"Fixed An Exploit" - whaaaaa?

Chip,

I think what Jarod is trying to say in hiis not so delicate way is that what has happened regarding these scripts is horrible, but that comparable loss has been going on for a long time in SL, between exploit of bugs leading to content theft, and loss of inventory items due to database problems. The net result in all cases is that something is lost. Hard work is destroyed. If you worked on something and it is suddenly freely copyable because of a permission bug in SL, do you feel any more relieved in the end because it wasn't stolen by someone through extraordinary means, but the more run of the mill way?

The loss is still the same ultimately, and I think that is the point he is trying to drive home. We are rightfully outraged about this, but where is the outrage regarding the systematic content theft and data loss that customers have been enduring. His point is that is a crime too.

I don't give a flip if you think SL is a game, that the money means nothing, that it is theft or not by your dictionary, or that you just like to come here and see naked pixels dancing for you. The fact that you would roll your eyes, at an incident that caused *real life* people hurt, mistrust, and anger, just shows how much of an ass you are.

oh im sorry for being so "fucked" im also sorry I wasted my time with the one link to you.
In your own words:
I'm not a teacher do your own homework.

I suggest you take your own advice.

*GROWLS

Ai, I had the same problem. Just about every folder in my inventory was cleared out. It game back slowly over a week or 2 period, same as the others who had the problem. I scanned the thread but I couldn't really tell if these problems were the same as mine {being if their inventorys returned eventually}, or if the items are still lost {perhaphs permently}. I'm hoping its not the latter, cause it is a devestating problem emotionally and financially.

The fact that people are willing to pay real money for it doesn't make it real money. You can't make a legal claim against someone who cheats you out of your Everquest items either. The jurisdiction of Everquest items is the Everquest administrators and the jurisdiction of SL money and SL scripts is the Lindens.

Growl away. You lied yet again, and were caught yet again. Don't get mad, get honest.

Wrong on the second part - in the case of the Everquest items, those were created by Sony - you have no actual rights on them. You specifically have IP/copyright on the content of the SL scripts. The L$ may not have value, but the scripts do from that perspective.

Very good points Jarod! Thank you for presenting some varying ideas without being condesending. And yes, the asset server bugs have been an ongoing issue, causing loss to many. I think this is certainly an issue that *must* be delt with sooner than later.

I said that the GOM was hacked several times. You asked for some links. I gave you a damn good article. Which you apparently didn't read. Just because you would like ppl to jump threw hoops for you doesn't mean they will. I am not providing you with several links. Do your own damn homework woman.

If I write a script, and its fixated on a harddrive I hold a copyright to it, by distributing it they are breaking copyright law for a start...

Just as if I wrote a manuscript, and someone photocopied it.

How much its worth or not worth is actually irrelevant.

I don't mean to say this whole fiasco doesn't matter; I think it matters very much. It's a significant issue in Second Life and I hope the people who used hacked accounts to do dubious things get banned. I don't think SL is a "game" either, I understand it's a very significant part of many people's lives. What I'm rolling my eyes at is the idea that anybody should get in legal trouble in the United States or any other country for something like this. If someone did something against the rules of SL, I think SL is the appropriate place to deal with that. Pressing federal charges would be entirely bogus. If any damage was caused, it was to people's "property" in SL, which they have basically no right to anyway! As I said, the Lindens could shut down SL at any time and they would not owe you a thing. Maybe it shouldn't be that way; maybe SL stuff should be as "real" as physical stuff. But that's not the way it is, so I don't see how criminal charges under the jurisdiction of any nation on earth would be at all legitimate.

Incorrect - I own the intellectual property rights of my creations in SL.. this is a part of the terms of service..

I also own the copyright on my scripts, simply by the nature of copyright.. Microsoft doesn't own the copyright of my word documents, nor does maxtor.

I most certainly CAN take them to court... its simply a matter of it its worth it or not.

I suggest you do a little background reading.

Siggy.

Breaking into a corporate computer system and stealing data isn't a crime? Really hate to be the bearer of bad news but thats 3 for 3.

WHAT was stolen doesn't have much bearing on the actual crime itself.. If I steal a VW is it any different from stealing a Lexus?

If LL decides to nail their nuts to the wall (and to tell the truth I think they should) I will be clapping my hands.

I couldn't give a rats ass if it was the source code for the servers, or Granny May's apple pie recipe -- it's theft..

Not accusing anyone of anything here, but one of the big indications of someone having committed a crime is that they will then tend to make less of it - either by suggesting the crime wasn't a big deal or that the target of that crime isn't that important or is somehow unworthy or is deserving of being targeted.

Vulnerability, shakiness of the product, or lack of legal precedent are no excuses for deliberate criminal behavior.

Exactly the words I was stumbling around trying to find!

Thanks.

I'm not trying to justify anything, I just want accuracy. He didn't steal anything, but he did infringe upon copyrights. There's a legal difference, and it frightens me when people talk about a civil crime like it's a criminal crime.

Because I know what it's like to be so infatuated with something that I let my curiosity override both my sense of good judgement and stark fear of "content providers." Because I remember sitting in a college computer class when I was in junior-high, not being able to figure out how our assignment worked, realizing I could go print out a copy of the teacher's example, and figure out how it worked; I also remember five minutes later how the class and teacher laughed at me, thinking I was trying to cheat.

I'm not trying to justify any crimes, but it chills me to the core to look out on Second Life's economy -- an economy driven by people using cracked software, streaming copyrighted music and movies, selling images snagged from the web -- and then see people demanding that someone who exploited the game -- seriously, sue him for IP theft, but he didn't hack into anything -- be sent to jail and pounded in the ass.

I disagree, but have little hope of convincing anyone here of that.

Oh Wow Jarod excellent point there. I see that. I'm not sure folks wanna crack open that can of worms. Excellent poinst tho. Thanks!

Cat

I get what he's trying to say. It's a bogus argument. You can't compare loss caused by unfortunate accident to loss caused by clear malicious intent. They're apples and oranges, even if the resulting loss is the same. You'd have to be incredibly cynical to believe that LL intends for things to be buggy so that permissions are lost or items vanish from inventory resulting in loss to their customers. Actually, cycnical is too kind. You'd have to be a bit of a moron to think that. On the other hand, you'd also have to be a bit of a moron to believe that the intent of this hacker who bragged about being able to steal things with his hacked client had any intentions other than vandalism and theft. To try and compare the two as being equal is crazy.

He probably should have thought about the possible consequences before committing the act and bragging about it. As someone who makes a portion of my income from sales of IP in SL (created using legally purchased software I might add) this is something I don't take lightly. If someone caused me to lose income that puts food on my table through this kind of malicious behavior, I really wouldn't care what their excuse is. Those kind of actions should have consequences. I'll feel no pity if the person is punished to the full extent that the law allows (which probably isn't much). Something like this takes premeditation. It can't be explained away by a momentary lapse in judgement.

Yes, you can, it's called Negligence.

Negligence involves a lack of care taken or a lack of upkeep and maintenence to a minimum standard. The numerous updates to the client would seem to me that it is being maintained and improved to the best and highest standard available to Linden Lab. Other than a few hundred of my own textures which had their permissions screwed up, and which I really didn't mind that much being freely available, most of the inventory I have lost was lost through the malicious actions of other players who crashed sims whilst I had things out or was working on them. I have to wonder if that kind of thing and hacking the client isn't behind a lot of the various problems we've had in SL.

That's just stupid. Anything that people are willing to pay real money for by definition has value, and in the eyes of the law, is exactly the same as money.

Your argument is similar to the argument that a pound of feathers is lighter than a pound of rock. Not correct.

Buster

Negligence? The fact that they are still updating and improving the game to the best of their abilities says otherwise. Certain events caused by SL servers may be unfourtanate, but they aren't cause by negligence via linden staff.

On the contrary, I understand the hacker ethos quite well, and had some brief dabblings myself. However, two things tempered that a lot for me:

1) I read 'The Cookoo's Egg.'
2) I was personally affected by such activity. Several times, in different ways.

I understand this issue more than most perhaps, as computer security has become a hobby of mine due to the above two plus additional hands-on stuff related to work.

Going back on topic slightly - The DMCA, though a gray area, would be the best law to tackle a suit against whomever did this. However, as per my earlier post, LL needs first to asses the damage and see if its rampant enough to justify the RL $$$ involved in such a legal battle. It probably will, but best to have the paperwork in order first...


OK, that's likely my last word on the matter. I strongly suggest that everyone sit down and wait for LL to come back with the damage assessment. *Then* lets continue this.