Creators of Beauty: Taking the Time to Say THANKS!

Thanks for saying that. I always feel the same way about lists. I'm just not bold enough to voice out. I find myself playing along though, be a "team player." So I don't expect anything. But always having this self-defeating perspective takes the fun out of making things in the first place. And I'm not tunnel-visioned to do things here claiming it's just for my eyes only.

If I learned anything here in SL though, it's not to believe one's forum press or lack thereof. But it's quite ... I dunno it's still something, like a knot in the back.

I don't look for thanks but when someone does say it, it does fill me with warm fuzzy feelings, of belonging. There're times people have talked with me and mentioned something I made. I look back at them and feel like, wow someone else thinks this is worth something. I've thanked other people in SL for their works too. It's nice to do that sometimes cause for me I take it as something like, connecting with someone.

The best thanks are the ones said personally in a quiet moment where no one else is watching. That's what I believe. And everyone who as made things that moved me know such.

I couldn't agree more Lash

My thoughts exactly, and I've been here since '03. In fact, this is one of the main reasons I'm considering leaving Second Life - I'm tired of feeling like an outsider. Like you, I've never been able to explain why...I mean, people are nice enough to my face but when it comes down to 'lists' (including this one obviously)/private IMs/etc. I'm always on the outside looking in. Now, I'm not going to go off and create conspiracies (ahem), but it is a little disappointing at times, enough that I think I may finally just cash out and be done with it. I've got no shortage of friends in RL, and I'm not sure it's worth wasting my time figuring out why I've got none online. Lots of people in SL have the opposite problem...who knows, maybe that's why I don't fit in here...

My recommendation is not to give up, Morse. If you enjoy what you're doing, that should make up for the lack of clique recognition, as annoying as that may be at times. Several times I've considered selling my whole business with all land and rights, but then I realize how much I really enjoy making clothing. I would miss it.

I post to the New Products forum almost every day, and don't usually get a lot of replies. Yet, the people who buy every single item I put out will heap praises on one of the more 'popular' designers if they post a boring pair of jeans, and never post in one of my threads. I was decently popular in high-school, so I see little need to sing my own praises here to make up for it. I'm very satisfied with what I do and create, and that's all that really matters. My sales tell a far more honest story than my threads do.

I have some great friends in SL that I hang out with, have fun with, and that actually care about me as a person. (Enough to remember what my brother does for a living and ask how his work is going. That's really something in a temporary online environment, I think.) The enjoyment of creating is enough, and the sales prove that others enjoy it as well. I'm not a sycophant, or a follower, so while the cliqueishness might annoy me, it doesn't upset me at all.

All this is very funny to read. I "made the list" so to speak... well, once Ingrid posted (thanks Ingrid, btw), but if you think that means I am in some "clique" or have a bunch of friends, you're sadly mistaken.

The only friend I've had here for the past year, for the most part, has been Starax, and he is no longer. I've spent the past week now either building, staring at the ground, crying, or looking for new friends. It just so happens seeing something nice said about me personally, eventhough it's just over something I've done in a game, picked me up a little at a time I needed it very much. I don't know where this clique is that I might be part of, or where they've been while I've been feeling this alone.

I also know I was building long before I ever saw my builds mentioned on these forums.

I didn't step in to judge and rain on the parade when other were being recognized either. I just kept working.

Clique. That's funny.

Agreed, some of the most popular designers will get excessively praised, but not everyone on this list or that is so endowed with friends. Not everyone who praises a builder is doing so because of their popularity either. Obviously Ingrid isn't, since she mentioned me. I'm as much a hermit as anyone.

stormy,

not that my opinion means much these days, but you are one of the top three best primsters (out of 30,000) in all of secondlife.

I am amazed and enthralled daily by what people have accomplished in second life... Bravo to all of the creators here!!!! Thank you so much!

Don't misunderstand my meaning here, Stormy. I've seen your builds, and they're amazing, and well worth the mention. I'm not stating that the only people who will be recognized here are recognized because they belong to a clique.. Only that there are a LOT of very talented people in SL that will get no mention because they don't belong to a clique, or don't know the "right people" who happen to post to the forums.

Starax is certianly someone I would have mentioned myself. His was one of the first things I saw in SL that made me point it out to others, amazed at the talent and creativity it took. (His half person coming out of the lake, and pretty much everything I've seen done by him since.)

I'm not at all trying to denegrate the talents of those who have been mentioned, as much as point out that these people just happen to have been noticed by certian people, and they aren't the be-all and end-all of whatever their special field may be. Sorry if I made you defensive.

And since you mentioned looking for new friends, I'd like to invite you to attend Miggy's event where he DJs every Friday night. It's a fun and welcoming bunch of people, and a lot of great conversation about just about everything, from movies to politics, religion, ethics.. you name it. I've met most of my really good SL friends there. You'd be more than welcome.

Nephilaine (Pixel Dolls)---just WOW!! Most of PD's clothes are nowhere near stuff I would even consider in rl (I am a "jeans, t-shirt, workboot" gal) but my SL avie is an addict to everything PD, and many times has spent stipend+++ on Tuesdays at Neph's

Jonquille Noir (Little Rebel)--I am going to post you here because even though my avie may not visit Little Rebel as much as I should, I ALWAYS recommend your place to newbies, as well as all men new and old for quality, affordabilty, and versatility

Daphne Molinari (Daphne's Delights)--not only is she my in-game sis, who just spent weekend here with me in rl , but she has been an inspiration and a teacher with MUCH patience as I try to learrn Photoshop myself. ALWAYS willing to help people, both new and old. She has beautiful creations and just keeps getting better and better

Munchflower (Nomine)--the queen of gothic/vampiric...own much, now if I could just get my avie out of the tanned, supermodel look every now and then..... Awesome, incredible skins that unfortunately flatter everyone's face but mine Again, always always recommended to everyone I come across

Fallingwater--for her jewelry and flowers (particularly the bouquets)

Ameretto Fredericks (Amerottica)--not only a sweet, supportive friend, but someone who puts color and cheer into her designs! Check out her newest outfits, the details are amazing!!

Leyla Firefly (L&F Gecko)--the one who finally made a skin to compliment my avie without me having to change a single thing about my face! And the clothes rock too...so miss new stuff from ya!

Storma Amarula (Exotica)--newer designer who is outstanding in clothes, shoes, AO's, and now SKINS too (saving up for a skin from you!!!) Dying to see what you have in store for the future!

But if you made everything black, then you'd be a non-conformist, just like everyone else!

You do have the distinction of telling the FILTHIEST joke I've ever heard in SL... and coming from me, that means something!

-Flip

But you can't leave! You're King of SL!

HOLY CRAP I can't believe I forgot to include Lash and Ale Bukowski (Pirates Cove in Varney)

Jonq,
Hugs, I will say I've always appreciated yours and Siggy's contributions to SL. You and lilone Sandgrain were my inspiration to d/l the GIMP and start learning how to use. I could still use some tutoring if you have time *hint*. I have many of your mens clothes and appreciate you as one of the very few who does put out quality and quantitative products in this oft overlooked market. Thanks for all you do.
ONE LOVE!

I've walked the streets of New York, been to Olde London Town,China Town and Elven Villages too many to mention. I've seen some avatars that have true beauty, TRUE beauty almost to the point that a spark of life is behind their eyes.

Some of the creations in Second Life are truely amazing of that their is NO question. I wish I had your skill I really do.

If I had your skill I would make this the place that it really deserves to be, I would build New York and when I was done I would make it live & I would make it breathe so that it had a PLACE in this world as something other than a wonderful 'build'.

The thing that always springs to mind when I walk among these places in SL is that Kevin Costner movie Field of Dreams - remember that quote? - 'if you build it they will come'. The creators in this place have that kind of vision but it all falls short because they STOP at building.

Second Life is TOO haphazard. Rather than allow you to build anything anywhere if Linden Labs would just add even a LITTLE content then this place could REALLY live.

Ever seen that game - Sim City? Now just imagine something along those lines but a true 3d enviroment like this one, where those commercial zones could be full of REAL people running REAL businesses, where the residential zones would grow into REAL communities as opposed to what we have now with some poor resident living next door to that huge shopping mall or having his view wrecked by that hideous neon club.

Cris Midnight living in his big house on the hill,scattered around his home are lots of little plots of 'first timers' gazing up in awe at what is POSSIBLE in this world. Then off they go to a commercial zone,shopping at Aimee Webbers flagship PREEN store for a little while before moving on across the street to that well known nightspot The Edge.After dancing for a little while they decide to take a walk into the Chicago of the 1950's and mix with the seedy gangster types that hang around there.

Thank you to ALL the creators in Second Life - guys - the imagination that builds these places could take us SO much further.

I retrospect I see I sounded crass when mentioned "making the list". I wasn't trying to sound like a snob (although I did anyway).
Here's what happened. There's been "list builders/designers you like" posts since I started. I wasn't among the listed and never expected to be. When I cruised through this thread and saw someone took the time to send kudos my way, I was delighted and hammered out a thank you post.
If it makes you feel any better, I'm somewhat of a SL hermit myself. I didn't plan to be one, but that's how it turned out. I've met only an handful of forum posters, and most residents have never heard of me. Not that I'm fishing for sympathy here, just that I'm more of a nobody than a celeb.

I would like to add HoseQueen McLean to the list for her "Poo Chair". It is indeed a thing of beauty.

Ok, I have to see this!

Well I wanted to post some names, but hearing all this talk of cliques made me sad. It's just that from my perspective nothing I can do will absove me from the clique stigma. If I honestly name Neph as one of my clothing design heros...then I will be accused of supporting some kind of clique.

But what if I complement Ryntha Suavage (who agreed with Jonquille that "same old people stroke the same old people"?? Does her spot on my website (http://www.preenfashion.com/models.htm) make her part of the clique? Or do I get credit for simply naming the designers I honestly like?


Come to think of it, Nylon is on my website as well (a name mentioned by Ryntha)



So ya. Other than those two mentioned above, I won't name anybody.

I completely don't want to be a jerk to anyone, but I do want to reiterate something my mom once told me:

She told me if I'm doing something just for the recognition - be it helping people, creating something, whatever - then I should maybe question why I'm doing what I'm doing in the first place.

Do I make stuff in SL because I enjoy it? Or because I want others to validate how good I am at what I do?

Don't get me wrong, a complement is fantastic. Makes you feel wonderful. Getting named on someone's fave designer/builder/whatever list makes you feel great.

But getting on a list like that isn't the reason I spend hours upon hours in SL making stuff until my mouse hand cramps. Its because I have a blast doing it.

So, I guess all I have to say is, have fun and don't worry if so-and-so doesn't name drop you in some list on these crazy ol' forums. After all, fun is why we're all in SL, right?

(And you're ALL fabulous! )

Well I'm still not taking you off mine. So there

Here I am, and here are my numbers:

1. "Well I wanted to post some names, but hearing all this talk of cliques made me sad. It's just that from my perspective nothing I can do will absove me from the clique stigma. If I honestly name Neph as one of my clothing design heros...then I will be accused of supporting some kind of clique."

I have given considerable thought to the position you are in, Amy, and others like you as well, even before you said this, for some days now, and I sympathize with how it feels. It is easy for me to empathize, because I was in the same position as many of you here in terms of fame and being widely liked in TSO and on the TSO boards. I was as influential in that game as anyone, and more so than most. In terms of game success, no question. I wasn't EXACTLY analogous to you, of course - I'm a lot more serious, older, less cute, all those things that just make up different personalities. I was also famous for writing too long posts there, too, lol.

We also had the clique stigma going on there, and in those forums. We had players modding the boards (which were not on the official game site), and those mods had similar troubles with being a clique, called a clique, called too powerful, etc. Which they were, lol, though they periodically had fall-outs and shake-ups among themselves.

As I have said before, it is not your fault or anything to be ashamed of that you are a well-liked and famous person. It is not your fault that LL hasn't yet figured out that this game is getting bigger, new players are coming in, and they need to start being more careful. I know you know what I'm getting at, because I've talked of this before.

So you are in an unenviable position - along with people like you here on the forums. When LL gets their PR act together, things will be better for you. There is no reason to feel guilty or feel bad about being a well-liked, successful, and famous player. No reason for ANYONE to feel defensive about that. Yet, it is a natural thing to feel, given what all has been discussed, and I do understand and empathize.

2. Regarding these lists of people and things, I know they are always in-groupy and all, with friends naming friends, etc., but I always participate in them and enjoy participating in them. (When I say "always," remember I didn't just spring up from the ether when I appeared on these boards, but actually was a living, breathing human who enjoyed other online games and environments and forums - and have been hugely successful and well-regarded in all of them - for years.)

I didn't answer on this one, because I really don't know that many people's individual work. But I answered on the "heroes" thing, because I did know people I admire.

What I do is answer things honestly. Listing those players who I personally feel have contributed something to me, regardless of their positions on this or that issue. Hence, in the "heroes" thread, I listed those players who are well-known to ME - which means some of them, like Amy, are also well-known on the boards. (Although I listed as people I admired, not my heroes - Amy isn't my hero, lol.) But I also list people no one knows from Adam. It could be that some people on these forums don't really know anyone else who isn't on the forums, and maybe that makes it look more insular - I don't know.

That is my approach, and I enjoy giving the praise. I enjoy getting it, too - but I don't usually end up on any lists, here or in TSO. Usually I get on "writes best posts" list, and sometimes a nod for being nice, or entertainment. And definitely get on "writes longest posts" lists. I was also known for writing the shortest post ever, which consisted of "!", lol.

Getting praise from someone on a list always involves some embarrassment. Not getting praise on a list you really think you should be on always involves some sting.

Fact is, the HUGE MAJORITY of players of a game don't even know the dang lists exist, cause they never read the forums!

3. In the current atmosphere, I think it is important to separate out the idea of the normal, natural evolution of friendships and ties (and the inevitable cry of cliques), and the danger of the people who run the game being in bed with - or seeming to be in bed with - a small group of privileged players. Especially when the benefits of such boosted fame and connections involve real life money.

In other words, of course people list Amy! And of course people don't list my friend so-and-so, they don't even know him! And of course Amy should be able to bask in the praise without feeling guilty, or give it without feeling guilty. But of course others who do just as good work will be overlooked. And yes, it does start to feel bad if you are doing good work and you know you aren't hot on the forums and you really do end up feeling you will never stand a chance. Especially if you aren't the kind of person to do all the socializing that will boost your business and your name recognition.

I have felt some of that myself. Particularly since there are WAY more things to buy than there are people (or money) to buy them. But that would be true of any real-life situation, too. If you have a good product, and people are buying it, then for all you know, you might even be selling more than some of the more well-known people. Well, I could go on and on, but I'm getting in kind of a boggle here on just one point.

4. Just as Amy feels the pain of the impossible situation she describes above, and just as a number of other people feel pained and defensive about it, I, too, feel pain. For those who feel (justifiably) unhappy about having to feel defensive about their friendships or their success, there are just as many feeling left out. Just as I can empathize with your situation, Amy and others, you would do well to empathize with the situation of those being left out. I know you do, and I know you try to include them, but let me talk a bit here anyway, because, from my point of view, you aren't doing a good enough job with that.

I believe I am allowed to speak of myself, right? I don't think I risk any kind of warning or whatever by speaking my mind. So here it is: You cannot have a good game environment if you keep trying to cut people from the herd. "Yes, we are friendly and loving and great people and of course you're welcome to join, except, of course for you, you, you, and you."

For myself, I know that I am not supposed to be one of you, and I realize that I am expected to shut up and go away by a number of people on this forum. Despite my honest expression of my views here, and my overall attempts to be kind to people (despite a sentence or two here or there, I realize), I have been made to cry. By cry, I mean, tears want to come. That is unusual for me, and I generally get that way when I discover I have accidentally hurt someone. I am not used to feeling that way because I feel hurt myself.

So overall, I am definitely not one of the in-group. In fact, I am ostracized, and have evolved only from being an alt, to being a dazzled follwer, to being a wannabe troll. Do you think that feels good for a person like me? I've told you enough about myself, despite it sounding immodest, so that you will know I have not been treated this way before.

As far as I can tell, my induction/hazing into this forum and my resultant status of pariah and outcast and, as someone well put it above, "outsider", has resulted entirely because of my making criticisms of established game routines (such as suggesting we should have more ways to make money), and most critically, because of friendships I had prior to coming to this game and my loyalty to same.

When I get hurt on these forums, and go to my friends in the game - people you guys do not even know exist - they say such things as, "they run everybody off," or, "they're a bunch of bloodsuckers," and the like. Why are they saying these things? Maybe because people feel welcomed and allowed into the group only if they toe certain party lines.

This is what you should think about.

If I can understand Amy's position - and I do, having been there - you should try to understand mine and what I'm saying here, particularly because, though you don't like to think about or admit it - it is shared by more people than me. I have been surprised to find that my normal friends in the game have this view of the forums. One of them keeps wanting to post suggestions, but he ALWAYS, ALWAYS doesn't. He says he doesn't want to have to deal with everybody putting him down. Obviously, something is fundamentally wrong with the way people differ with someone's idea or opinion in here.

You should think about your treatment of me. Then you should think about your treatment of others, who may not be as good with words or as diplomatic as I am. Because if you think you can have a happy game, or pleasant forums, when you still put forward in every thread the loud and clear message, "but we don't mean YOU," then you never will. And this is exactly the message you put forward, and often. I happen to be one of the recipients of the message.

Until that changes, you will never have pleasant forums, and never have reasoned discourse, and succeed only in driving people away from not just the forums, but from the game.

cocopariah