***HOT*** Prim Abuse ***HOT***

The economic and social structure of Second Life is an ingenious system that encourages us residents to get along well with each other and to solve problems amongst ourselves, without the intervention of Linden Lab. Many of the problems that do arise are not a result of faulty programming or poor game design, contrary to frequent argument, but instead are caused by the players themselves.

Currently, the prim usage in Hawthorne is at 100%. I've been discussing solutions to this problem with other residents of the sim. I flew around looking for neglected builds, and IMed the owners asking them to come back and remove them so that active players could use the freed resources. I began scrutinizing my own creations to see where I could possibly trim up my prim count. Then, out of curiosity, I began taking a look at the creations of other Hawthorne residents.

I was appalled, but not entirely surprised, at what I found. Clutter doesn't begin to describe it. I own a big chunk of a building, but I'm also aware that the prim density of my complex pales in comparison to most of my neighbors' homes. But what I found went beyond that. Bookshelves with prim counts of 192 each! Multiple copies of the same vehicle parked out front. And random prims and objects strewn about like toys in the bedroom of a five-year-old.

Surely Briana Dawson and Taessa Weaver were ignorant of the attrocious number of prims that littered their property, so I began an instant message with the only one who was on, to make her aware.

"I'm pretty sure 600 prims is pretty bad on 3 bookshelves... and I do realise it," was the exact response Taessa gave me, before I even got around to mentioning the shelves.

"What on *earth* are you doing with all that? They're frickin' *bookshelves,*" I said. "You can't even read t he books in them!"

I knew something was up. I just didn't want to believe it.

"Strom and Art and Si attacked Bri about prim banks. Bri was trying to start a conversation on maybe setting an extra tax on people who bank like she is forced to. They jumped on her with both feet. So I deleted the prim banks. And I put up my bookshelves." Her exact words, copied right from the IM screen in front of me.

As soon as we found the bookshelves, Strom, despite my discouragement, posted a reply to one of the threads in the forum on prim abuse (here). I thought if I asked politely, Tae would certainly bring down the shelves. I pleaded with her for a solid hour, and the shelves still stand.

This sort of selfish behavior hurts more than the people it is apparently aimed at. Not a single resident of Hawthorne can build now because of the damage dealt by Tae and Bri. I am not out to publicly humiliate anyone. I hate dealing with people like this. Unfortunately, it's clear to me that Taessa isn't interested in doing what is only right and fair to the other people who pay *real* money to get what they can out of this game. Instead, she is ripping us off. Frankly, I'd like to have my money back. I wonder if Taessa would be willing to pay back what she has stolen from the residents of Hawthorne.

It's time for us to stop bothering the Lindens about upgrades and what they can do for us. Let us instead work on improving our own behavior so that we can make the most out of what we already have.

That yacht looks at least half done, anyone who checks out their property (Hawthorne, 70,246) can see that the boat's mostly done, and it's what, 112 prims?

They've got 800 prims worth of useless junk on their property, are they planning to scale the ship up by 400% and make it a professional model of the Titanic complete with historically accurate place settings, chandeliers, and interactive luggage?

This whole 'tirade' isn't about personal issues, it's about the fact I can't do my gaming on that meticulously constructed hex map next door, because some nights I can't even spawn dice, not to mention I can't rez the game pieces.

They can keep their 40-prim coffee table, their multiple(some identical to eachother) 25-30 prim vehicles, but their 'building supply' does not need 584 primitives worth of bookshelves..

Though it's rather too complicated to get into, I suspect they may also have reason to bear a grudge against several people who live very near to them. I would expect they'd have dropped it by now, but their stockpile(as of the time of this writing) IS immense to the point of abuse.

They don't have to LOSE any of their belongings, they could de-rez and rez as needed, and they could take their 194-primitive bookshelves to an empty sim where nobody would mind. Taessa's been asked to get rid of them, but obviously she finds no shame in it. What do you guys and gals think?

I demand that you take some of your hard work down so *I* can have the prims instead! Who's being selfish? C'mon people. This is getting absurd. Keep your noses out of your neighbors builds and just worry about your own stuff. If you want to take things down so others can build, that's great. If someone else doesn't want to, they're under no obligation to do so. How would you like it if someone came up to you and said they thought something you built was wasteful and asked you to take it down so they could have the prims for their own selfish desires (masquerading as a do-gooder of course). I hope you'd tell them to take a flying leap. It's okay to ask the question, but if they decline the matter should be closed. Flaming people in the forums because they have something wasteful according to your subjective tastes is about as unneighborly as you could possibly be. You should give Bri and Tae a public apology.

What do you hope to accomplish by telling the world that this player, who has done nothing wrong, owns a bookshelf made out of 600+ prims? Keep in mind that object banking was about avoiding taxes, which is no longer the case.

The greater offense here is the shameless invasion of privacy these prim witch hunters appear to overlook. Twice I've seen blatant disrespect for property boundaries and privacy; one person even posted a pic of somebody's basement!

I run a banisher on my property. I do so because I don't want anybody on it. That's my right. Do you know, people have sent me tells saying that, "gee, your two doors were locked. The message says you're not at home and are not accepting visitors. Your windows are boarded up. You have a banisher running on your property. How am I supposed to get in your house?"

YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO. If you think I'm doing something illegal, go to the police, not the public. But you'd better have very good reason, and if you're wrong, you better let it drop and not invade my privacy again, or I'll have something REAL to report you for.

This is a game design issue, not a player one. Stop trying to make senior or active players feel guilty for playing within the rules.

Wow, as in favor as I am of being efficient with prims and being respectful of the people around you, this thread really crosses a line. I have to agree that it is now nothing more than a witchhunt, which is something I have no tolerance for. If Briana and Taessa were able to rez the bookshelves, that is their right to do so, and the far greater offense here is the invasion of privacy and public lynching going on.

I am no happier about prim limits than anyone else (Federal is at 99% object usage and 99% land usage), but I would certainly not go through my neighbor's builds and try to tell them what they can or cannot have out. It is a first come, first serve system, and they are not violating that. Could they be more considerate of their neighbors and think hmm, we are all dealing with an immoveable limit here, do I really need to have these items out? Certainly, but that is forcing your expectations of behavior upon someone else. Given how Briana and Taessa have been treated, I don't blame them for not wanting to do something for those around them.

Fights between neighbors are to be expected, but this is something else entirely. This kind of vitriol is not serving anyone, and certainly will not result in an improved situation in Hawthorne.

I am not surprised at the responses to my thread. It's understandable, perhaps even commendable, for a person to stick up for his friends, whether or not they are in the right.

I recognized the prim problem in Hawthorne, and I sought to find a solution. I began by thinking about what *I* could do to lessen the problem. I deleted two floors of my complex and freed up two percent of available prims. I was happy to log in and see that Kandi was able to finish furnishing her club. Because of what I did, people are able to build a little more.

My intention was not to attack Tae or Bri. It was to solve a problem. When I finished with my own building, I had a look at my neighbors' builds. It *is* possible for someone to create something and not even realize the trouble they're causing. I didn't just choose Bri and Tae to pick on. I was all over having a look, so that I could advise other builders of ways to create similar effects with fewer primitives.

Advice was all I planned to give to Bri and Tae, until I found out that it was never about building a shelf to begin with. **It was never about building a shelf to begin with.** If it were, then Tae would have reconstructed those shelves in a way that would have freed up 600 primitives. Oh, and she wouldn't have *told* me that it wasn't about building the shelves.

If they are getting attacked, it's because they bring it upon themselves. I'm not interested in drama. I'm interested in making this game playable for everyone who pays to play it. If someone comes up to me with an idea on how I can reduce my prim usage, you can believe that I am going to do everything I can to accomodate the needs of the other players. That *is* being neighborly. I removed two floors of a building and freed up about 100 prims. Tae/Bri can *double* that by deleting/remaking a single bookshelf that serves no functional purpose anyway (other than to keep others from building).

You can point fingers back at me all you like, but as I've said, I'm not interested in drama. If you think I'm not doing what's in the best interests of the rest of the community, then you're wrong.

So... you want to bring the Frankenstien Rakes and Pitchforks, or shall I?

Ok, if you can bring me a snapshot of Briana hording primitives in the water under her house, maybe I'll think differently, but until then, I'm going to have to think that this is selfish.

I really don't post here, forums aren't my thing, if you don't believe me check my posts per day, but I will reply to this.

Jade, you IMed me at like 4am, started up on this demanding I do something right now, we talked, eventually I told you I didn't want to deal with this right now, that I was half asleep and I was feeling like I was being pressured while I was at a disadvantage.

You continued to demand I do something right now, started up on the well, when thing, and surprise surprise I stopped replying. Dunno.. didn't even read the rest but I know you must have sent in like 10 more IM's at least, each one more threatening then the last, "I don't want to do this, but your forcing me to" and whatever else you wrote.

They are my bookshelves, and they are Bri's bookshelves, the two that are hers were put up before there even was a prim issue, they've been up for weeks now, the ones I put up were done after the prim hoarding attack, we took down all the boxes that Strom, Si and Art had attacked Bri over, yes, attacked cause thats exactly what it was, and then I put up furniture and bookshelves and whatever else. I'm sorry it looks like something a 5 year old did, actually.. I'm not... its my place and I can leave it as disorganised as I want to.

When you get right down to it, the prims are mine to do with as I please, I paid for them, so I can hold them as long as I continue to pay for them. I didn't get taxed whatever thousands of Linden dollars just to hold them for you and Strom, if you wanted something from me the best way to have done it was by not making it an attack from the start, you started the whole conversation off by saying that Strom had posted an attack on me, but you could have him delete it IF I did what you wanted, thats nothing more then a threat, no matter how you word it.

So yes, it may be selfish for me to say they are mine, but its no more so then you trying to force me to get rid of them cause you want them NOW, the difference is I don't go around twisting people's arms and blackmailing them into doing what I want them to do.

I had nothing to do with Strom's post in the forum. I asked him to wait until I'd had a chance to ask you politely, then I cursed him for doing it anyway. You began ignoring me long before the conversation went sour. I tried to discuss the matter with you in a civilized manner. I'm sorry if, after an hour with hardly any response from you at all, I became rather irritated. I don't respond well to childish attitudes. It was after a few minutes of cursing at Strom that I was able to talk him into removing his forum post if you did the sensible thing.

We can debate whether you have the right to hoard prims until we're blue in the face. All I'm asking is for you to simply do the right thing. If you enjoy all this drama, then don't. But don't be surprised when your relationships don't improve and you develop a reputation for stubborn, childish behavior.

Yes, Jade came to me and we talked about the dreaded prim issue. At first I was *very* insulted and defensive. I felt as if I was being picked on, being the "new kid on the block" and I got the impression that since I was the new kid in town that it was up to ME and my club to downsize to give way for the "older" properties in the sim. After a heated discussion with Jade and a cooling off period for me, I realized this was no the case.

I PAY to play this game, and at a premium I might add. Not only do I PAY for my subscription, but I PAY for 2 other accounts. The meaning here? That since we PAY to play this game we all feel we should be able to log in, have fun and create if we want to -- which is the whole allure of us coming from There and TSO. I will also add that we PLAY the game. We are logged into this game every day and for HOURS. You can always come by the house at night and there are least 3 of us there. To those who rez a sim then leave to never be found again cuz they are in other sims? Shame on you.

After me and Jade spoke, I took a look around at my house and I realized just what she was pointing out. I would like to "hide" behind the fact that I'm new to the game and don't know the wicked ways of the prim, but I won't. It's my responsibility to find out what game 'politics' are in place and find my own niche.

Here's an example ....
1 wall of my house with 2 sets of windows (up and down stairs) total prim usage was 32 prims. ACK!!! I redid my entire house. If we times that 32 by every wall we are looking at MAJOR prim usage. Each wall now is only 5 prims MAX, freeing up a substantial amount of prims AND it looks much better *lol*

The bottom line? I have contributed to the neighborhood by using prims 'wisely' AND I've managed to throw some furtniture in the place. I'm also in the process of re-doing them as well. In then end I will have free'd up half the prims I WAS using AND completely furnish my house with leftovers!!

Now, what's gonna really upset me here? I've gone ahead and spent 2 days on this re-rezzing project of mine to make more room in the sim -- to those who see's this as an opportunity to bank? FORGET IT!!! Be considerate of actions from those who are doing their best to free up the sim and don't take advantage of it.

While I don't really care to become part of this again, the only reason I made a post is because this is not legal behavior. Prim banking has been illegal since back in the old days of Kissling, when the whole sim blew up because it ran out of prims, and before.

Bri openly admits she was prim banking with those boxes, and now you two admit you removed them and replaced them with bookshelves to make it less conspicuous?

I don't care what you build, or where you build, yada yada, but don't waste sim resources, and don't openly admit you're screwing every other player in the game just so you can hold on to a few prim resources in the sim.

If you want the resources, start building and stop hogging. That house is an atrocity to poly designs, certainly the fact that it's got to be the least prim efficient plot of space i've ever seen in my life is reason enough to not also bank prims around it.

However, past this, I don't care, I haven't filed any abuse reports for the same reason -- I don't own anything in Hawthorne anymore, so i'll leave it to the residents.

Kandie, I havn't been to Hawthorne in the last 3 or 4 days, if someone's been banking.. its not me.

You just *said* that you own some of those bookshelves that were meant for prim banking! Are you now denying it? Good grief.

Tae, that's part of my point honey. So many people who aren't even active in the prim they've set up shop in. It makes it *very* hard for those who want to play as an active avi and property in that sim.

I'm not going to start flinging daggers or anything, I really have no energy or time for it. I just wanna be able to log into the game I'm paying out the arse for and enjoy it to it's fullest ability. In a way I feel that everyone who's got things going on in the game in all their many fashions are ripping me off and preventing me from using the most of the 15.00 I pay each month to play.

Other people are paying too you realize. Some, like myself are lifetime members. I know I have stuff in world and I have not been able to be around as much lately, but I'm paid up. So then because I'm not currently as active as I like to be, does that give me fewer rights?

Note that there are many other sims to pick from. There are bars that show land and prim usage in each. It may be less aggrivating for you to link up your belongings and move them to a sim with more space.

I had to move from a full sim before too. Tools are there to help you make a choice. Granted things change and what may be wide open today may be full next week.. but it's just as likely to go the other way too.

I guess I should have been more specific when I posted that, sorry for the confusion.

What my intent of that statement is that for those who are outright and blatently abusing the in-game systems that are there to ensure equal enjoyment of the game, they are the ones who are making me feel as if they are ripping me off. And everyone ELSE in the game, if you pay to play or not.

I do realize that there are a LOT of people who pay to play. And I also an an avid believer that life DOES get in the way of gaming. This is not my issue and this is the times when you step back and see it for what it's worth.

My whole point here is that for those who just jam up a sim and leave never to be seen again or once a week, they are the ones who should take a step back and evaluate what they are doing to the players in that sim who want to play there 100%.

Just an idea, try to let everyone know to link their items where applicable (if they won't be logging on for a bit), and have the linked primitive sets put into the absent player's inventory if they are offline for a while (as a function of login frequency or whatever).

This automatic cleanup wouldn't delete anything, and at the same time free up resources for those that are more active. And think of the tax savings!

Really, that could work out I think. Unless there's some major point I've missed. (Other than technical feasibility.)

Maybe....

Yes the yacht is nearing completion for the current version and is a mear 118 prims at the moment...

However that is only because of the lack of prim resources at my disposal. If it were up to me I would have a much more detailed boat sitting in the water. I have (at bri's request I might add) been keeping the prims low and still trying to make the yacht look presentable.

Thats part of the problem and the reason its taken so long to get this far, its much harder to use larger prims and line them up into a complex object than it is to use small sections and have them make the faces of the object.

Personally strom, i've seen you hanging around there tons and untill Art and Tae had a falling out, this was never an issue.

As far as bri or tae's lack of involvment in hawthorne as of late, why would you go somewhere that you get confronted by the same people every day. Griping and moaning about prims that you payed for, and you're paying taxes on.

Currently I am still the owner of the yacht, it has not yet been delivered, and is not yet complete. With anyluck it will be soon, and hopefully with a reasonably small amount of prims in it.... Again, as per bri's request.

I built the house myself, and it is the 3rd item I ever built in SL besides a conical lamp with a light texture and a bike that is too ugly to rez.

Not everyone is effecient at building. I do not and have never considered myself a good builder and anyone who has known me since i came to SL will tell you that. When Kandi moved in and had boxes rezzed all over her land I didnt complain. Nor did I complain to her building a bench with 20+ prims, plank by plank. People do what they can with the knowledge they can and have no obligation to have to learn photoshop and alpha layers and graphic design to make textures that can be more effecient.

Briana

Nope, no one said anything to me at all about the prims ... of course at the time I had had NO clue about prim usage and full servers and lions and tigers and bears OH MY!

Actually if someone had explained it all to me or if there was a section which a new player could read up on, then it would never have been an issue with me or the house.

PS - thank GOD that bench was killed in the creation stage cuz it was HIDEOUS *LOL*

Your attempts at justification are amusing, Briana. You still fail to address the 600 prim bookshelves in your house, which were blatantly created to prevent others from building.

I have to throw my vote in for 'witchhunt.' My opinions on this subject are already well known, and I won't bother to go into them here again. What I WILL address is the 'let's go poking around looking for *gasp* primhogs!' issue.

The only reason you even know about this Jade, is because you committed a horrible breach of privacy. Would you go poking around someone's RL house the same way? I mean... they could have drugs inside! Or naked pictures! I mean... who knows?!?!?!??!?

I'm guessing you wouldn't. Why? Because it's illegal, and (at least in my state) it's a good way to get shot. (We have pretty open home invader laws up here.)

Everybody needs to back the hell out of other people's bidness.

Why do you have to be so condescending and bitter Jade?

You came to my home today and told me how this was not personal, but yet the posts you make speak otherwise.
I de-rezzed items of mine to free 100 or so prims today while you were there, but yet you continue.

Please do not approach me inworld on this issue anylonger because I will consider it harassment. If you wish to chat about something else, SL-related and non controversial, I will welcome your conversation and a chance to rebuild our friendship.

Briana Dawson

In Briana's defense I have to state that those bookcases (at least 2 of them) have been there for several weeks. Long before this controversy started. So while one of them may have been built in response to the removal of the disputed boxes, the others were not. I won't address the issue of prim banking itself. I am one of those people who can be considerd to be using more than my fair share of prims. (At least based on the Olive model).