Lend me a hand

Actually I am with the neighbor. Your fence being out of code can cost someone their life, by blocking views that people need for safe driving to see around corners etc, they aren't all entirely pointless. It really isn’t his fault the city decided to enforce code on everyone else. He was probably trying to prove his point that hey, I'm not the only person on the block doing this, let me have my fence! The city realized the error and made adjustments in the whole area. Codes exist for a reason, just because people break the law for whatever time period and don't get caught doesn't mean they are justified in being outraged when the law finally catches up with them.

But Schwanson, this is coming. There was nobody in that city or anywhere to care about everybody's already-up fence line.

What's going to presumably happen here is different. Here it's just a matter of time till it becomes a big stink. Along the lines of COH, except LOTS worse, since rl money is being made.

I hate it, I really do. I don't like these laws. But I like less one person turning in another, that person having to cease and desist, and everybody saying, "Ok, now, shhhh! and hopefully it won't happen to anyone else."

I mean, do you want a level playing field, and even competition, or not? If so, it doesn't make sense to call someone a thief and yet decry reporting others who do the same thing.

coco

I already tried but the Lindens were like "we love Liona, so go eff yourself" and I was like wtf and then somebody AR'd me for saying wtf in a pg area and I was like I am going to AR you because you look like a GOBOT(tm) and then they were like I am going to AR you because you look like an idiot and then blue linden was like lol and I was like wtf are you laughing at blue linden and he was like omg pandastrong you are banned and trip negged loll hahaha and then Liona was like an angel and stuff and beat everyone up

I am not arguing the fact that codes exist for a reason. I agree.

The point was more that the neighbor did not care at all about views or safety. He intentionally ratted everyone else out because he couldn't get away with it. That's how he tells the story.

Personally I see something wrong with that attitude. If it was a matter of concern for safety, his motivations would have been honorable. This was blatantly a case of a tattle tale.

I'm always pretty startled that someone who comports herself as an intelligent person still doesn't understand that Second Life isn't a game. Second Life is a platform, like the World Wide Web, IRC or Instant Messenger to create and distribute content and information, as well as to interact with others. I've had five minute conversations with people who had never heard of Second Life and who, without my prompting, immediately corrected themselves when they called it a game, since, obviously, Second Life is not a game.

(Kindly print out the above paragraph and tape it to your monitor so you can read it next time you feel compelled to make a post about "the game."

As for money being the root of evil in Second Life, I think that the individuals who hate money most deserve it the least (in RL and SL). Evil, Cocoanut, because it eludes your capacity to attain it? Evil because it cannot be demanded and must be earned? Evil because to hold money, one must use one's brain for an extended period of trial and error, before money can be reliably earned from a given practice?

How, without money, would you propose that I exchange my ability to make a profit with the ability of a brilliant scripter to make a complex system? How, without money, would you suggest that I create content that offers on-going updates and improvements to its owners? How, without money, would a college student have spent weeks making a fun gadget that gives hundreds of customers hours of enjoyment while granting the student a better diet and additional gasoline each week?

The Linden Dollar, and its USD value, is the ultimate testament to the ability for civilized people to come together and exchange the value of their work and their mind power. Backed up only by the confidence of one resident that another will find value in his L$, the currency is exchanged by thousands of people daily to create a wealth of ideas, content, entertainment and money from which the entire community benefits. Businesses exist in Second Life that would have been impossible ten years ago. Entrepreneurs have testbeds that would have been unfeasible to create five years ago. A lot of hard working people can use their talents in unprecedented ways to feed themselves, their families, their futures.

This is a game? This is evil?

Whenever value is to be gained, there will be hijackers and parasites, who substitute the creative effort of others for their own. This fact has existed since the dawn of civilization and isn't likely to end soon. These parasites are duly ostracized and punished by their community for trying to take a short cut to wealth they do not deserve and could not otherwise earn. That's what's happened here. Want to sell a product that is truly yours and cannot be taken away from you? Make it yourself. All of it. And rely not on the groundwork laid by others, but on your own ability to create the most compelling product around.

Can't do it? Then get out of business.

History. Check some of the other threads he's started over time.

I don't think anyone replying about Jarod's motivations here are saying that trademark and copyright law shouldn't be enforced. They should be. However, I believe the correct course of action isn't an abuse report; its to contact the company which owns the trademark. This is how it is done on the World Wide Web, and in the real world. My question is why should it be any different in Second Life?

If I see someone making knock-off Mickey Mouse shirts, I contact Disney. If I see someone create a web site using Mickey Mouse in a compromising position with Donald Duck, I contact Disney.

Many people are using the Abuse Report tool as a griefing weapon - I sincerely doubt their newfound passion for trademark enforcement extends beyond SL, where they can create a ruckus.

For the record, I've told the Lindens about "wwwsecondlife.com" (no dot) being registered by IGE, and diverting to the IGE web site, and that I believe this is a case of clear trademark infringement. I didn't report IGE Wheeling for abuse; I notified the company owning the trademark about the infringement, and left it in that company's capable hands (Linden Lab being that company is immaterial). Did anyone else report this infringement?

Regards,

-Flip

You've brought this up at least twice. Are you aware that case was never tried, since the judge threw it out labeling it as "false and a sham"?

I guess the motivation is what rubs me wrong. If it were a legitimate concern for the trademarks/copyrights then I guess I would have to concede. If it were a case of reporting my competition because now they have an unfair advantage because only my products were targeted, I guess I would get that as well.

This just seems like a case of sour grapes to me.

You can have my Cookie Monster slippers when you pry them off my cold pixellated feet!


Pretty much. NC Soft put very clear rules into their TOS on emulating trademarked heroes, and their CS staff spent a lot of time policing violations in game. It was not unusual to see players with "GenericHero10298" names after a Cryptic GM had finished with them.

I haven't looked up the latest developments, but as I recall most of the Marvel lawsuit was dismissed by the judge. Simply giving players tools that are capable of copying trademarks is not sufficient to warrant legal action. Enforcing a TOS helps avoid charges of negligence.

LL has done *some* enforcement, but I still see a huge amount of content out there that is obviously, blatantly ripped off. So much of it, in fact, that I don't even bother to report it. Frankly, the ability to design completely original content in SL put this issue on a whole new level from the relatively limited tools in COH. I mean, I was at a costume party with Mr. Hanky one night. You won't be doing *that* in COH

It's people like pandastrong that keep me enjoying the absurdity that is Second Life.

Items that use a registered trademark don't have to disappear. The providers only have to apply for permission to use the trademarks. Any given company might grant free use within SL if the request letter points out that the item will offer them free advertisment and is only being sold for play money.

If the company wants a royalty or licensing fee, that's pretty straightforward as well. All a person needs is proof of permission. I suppose LL are concerned that they will end up being fined if they don't pursue known instances of inworld copyright violations when there is, technically, real money to be made. They're right to be concerned. Lindens are far too involved in fostering The Community to successfully argue that they're only hosting a service.

Now we have people dogging Cereal over his illegal use of tradmarks and people dogging Jarod over his practice of reporting illegal uses of tradmarks. You're just damned if you do or don't around here it seems.

NO, NO FLIP! NEVER! GOD FORBID WE HAVE HISTORICAL CONTEXT!


INT. COURTROOM - DAY (1990)

A polished, wood-paneled courtroom abuzz with CHATTER from the audience. The DEFENSE and PROSECUTION are seated at their respective tables. The JUDGE bangs his GAVEL.

JUDGE
I will have order in this court!

PROSECUTOR
Your honor, I object, the prosecution has yet to even begin its opening statement--

JUDGE
Prosecution is out of order! This court needs to hear no argument. The court dismisses this case with prejudice. Look at the defendant! He looks like such a nice guy. And check out that suit! He can't be guilty of anything. He's even polite to me.

The Judge's words are drowned out as the courtroom is consumed by SHOUTING.

FADE OUT

"My question is why should it be any different in Second Life?"

Because reporting it to the Lindens it is the first line of action. They tell you to do it. It is their policy to, if it comes to their attention, make people stop doing it. Simple. No need to subject the party reporting to the additional burden of having to report to the company, rather than the Lindens. It is the Lindens who can then determine if the individual has that company's permission or not. The burden of proof is on the individual, to the Lindens. Not on the individual reporting to determine if and/or prove that theft has occurred.

No, Jillian, I didn't know that's how that case turned out! I like that judgment. And it is especially good for the Lindens, as they would not be held liable for what players create. If anything, the individual pirating the trademarked item would be liable.

And Cindy, how much I agree! I just hate this idea that we can't have Betty Boop bluejeans (which I have) or Ford logos, for that matter. It might be okay, too, to just wear these things - that might be like wearing a drawing - or to give them away, but just not to sell them for profit. I'm not sure.

If so, that would be a reasonable compromise. We could have our adorable little virtual cans of Campbell's soup - as long as we don't sell them. Would this be the case? Does anyone know?

Enabran, I'll get to your post separately.

coco

If the only way I ever show my support for recycling is to look through my neighbor's garbage and report him if I find unsorted plastics... well I'm certainly in the RIGHT but am I *REALLY* a supporter of recycling?

If there are people here who are passionate about TM violations, I think they should organize, then prioritize violators in order by the amount of harm they do to the TM holders (I would love to see where SL content creators rank on that list). Then they should take action against the most harmful violators.

But if all you're going to do the send abuse reports to the Lindens and post about it in the forums... that's fine. Just don't do it under the guise of supportng TM holder's rights.

Yes, I agree for the most part with that. However, the difference I'm evoking, is that I don't want Disney or Time/Warner or MercedesBenz to come down on Second Life, or Linden Lab. Companies are in a dither these days about suing P2P companies for these kinds of things, with the Supreme Court saying that "intent" is all that draws the line between legitimate service and copyright infringeemnt inducer... I don't want to point the companies at Second Life.

So, yeah, read my old posts, please, but I dare you to find one that isn't me vehemently trying to push an idea that would strengthen Second Life as a useful technology. I think this post, this agenda, is the same thing. As an objective concerned citizen, yes, contacting the company is the best move. As someone who's biased in wanting Second Life to prosper as a technology, free from the hassles and redtape brought about by Trademark lawsuits, my actions differ.

What part of "I'm helping to pretect (sic) our Second Life popultion against lawsuits" did I not make clear? I have no love for Trademarks, or Copyrights, but I am concerned, very concerned about the Grokster vs. Brand-X outcome, and how "inducer" could apply to Linden Lab if they are ever found with people selling Disney stuff.

I would think another motivation might be doing it for the good of the game. Cause like I said, it's only a matter of time, and new users would be better off knowing not to go down this path in the first place.

coco

P.S. Basically I'm saying what I see Jarod just said above.

P.S. And I read Jillian's link, and yes, inducer comes into play, and yes, they have to have things saying that you can't do this and they have to enforce all of it that comes to their attention.

It seems that Jarod is actually trying to avert any involvment or support of the TM holder. If I understand his stated motive, it's to alert the Lindens to infringements that may bite them on the butt and end up costing LL. I should let Jarod reply himself, but I really do believe he's just trying to keep us from living in a Nike-owned world.

Jarod I suggest you become very well informed about trademark laws if you intend to do this. Some people have gone to great lengths to make sure their items look similar to a real world product but are deliberately slightly off to avoid problems. If you AR'ed everything you recognized for trademark issues, you might find that only a very small amount of them would be legally problematic. You run the risk of wasting a lot of people's time with this.

Trade dress is equally important in situations like these. Back when the iMac was brand new (many years ago) a few Taiwanese manufacturers made a bunch of cheap knockoffs using flimsy plastic and x86-based hardware. Apple let loose a legal fury that got those things off the market relatively quickly. The issue is that even if you're not using a trademarked name, aping the style and "dress" of a product that someone's marketing department spent a lot of time developing, specifically so that your product can profit on the noteworthiness of the aped product, is just as bad as explicit trademark infringement.

I would like to make a suggestion Jarod.

Maybe you could create a notecard, and in that notecard you could make a very strong and compelling case against trademark and tradedress infringement - explaining how it hurts this community, puts Linden Labs at legal risk, damages the trademark holders, and provides unfair advantage against those unwilling to steal a brand to promote their products.

Then, when you see such a violation, start by sending the notecard and a polite message to the infringer.

You see, many of the people that do this kind of thing do not fully realize the problems they cause. Some don't even know that what they are doing is illegal. Still others feel they are in some kind of ethical gray area between fair-use and "hey, it's just a t-shirt for a few friends." And then their are the worthless bastards that know exactly what they are doing and really don't care about protecting intellectual property rights.

Maybe, by approching this from an educate first standpoint, you can help fix the problem while enriching the community at the same time.

Having a background in both IT and brand management I have to tell you that one of the neatest things I have seen here in SL is some of the homegrown brands that have sprung up by creative people (thinking PREEN, WetIkon/Seburo, Avalon, PixelDolls, etc.). Maybe your notecard could include these examples as a better way to promote products?

I'd like to see more of this kind of brand creation within SL. I think we accomplish that by educating, encouraging and leading. Only when we have to should we abuse report our fellow pioneers.

But that is just my opinion. And I matter little.

Persephone Milk

Was the logo copied?

No.

edit: Just the "look and feel" of the computer. And, in fact, it was pretty effective. Fooled my mom until I explained it to her in the computer store.