies start making a fuss and are handing out cease and desist, you will be doing us all a favor if you just sit back and enjoy SL.

I'm not trying to flame or yell at you. Sorry if I come off as angry, but recent actions of people in SL have caused me serious physical pain knowing that they can get away with what they're doing without a major bop on the head.
katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
08-10-2005 23:22
From: Eboni Khan
Wow, so every time you see a crime being committed you turn the other way? Are you one of those people that "doesn't want to be involved" so you never call the police when a crime is being committed? Wow, you are a model citizen; do you speak at schools to the kiddies?
Ummm....trademark infringement and copyright violation are civil matters, not criminal. You're not seriously equating use of a Ford logo on a poster or t-shirt in SL with the grave incidence of burglary, arson, rape, hey...what about child molestation.....

FYI I am a former prosecutor, and a current officer of the court in 4 states and the federal bar. Do I look the other way? No, I just have logical perspective on proper use of legal resources and matters.

You asked am I a model citizen...yes. I would match my contribution to society and the legal system against yours anyday...ANY DAY. Bring it on girl.
Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
08-10-2005 23:45
From: katykiwi Moonflower
Ummm....trademark infringement and copyright violation are civil matters, not criminal.

Incorrect, as per a previous post's listing of criminal penalties.
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Hiro Pendragon
------------------
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
08-11-2005 01:42
From: katykiwi Moonflower
You asked am I a model citizen...yes. I would match my contribution to society and the legal system against yours anyday...ANY DAY. Bring it on girl.



Actually you are stretching it a bit. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Just because people see stealing from corporations as victimless crimes, they really aren't.


Also, tossing out whatever credentials you may or may not have are not really all that impressive. This is a message board on the internet; I have no way of verifying your career. Additionally just because you have held a lot of positions and have a legal degree still does not make you an expert, you could have attend some 3rd rate university and work in traffic court. I'm not impressed.

The law is very compartmentalized. You typically don’t ask a lawyer who practices IP Law about Tax Law, you would ask your Tax Lawyer about a Murder Trial, etc etc. Being on the criminal side of the law as you claim, wouldn’t necessarily qualify you to speak at length with great knowledge on matter of copyright and trademark infringement. Most good lawyers make a point to avoid speaking on matters outside of their area of expertise.


I don't have a penis and I am not interested in a pissing contest, with an online persona. Contributions to society are completely subjective and can't really be counted until long after you are dead and gone. I'm still alive and kicking for probably at least another 50 years. We can revisit this topic is 2060. Some people can find being called girl demeaning, especially black women, so call me by my name. Thanks!


If you are indeed an officer of the court, your comments previously are a piss poor example of a lawyer, your ethics seem murky and your knowledge of the law a little lacking.


A simple review of the laws of the United States show that copyright infringement can be a criminal offense.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#506

From: someone
§ 506. Criminal offenses5
(a) Criminal Infringement. - Any person who infringes a copyright willfully either -

(1) for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain, or

(2) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000,

shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, United States Code. For purposes of this subsection, evidence of reproduction or distribution of a copyrighted work, by itself, shall not be sufficient to establish willful infringement.

(b) Forfeiture and Destruction. - When any person is convicted of any violation of subsection (a), the court in its judgment of conviction shall, in addition to the penalty therein prescribed, order the forfeiture and destruction or other disposition of all infringing copies or phonorecords and all implements, devices, or equipment used in the manufacture of such infringing copies or phonorecords.

(c) Fraudulent Copyright Notice. - Any person who, with fraudulent intent, places on any article a notice of copyright or words of the same purport that such person knows to be false, or who, with fraudulent intent, publicly distributes or imports for public distribution any article bearing such notice or words that such person knows to be false, shall be fined not more than $2,500.

(d) Fraudulent Removal of Copyright Notice. - Any person who, with fraudulent intent, removes or alters any notice of copyright appearing on a copy of a copyrighted work shall be fined not more than $2,500.

(e) False Representation. - Any person who knowingly makes a false representation of a material fact in the application for copyright registration provided for by section 409, or in any written statement filed in connection with the application, shall be fined not more than $2,500.

(f) Rights of Attribution and Integrity. - Nothing in this section applies to infringement of the rights conferred by section 106A(a).



Trademark infringements are civil matters. The majority of issues involving SL and Car makers are trademark related not copyright related. The fact still reamins that even though criminal charges may not be filed, possible legal fees, bad press and legal actions can be devestating to SL and future growth here. We don't want someone receiving C&D letters or some corportation deciding to set an example and take the hard line in SL. Self control and policing should be quite simple. If you don't have legal permission to use a logo, don't use it. It is not rocket science, a kindergardener could understand the concept, you dont't you what doesn't belong to you without permission.


Further clarification on Trademark Law...


http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/metaschool/fisher/domain/tm.htm
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
08-11-2005 02:13
My life. It's fortunate that these forums are wholly disproportionate and non representative of SL's population. Imagine if the whole SL world really was filled with 40,000 petty assholes?
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Canimal Zephyr
Mentally Ill
Join date: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 705
08-11-2005 02:21
From: Jarod Godel
Inspired by the crackdown on automotive trademarks, I have begun flying around the world and Abuse Reporting people who are specifically selling Trademarked items -- avatars, clothing, furniture, etc. I've reported three today already, and it gives me a rather good feeling to know that I'm helping to pretect our Second Life popultion against lawsuits.

If you want to confirm the status of a Trademark, I suggest using www.ustpo.gov.

I'll check back later this week to see the status of what I've reported, but obviously I can't check every store in every sim. Help me help Second Life!



Oh i'm sure the CEO's of nike & coca cola will be rushing over to shake your hand any day now..

(I just wanna say that even if you do make an exact duplicate of a car/shoe/whatever i'm not realy seeing how it's the same thing since mazda aren't going to sell second life cars.. & if anything your helping to promote their brand. SO that's just petty & stupid. )

But let's say they do mind, cos I won't put being narrow-minded past 40 yr executives & their lawyers, maybe you should also contact the ISPs of the people who make these copyright violations for allowing them to go online & create them.

That way, you can help LL *AND* countless ISPs around the world from being sued, by flooding them with petty complaints!
Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
08-11-2005 05:36
From: Canimal Zephyr

(I just wanna say that even if you do make an exact duplicate of a car/shoe/whatever i'm not realy seeing how it's the same thing since mazda aren't going to sell second life cars.. & if anything your helping to promote their brand. SO that's just petty & stupid. )



What happens if Mazda does decide they want to sell cars in SL? Levi and Nike sold items in There. It is not a stretch to think that one day soon Real World Corporations will come knocking on SL doors. It is for the trademark owner to decide how their brand is promoted. If they don't guard their brand and protect it, it will lose value.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
08-11-2005 06:08
If Nike hear of SL and the lucrative market of virtual commodities, they may decide to investigate the possibility of building a presence inworld. What will happen when they create some avs and start wandering around only to find that others are already selling Nike shoes for real life profit?

Seriously, if this were just a game with no connection to the real world, trademark violation would still be breaking the law, but not such an intense issue. But it's not a game, it's a budding Internet service that is attracting a widen circle of attention daily as people make tens-of-thousands of dollars a year selling virtual goods.

It's literally only a matter of time before somebody realizes that joe av is making a tidy supplimentary income using their trademark without permission in a medium that the company may one day want to use to market their products.

When that happens, they'll likely file suit against all the perps, make no mistake, trademark violation is against US law, all the perps including LL. This is one area that LL have no choice and no legal argument. If they comply, they are as guilty of breaking the law as the theives that profited by using the registered mark sans permission.

Speed laws are worthless, but I risk tickets breaking them. Income tax laws are wholly unfair when I have to pay sales taxes on the same money, but I'll go to jail for breaking them. Trademarks may be considered tightassed and unfair and silly by most SL residents, but the laws are very clear and very strict. LL will loose a related court battle and we'll all pay the price.
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
08-11-2005 08:13
From: Nolan Nash
I just ARed your post, and sent an email to Muppets Holding Company©, LLC.

Your blatant theft of their copyrighted lyrics won't fly in these parts my friend!

It's gotta start somewhere!

;)


I was wondering when someone was going to get it... one of the sets of lyrics I quotes was public domain, the other copyrighted. :-)
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Beau Perkins
Second Life Resident.
Join date: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,061
08-11-2005 08:19
I laugh so hard at these threads how everyone post as if they are an expert on the subject.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
08-11-2005 08:49
From: Beau Perkins
I laugh so hard at these threads how everyone post as if they are an expert on the subject.

Absolutely! This forum is no place for us to be voicing opinions as though we have brains in our heads. It's certainly not here for us to be telling LL that we're concerned about the future of SL and have some ideas to share with them. It must only exist for me to laugh at people who I determine through my omniscence have no knowledge of a subject.

Please list for me those things about which you possess expert knowledge so I know to ignore any post you make not specifically about those subjects.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
08-11-2005 08:58
From: Enabran Templar
I'm always pretty startled that someone who comports herself as an intelligent person still doesn't understand that Second Life isn't a game. Second Life is a platform, like the World Wide Web, IRC or Instant Messenger to create and distribute content and information, as well as to interact with others. I've had five minute conversations with people who had never heard of Second Life and who, without my prompting, immediately corrected themselves when they called it a game, since, obviously, Second Life is not a game.

(Kindly print out the above paragraph and tape it to your monitor so you can read it next time you feel compelled to make a post about "the game.";)

As for money being the root of evil in Second Life, I think that the individuals who hate money most deserve it the least (in RL and SL). Evil, Cocoanut, because it eludes your capacity to attain it? Evil because it cannot be demanded and must be earned? Evil because to hold money, one must use one's brain for an extended period of trial and error, before money can be reliably earned from a given practice?

How, without money, would you propose that I exchange my ability to make a profit with the ability of a brilliant scripter to make a complex system? How, without money, would you suggest that I create content that offers on-going updates and improvements to its owners? How, without money, would a college student have spent weeks making a fun gadget that gives hundreds of customers hours of enjoyment while granting the student a better diet and additional gasoline each week?

The Linden Dollar, and its USD value, is the ultimate testament to the ability for civilized people to come together and exchange the value of their work and their mind power. Backed up only by the confidence of one resident that another will find value in his L$, the currency is exchanged by thousands of people daily to create a wealth of ideas, content, entertainment and money from which the entire community benefits. Businesses exist in Second Life that would have been impossible ten years ago. Entrepreneurs have testbeds that would have been unfeasible to create five years ago. A lot of hard working people can use their talents in unprecedented ways to feed themselves, their families, their futures.

This is a game? This is evil?

Whenever value is to be gained, there will be hijackers and parasites, who substitute the creative effort of others for their own. This fact has existed since the dawn of civilization and isn't likely to end soon. These parasites are duly ostracized and punished by their community for trying to take a short cut to wealth they do not deserve and could not otherwise earn. That's what's happened here. Want to sell a product that is truly yours and cannot be taken away from you? Make it yourself. All of it. And rely not on the groundwork laid by others, but on your own ability to create the most compelling product around.

Can't do it? Then get out of business.

OK, let's see, where was I. I was going to get back to Enabran.

It's not a matter of my not "understanding" that SL is "not a game." It's more a matter of my hating pretension. When the Lindens stop advertising SL as a game, and pull it from all the listings in the gaming sites, etc., then I may stop calling it a game. (Or I may not.)

Until then, I prefer to say to my husband, "I'm going to go get on the game now," rather than say, "I'm going to go get on the platform now." I'd rather say to a friend, "I'll see you on the game tomorrow," than, "I'll see you on the platform tomorrow."

(Kindly print out the above paragraphs and tape them to your monitor so you can read them the next time you feel compelled to correct my terminology.)

As for money being the root of all evil in SL, I don't hate money. I just think having rl money at stake makes people more cut-throat than they might be in a game where it isn't at stake, or at least not so obviously, and where there are other means of achieving things besides either (a) buying game money or (b) selling items. Takes away some of the fun.

"How, without money . . . ?" I daresay if rl money had nothing to do with SL, there would still be pretty much all the same stuff we see now. People would make things for the pleasure of making things, as well as for the fame, the kudos, and game money attained by doing so. In fact - correct me if I'm wrong - I thought SL was without the direct rl money connection for a long time. Wasn't that something that was added somewhere along the line?

I agree it's neat to be able to make rl money. The downside is that it makes people more cut-throat. (It's not necessary for you to speculate on my personal ability to attain it.)

This Betty Boop business takes away some of the fun, too. But then, that's the law, and that's how it is for everyone, everywhere. Better for all of us to bite the bitter bullet now than later.

coco
Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
08-11-2005 09:26
You know, I'm seriously confused about what constitutes copyright infringement of RL items in SL. I guess this is because I view SL more like a 3D art medium.

My point is that if I were to paint a picture of a girl in a Volkswagon Beetle and then sell that picture, could Volkswagon sue me for copyright infringement?

(I'm not being a smart ass here, I really don't know much about where the fine line is actually drawn).

If this is the case, how do the RL tattoo places get away with Betty Boop, Yogi Bear, Bugs Bunny, etc. tattoo's?

When someone creates a 3D picture of the Starship Enterprise in SL is that an infringment? Afterall, they did not just steal a picture from the internet and re-post it with the intention of selling it for coupons that can be cashed out as US dollars.

They created the ship using prims - essentially creating an original 3D picture. Is it the logo? If they freehand draw the logo, what is the difference?

Is painting a picture of something that is copyrighted only an infringement when you charge money for it?

Is Andy Warhol's picture of Campbells soup a copyright infringement? Or his picture of Superman? Or his picture of Marlyin Monroe? How about his picture of Mickey Mouse?

I'm not avocating theft of anyone's art or copyright but I am curious as to where the line is actually drawn.
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Csven Concord
*
Join date: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,015
08-11-2005 09:29
From: Euterpe Roo
OK. From Nike's 2005 Quaterly Report:
"Over the last decade, I’ve seen a number of chapters written on the quest to improve working conditions in the apparel and footwear industry. In the first chapter, we upgraded processes and conditions behind closed doors. However inadequate our critics may have found these efforts, they did result in factories that were far better than what we found originally." (emphasis mine)

Hey, I might just be spewing bile, but I don't find this all that reassuring.

{underlines added}

Actually, that supports what I've read and heard wrt Nike's efforts and is actually somewhat reassuring to me. But I read it to mean that the critics of the early chapters have helped Nike to improve upon those early efforts and that the results are either a) far better than what Nike found upon arrival or b) far better than the original Nike efforts which were criticized. I attempted to find the 2005 Quarterly report you cite, but was unsuccessful; and a quick look at the 2004 Annual and the Nike site didn't yield anything. Feel free to provide a link as I'd be interested in reading this to better understand the context.

I took an interest in 3rd world manufacturing condition several years ago, having spent time overseas in just those kinds of factories. Having done some previous research including finding this very informative article , I learned that like most things, the issue isn't always clear cut (e.g. by creating "good" paying jobs in a 3rd world nation, it's possible to have a common silkscreener be monetarily rewarded to a greater degree than a well-educated doctor, thus causing a social imbalance). I wish it were easy and I certainly wish it were fair, but until I fully understand an issue I'm careful to watch what I say.

Consequently, my comment was only suggesting that you do a bit of fact-finding before you make such comments. While your allegation might have been true 10 or even 5 years ago, it may not be true today. And if you don't have time to research these things, then at least qualify the comment with an appropriate caveat.

As this is off-topic and actually irrelevant to the issue, if you'd like to comment on this issue, please start another thread. I'm always interested in discussing the topic.
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