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OMG!! Jeska STOP!! please?? End the confusion??

pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
09-23-2005 09:46
Introvert Petunia is so great, Introvert Petunia is so great, everybody loves me, Introvert Petunia is so great
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"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."

~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media



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~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
09-23-2005 09:46
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
Yes. I've found that [email]support@secondlife.com[/email] is a black hole as well.

I've also personally emailed Lindens several times on other issues related to the forum (our group forum desperately needs a subtopic) and never receive a reply.

~Ulrika~


Really? I have always gotten back responses from emailing personally, though yes, [email]support@secondlife.com[/email] is a useless black hole of doom. I am with Panda on not feeling so bad now if even you can't get a response.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-23-2005 10:10
When someone last week, I believe it was, suggested creating a new form for all these political things, I agreed. Then someone pointed out there already WAS a forum for sociopolitical things.

I agree the categories should be maintained, and it would be good if all the political discussions went to the sociopolitical category. (And all the self-aggrandizing threads went to the off-topic category.)

As for the idea of a forum roundtable discussion with the moderators:

I favor forum reform. Not moderator reform. FORUM reform.

I wish not for people to have infinite freedom to kick others around, often en masse, thus running off new players and posters, who may conclude that the entire game must be full of nasty bully children, and causing older players to avoid the forums entirely. It’s not good for SL.

I wish not for people to have infinite freedom to slander others and/or their businesses. I wish for a modicum level of civility.

If and when we do have such a roundtable, I will be representing those who want freedom to express their opinions without fear of intimidation, bullying, or slandering, and with an expectation of being able to post with dignity and have their opinions treated respectfully.

I am not for freedom to express any and all opinions anywhere, whether or not they are truthful or respectful, or freedom to insult and trounce the basic human dignity of others. I am for freedom for all from the tyrany of a few.

I will also be representing the results of the Forum Reform poll I posted some time back, in which 22.5 percent of the 129 respondants voted for strengthening the enforcement of the rules against personal attacks. Sixty-eight percent thought none of the suggested changes were necessary. Of those who thought any of the changes was a good idea, 70 percent voted for strengthening the enforcement against personal attacks.

I will also be promoting my desire that forum bans no longer result immediately in permanent banning from the game. Thirteen percent of the respondants to the poll in favor of this. Of those who thought any of the proposed forum reforms was a good idea, 41 percent voted to rescind this rule.

I'd post a link to it, but I don't know how.

coco
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
09-23-2005 10:12
Oh, Christ alive, not again. I thought that was over with. I thought the forums were going to move on. But now it starts again. God save us.
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-23-2005 10:17
How did I KNOW you would pop up? There should be another couple of people pop up.

Why don't you say, "Oh God no not again" to Ulrika?

Do you seriously expect someone bring up the idea of forum reform and a roundtable to be held with the Lindens about it and for me NOT to represent my views? (And those who agreed with them.)

Or is "Oh God no not again" merely your way of saying, as you have been forcefully for months now, "Shut up and go away, Coco"?

If so, I would point to your response as a precise example of what I'm talking about.

How about saying that to Ulrika? Or Pendari? Or anyone else representing that viewpoint? Ulrika and Pendari, after all, for some odd reason, keep presenting their own views, too. Maybe that's because that's what these forums are FOR.

You just figure they should get to and I should shut up, because you like them. Well, you know, tough.

coco
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Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
09-23-2005 10:25
From: Cocoanut Koala
When someone last week, I believe it was, suggested creating a new form for all these political things, I agreed. Then someone pointed out there already WAS a forum for sociopolitical things.

I agree the categories should be maintained, and it would be good if all the political discussions went to the sociopolitical category. (And all the self-aggrandizing threads went to the off-topic category.)

As for the idea of a forum roundtable discussion with the moderators:

I favor forum reform. Not moderator reform. FORUM reform.

I wish not for people to have infinite freedom to kick others around, often en masse, thus running off new players and posters, who may conclude that the entire game must be full of nasty bully children, and causing older players to avoid the forums entirely. It’s not good for SL.

I wish not for people to have infinite freedom to slander others and/or their businesses. I wish for a modicum level of civility.

If and when we do have such a roundtable, I will be representing those who want freedom to express their opinions without fear of intimidation, bullying, or slandering, and with an expectation of being able to post with dignity and have their opinions treated respectfully.

I am not for freedom to express any and all opinions anywhere, whether or not they are truthful or respectful, or freedom to insult and trounce the basic human dignity of others. I am for freedom for all from the tyrany of a few.

I will also be representing the results of the Forum Reform poll I posted some time back, in which 22.5 percent of the 129 respondants voted for strengthening the enforcement of the rules against personal attacks. Sixty-eight percent thought none of the suggested changes were necessary. Of those who thought any of the changes was a good idea, 70 percent voted for strengthening the enforcement against personal attacks.

I will also be promoting my desire that forum bans no longer result immediately in permanent banning from the game. Thirteen percent of the respondants to the poll in favor of this. Of those who thought any of the proposed forum reforms was a good idea, 41 percent voted to rescind this rule.

I'd post a link to it, but I don't know how.

coco

Totally agree with this, personally.
Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
09-23-2005 10:31
From: Cocoanut Koala
Of those who thought any of the changes was a good idea, 70 percent voted for strengthening the enforcement against personal attacks.



Remember also to take into account those who voted for it, but thought it was not so much "more strict enforcement" that needed to happen, but that a faster response time based on the current rules would be nice. However this was the only option that came even close to touching on that opinion.

By the way, here is a link to that thread (since you did say you would link to it if you knew how) : /120/fd/55796/1.html
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
09-23-2005 10:38
From: Cocoanut Koala
How about saying that to Ulrika? Or Pendari? Or anyone else representing that viewpoint? Ulrika and Pendari, after all, for some odd reason, keep presenting their own views, too.


The difference between yourself and Ulrika...

Whoa, that would be a rather large series of tomes.

The key differences between you and Ulrika:

Ulrika is amusing. Lighthearted at times, serious at others, damn fun to read no matter what, even if I disagree with her (and sometimes I do). Ulrika's dramatic grasp of advanced SL toolsets in addition to her ability to command the English language with a superiority that is nothing less than staggering make her a very potent and respectable figure whose opinions I thus consider with significant weight. Ulrika also benefits from not grinding the same old tired axe for weeks and months at a time, which is neat.

Your posting, on the other hand, has a tone of shrillness that is less than welcoming. Your self-righteousness is wearisome, particularly as you refuse to let the same old tired issues drop.

So, the reason I'm not exhausted with Ulrika is that she's not exhausting. She's a delight. And you are her antithesis.
_____________________
From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Jeska Linden
Administrator
Join date: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 2,388
09-23-2005 10:42
First, I wanted to clarify that the complete context of the forum thread is taken into account when a particular post is reported. Given the often mis-construed nature of online communication, it is possible that the intent you have had when posting is not properly conveyed by your tone or text and that a moderation move may not be immediately transparent. If a mistake is made in moderation, it is often corrected, as was the case recently when a post which I had thought was about NASA on was first moved to Off-Topic, until someone pointed out it was about building NASA equipment in-world, when it was then moved to the building forum for further discussion.

When a post is moderated in any way, we always list the reason and you are always able to ask the moderators why a particular action was taken. Starting a thread about it may not be the best method to accomplish this – but private messages, email or in-world IMs are all alternate methods of communicating with Lindens. Also, you can all be sure that the forum moderators, myself included, do take the time to read the forums even when there aren't any reported posts.

To clarify, per the Forum Guidelines, any aggressively offensive personal attack made in the forums will be removed, along with any statements that violate the Community Standards. We may also lock threads when there is no obvious constructive discussion going on or when the thread has turned into a space where one or two people are taking turns personally attacking one another.

The purpose of the Second Life Forums is to promote discussion and education about Second Life. I encourage you to utilize the reported posts in a more constructive manner and participate in the forums in a manner which helps prevent situations where threads will be closed. Or if you are interested in a topic brought up in a thread full of personal attacks, start another thread about that topic and have the discussion.

I'm also not clear about why there are so many outcries against moving posts to other, more appropriate forums. The other forums we have created grew organically from within the forum community, when certain topics were identified as interesting enough to the community to necessitate their own space. This allows Residents to find people with similar interests to talk about particular topics.
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-23-2005 10:48
From: Pendari Lorentz
Remember also to take into account those who voted for it, but thought it was not so much "more strict enforcement" that needed to happen, but that a faster response time based on the current rules would be nice. However this was the only option that came even close to touching on that opinion.

By the way, here is a link to that thread (since you did say you would link to it if you knew how) : /120/fd/55796/1.html

Thanks, Pendari! A while back I managed to find that post and copy it for myself to my Microsoft word, but when I tried to replicate it here, it came out to a bunch of @)#%(#@)@ sort of signs. Anyway, a link to the whole thread is even better.

coco
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
09-23-2005 13:25
From: Jeska Linden
...When a post is moderated in any way, we always list the reason and you are always able to ask the moderators why a particular action was taken. Starting a thread about it may not be the best method to accomplish this – but private messages, email or in-world IMs are all alternate methods of communicating with Lindens. ...
I have a couple of concerns regarding this excerpt which I think are appropiate in the context of a thread titled "...End the confusion??". Phrases like "may not be the best method" are quite ambiguous; to my reading it is not a prohibition, but a suggestion. It also seems contrary to a prior post of your's which said:
Reposting – If a moderator removes your post, do not repost it elsewhere. Do not repost threads that have been locked or deleted and do not repost content that has been edited or deleted by a moderator. Furthermore, please do not post a "why did my post get removed" post. Send any further discussion regarding post removals to [email]abuse@lindenlab.com[/email].
which is far less ambiguous and seems to indicate that appeals ought only be sent via e-mail. This would be fine except that mail to Linden Lab often seems to vanish as noted above by a few posters.

Moreover, when the body of "offending" posts are deleted in their entirety along with contextual posts surrounding them being erased completely, what material could an appellant bring to bear in his or her favor? As I have noted elsewhere I received a forum and game suspension for "Harassment, Verbal Abuse" on Septemper 2. I'm pretty sure what the offending post was as I had one single sentence post expurgated by you on that day. However, I did not even contest the suspension as neither the text of my "offending" post, nor the context surrounding it was available upon my receiving notice of suspension. Now I happen to believe that you misread my posting as you yourself note above:
Given the often mis-construed nature of online communication, it is possible that the intent you have had when posting is not properly conveyed by your tone or text and that a moderation move may not be immediately transparent.
Sure, I know that jails are full of convicted self-prolaimed innocents, too. But please understand I'm not contesting my suspension, but simply showing that it would be impossible to contest it. I read in your purple post above what seems to be genuine puzzlement on your part as to why people have a lack of faith in moderation here and I am trying to show one reason why.

Now in my particular case, after not getting a response to "please un-suspend my forum account as the suspension period is over". I waited about a week in order to not be impatient or demanding, and then sent e-mail directly to another Linden requesting my forum account be reinstated as it should have been on or around September 5. On September 14th I did receive a cordial personal reply which quoted my text in full, yet said neither that my account would or would not be un-suspended. As of this morning, my forum account is still suspended.

A natural question would be "Why did he not mail Jeska about the subject?". I have two reasons: the first is that I really had no idea why my account was not reinstated. If my account was not reinstated due to simple clerical oversight, then I should feel free to petition you about it. On the other hand, if the continued suspension was not simply a mistake, then it would be quite foolish of me to appeal to the very person who suspended me. I need to make this very clear, I am not for a second asserting that this was anything other than an honest mistake, but in the absence of any information at all I don't think it unreasonable for me to be hesitant.

The second reason I did not wish to petition you for reinstatement of my forum privileges is that my game account is still an active member of Live Help which you are the head of. In the absence of any information, the possibility that calling attention to my forum status could cause me to be kicked out of Live Help was very real. I still enjoy Live Help volunteering and I think I'm pretty good at it. I was loathe to risk a significant portion of what I enjoy in-game in order to have my forum privileges reinstated. Yes, I'm aware I'm calling attention to it now and that I could risk losing my "game" for doing so.

So in summary, I think you've been sending very confusing messages to the forum participants and that there has been a chilling effect upon forum discourse as as a result of these mixed messages and their ties to in-game privileges.

I hope this helps you understand a little better why people have been so critical of forum moderation generally.
katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
09-23-2005 14:45
From: Jeffrey Gomez
I'm formally going to request a "Forum Policy Roundtable." It seems enough of an issue to bug Pathfinder and Jeska about.
I agree. We need clear guidelines that are applied consistently and across the board..not just putting out fires periodically when the natives grow restless or bored.
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
09-23-2005 15:40
From: Introvert Petunia
I have a couple of concerns regarding this excerpt which I think are appropiate in the context of a thread titled "...End the confusion??". ....
Not that this is any of my business, but if I was Jeska my response to this would be a shrug of the shoulders.

I dont see that you are bringing up anything here that points out a flaw in the policies they already have setup. As to the percieved vagueness, policies (especially customer service policies), are usually formulated more like guidleines than they are "rules." If they are codified or "written in stone" as you seem to be suggesting, they are generally less usefull and less effective in practice.

Seems to me you are just pissed off over not being reinstated fast enough, which is likely for:

a) a good reason, (that they know about but you dont)
or
b) they are overworked (as we all know they are) and haven't got to it yet.

I dont see the big deal. I mean, it must be frustrating and I am not trying to diminish your upset about it, but I dont see any problem with forum moderation as it now exists, given the existence of human error etc.

As much as I disagree with a lot of their recent policies, I think from the service point of view the Lindens are doing a fine job given their staffing troubles and growth issues.
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
09-23-2005 16:07
The correct way to punctuate a sentence that starts: "Of course it is none of my business but --" is to place a period after the word "but." Don't use excessive force in supplying such moron with a period. Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about.
-- Lazarus Long
Sorry, that was just too easy. :)
Jim Lumiere
Registered User
Join date: 24 May 2004
Posts: 474
09-23-2005 16:17
From: Jeska Linden
... snipped for brevity ...

I'm also not clear about why there are so many outcries against moving posts to other, more appropriate forums. The other forums we have created grew organically from within the forum community, when certain topics were identified as interesting enough to the community to necessitate their own space. This allows Residents to find people with similar interests to talk about particular topics.


It is my personal opininon that upon closer examination you will find that the outcries are not about moving a single post ... but about moving one out of a group of obviously related posts. If only one posts is moved only one, and all the others are left in place, how can that create a picture of even and fair treatment? How can we have faith in moderation that appears so capricious?
Tang Lightcloud
Sweet & Juicy
Join date: 22 May 2004
Posts: 377
Shrugs
09-23-2005 16:25
I dont understand what the big deal is about where a forum thread ends up at. It does not take me that long to find what I want to find. Of course I mainly just do a lot of trolling and scrolling most of the time anyways. I quickly skim past anything that has more than 2 paragraphs and only stopping on something that appears witty, drenched in drama, contains some useful information, or an all out forum battle. Other than that, she can moderate, lock, stick, delete and move these forum threads anywhere she wants- to include where the sun dont shine and Im sure Ill stumble across it eventually. And if I cant find it ---Ill just go find some other place to troll---err read. Maybe I just dont take all this that seriously, seems to me there more important things to be concerned about than precise and specified post thread locations or some forum policy.
Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
09-23-2005 17:09
From: Introvert Petunia
The correct way to punctuate a sentence that starts: "Of course it is none of my business but --" is to place a period after the word "but." Don't use excessive force in supplying such moron with a period. Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about.
-- Lazarus Long
Sorry, that was just too easy. :)
It's never easy to quote Heinlein, and although he is one of my favorites, that quote makes sense no much. :)
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
09-23-2005 17:17
From: Enabran Templar
Oh, Christ alive, not again. I thought that was over with. I thought the forums were going to move on. But now it starts again. God save us.


Oh, Christ alive, not again!
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
09-24-2005 04:23
From: Dianne Mechanique
It's never easy to quote Heinlein, and although he is one of my favorites, that quote makes sense no much. :)
I'm sorry, I was going to say "If only you read as hard as you post then you might be marginally relevant", but then I realized that you probably have some language impairment so I shan't tease you about it any further as picking on the differently-abled is neither funny, nor kind, nor polite. I do know some people who work in the speech-and-language therapy fields in case you are in need of a referral. Please accept my apologies that this didn't occur to me earlier.
Tere Karuna
Registered User
Join date: 4 Jul 2004
Posts: 159
09-24-2005 06:56
Why not just give up and create a rant/flame forum? Gives the children a place to play and the more mature can get on with constructive conversation in the normal forums.

Ofcourse I guess that also creates the risk of people personally placing flames into a thread they disagree with in hopes to get it banished to the flames forums.... Damn humans, they will twist any idea to thier own benifit.
Emma Soyinka
Got moo? o_o
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 218
09-24-2005 08:19
From: Enabran Templar
Ulrika is amusing.

This is entirely up to your own personal bias and preference. It's nice of you to state your own personal preference as a fact though. How anti-intellectual. :p
Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
09-24-2005 12:07
From: Introvert Petunia
I'm sorry, I was going to say "If only you read as hard as you post then you might be marginally relevant", but then I realized that you probably have some language impairment so I shan't tease you about it any further as picking on the differently-abled is neither funny, nor kind, nor polite. I do know some people who work in the speech-and-language therapy fields in case you are in need of a referral. Please accept my apologies that this didn't occur to me earlier.
I find most of your posts very smart and well worded even though I dont always agree with them by far. Every once in a while though there are two or three in a row that make absolutely no sense to me (like this one).

I can't figure out if you are serious about my "impediment,";(?) or what the joke is here, but if the quote from Heinlein was correctly made, then Heinlein needs some help with his sentence structure, I was assuming you just misquoted it, cause it was singularly unintelligible.

As to reading, I am a book collector and have probably one of the largest and most eclectic private collections in my house that I have ever seen. I am also an experienced researcher and writer so I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Finally, "... you might be marginaly relevant." is basically making it a personal attack. You might want to phrase it as "... your ideas might be marginally relevant." to avoid the inevitable abuse reports. ;)
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
09-24-2005 12:10
From: Tere Karuna
Why not just give up and create a rant/flame forum? Gives the children a place to play and the more mature can get on with constructive conversation in the normal forums.

Ofcourse I guess that also creates the risk of people personally placing flames into a thread they disagree with in hopes to get it banished to the flames forums.... Damn humans, they will twist any idea to thier own benifit.


Reminds me of that saying, "The problem with people is people". :)

Wellll for me, coming here... it's like a zoo really. I mean that in the best of ways, checking out all the animals, domestic, exotic, everything in between... maybe even walking with my daughter and carrying around balloons and snax. Sure, sometimes certain beasts get loose and kill zookeepers, but is that gonna be the end of the zoo? No way!
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Copper Surface
Wandering Carroteer
Join date: 6 Jul 2005
Posts: 157
09-24-2005 12:17
Certainly the end of the zookeepers.
Julian Fate
80's Pop Star
Join date: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,020
09-24-2005 15:04
From: Tere Karuna
Why not just give up and create a rant/flame forum?

There used to be one. They got rid of it because it got completely out of hand (duh).
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