Is LL over stepping their power??

ISP rulings have already been dealt out, in fact against the ISP's for reading customer email. If I had to guess (but i'm not a lawyer, as Smiley so prudently pointed out), I would reckon because ISPs are "common carriers" -- ie, they don't have 100% control of what goes in and out of their servers, they can get spanked because they're trusted with the throughput of traffic.

SL, on the other hand, is a closed system, and as such, has different rules and allowances according to US law. As they have complete control of what goes in and out of their system (theoretically, and technically), I think they have the right to monitor and censor as they please.

If I'm not mistaken, there has been precedent where malls have kicked folks out of their premises for wearing t-shirts and the like that the mall deems inappropriate... as that falls under free speech, I would imagine this could be carried over to private conversations. IE if the mall didn't like your conversation about blowing up the GAP, they could make you leave.

LF

1) I concede that in your mind you believe that you know what you are talking about.

2) I don't care to argue with a loopy forum troll who's just trying to be difficult.

3) If you don't understand that real laws always trump company policy or a TOS, you need more of a basic education than either of us have the patience for through postings on a forum.

explain to me how i'm "griefing the forum" everyone has the right to be heard. and like I stated before I'll probably get banned for my post that started this thread and if that happens then LL proves that they have no concern for anyone's right to freedom of speech!

In our own minds, we're always right.



Is this what those goofy logic kids refer to as an "Ad Hominem" attack?





Again, I'm looking for precedent. A law needs to be enforced and tested in a court of law before it has any real bearing on the world at large.

There are enough laws in the books to convict every one of us and send us all to prison for 34 consecutive life sentences. I don't care about those laws. I care about the ones where, upon presenting in a court of law, the judge goes "hey! this is a relevent law! It has bearing against LLab! LLab, say you're sorry and give this girl a puppy! Case dismissed!"


Seeing as you're stepping back, I will too. I need some sleep anyway.

LF

Were this TSO, Stratics, or Sony, you'd have about a 50/50 shot of being banned from the game. Assuming you're innocent of any other Tossable offense, you have about a .01% chance of being banned from SL. Zero percent chance because you posted this.

LF

Nappy and Aislin:

Never mind arguments about what rights you may or may not have, mind this is really about access to a businesses services. Access that is controlled not by law, but by Linden Lab policy.

When the suspension was enforced, your only real recourse according to the TOS (you did read that, right?) is to sent LL an e-mail stating you wish to have the case reviewed. You were not to post about it in the forums, as their TOS forbids that.

And a poor recourse it is, as stories have it, sending in an e-mail rarely elicits a response, never mind an actual review.

But that's the reality of it. And knowing this, if you want to continue to have access to this service, you need to avoid putting yourself in a position where you'd be seen as a threat to LL's business. See, that's the primary reason LL suspends and bans griefers - they threaten their business.

Do your friends talk about bombing whole sims? Have they actually done it? Are they in the habit of shooting at other avatars for any reason not involving a specific in-world game? If you'd answer any of these questions with a yes - you're in a position to be seen as a threat. If you have ever greifed anyone for any reason, then you're every move will be scrutinized and ARs against you will be taken more seriously.

Avoid this situation by channeling your energies into more constructive and social pursuits. Like shooting people? Get your friends together and build yourself a shooting game. Yes, it takes longer than just whipping out your favorite push gun and annoying the hell out of passerby, but in the end, you don't get banned for it. If you do well, you'll even get praise for it.

See, 'round these parts, that's called "being an adult". You take responsibility for the choices you make, including the choice of who you hang around with.

I sincerely hope this works out ok for the both of you. Suspensions to end, and afterward you can resume your play in-world and enjoy SL. Taking proper care of your choices will help make sure you don't have to deal with that again.

That is absolutely not the truth regarding TSO. He would stand virtually NO chance of being banned from the forums, and certainly not from the game, for bringing up this subject on the forums.

Skipping over the exchange between a couple of you regarding legalities, I'm confused about the crime in question. Seems that some people were discussing the possibility of eventually carrying out a crime, in IM's?

And someone is banned from the game because of having had this either hypothetical or planning conversation in an IM? But hadn't done the crime yet?

Add to that the fact that, as many people have brought up, it's always good for the accused to get enough information on what he/she has done wrong to be able to at least defend him/herself to the Lindens.

coco

P.S. Jillian, the TOS forbids posting about the situation in the forums? Are you sure? I just looked up under "guidelines" and didn't see it.

Translation: "Hi, my name is Smiley Sneerwell, and I would like to nullify any valid points that I've made in this post by attacking Lordfly personally."

LF,

You bring up a few excellent points. Remember privately owned closed systems don't provide instantly exceptions to privacy - again, look to privately owned businesses that have dressing rooms or bathrooms.

As for freedom of speech, I can't see how that relates, as that's a totally different issue.

ok well I started this thread to see if things LL was doing was lawful and from I have been reading it isn't. I started this thread with just one situation in mind and I knew that others have been in the same situtation so therefore I wanted my voice to be heard. Now as far as shooting people and all that other BS, I'll say yes to 95% of it but the main question is does this happen on "safe" land? NO all this happens on land and areas that have damage set b/c as a group we respect others rights to play peacefully. There are some places and island that have damage on for a reason and it IS to shoot each other and have fun! but since you want me to have "more constructive and social pursuits" answer me this: if you assult someone with a scripted object then why not make all scripted objects a violation of the TOS that way you can cut down alot of problems in the game?

If you punch someone in the face, then why doesn't society outlaw all hands? Surely that would cut down on a lot of facepunching.

Answer: Because that's ridiculous.

My fireflies do not orbit people.

Francis' ROAM system does not turn a Sim into an atomic wasteland.

My helicopter hat does not strike fear and pestilence upon those who oppose me. (That's what the forums are for.)

It does if you strap your AV with a nasty push attachment.

A recent case of Electronic Communications Privacy Act enforcement, for the FIC buddies LF and HP:

http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opinions/03-1383EB-01A.pdf

So who is your main account, Smiley?

You tell me yours, and I'll tell you mine.

Hiro Pendragon.

Privacy act, schmivacy act. You couldn't even get seated at a bar, let alone pass it.

Even a cursory review of the act reveals that you are, in short, wanking.



If you have any case law which is ACTUALLY on point, feel free to cite it. The problem with US v. Councilman is that it is an example of someone who was engaging in wiretapping outside the scope of his duty as administrator of the email service, as there was no legitimate motivation for what he was doing. Furthermore, he was intercepting every email which passed through his system. In both of these regards, Councilman violated the Wiretap Act. However, this is not relevant to this matter as LL is policing its network as a necessary measure and is doing so only when presented with allegations of wrong-doing.

Am I the only person that finds that one of the funniest phrases in forums EVAH?

If you had read the ECPA, you would know that even an administrator cannot just read another's communication whenever they like.

The case law is on point; interception of private communications. No, it isn't an identicle case to the problem addressed by the initial post, as usual, hence my recomendation that someone with a Real Life with real legal expertise be consulted, rather than a group of forum posters with the notoriety of having so little going on in real life that they've created names for themselves - in a game.

No, they're not. The ToS defines what communications of yours, that go through SL, are "private". 8.2 says that none of them are. If you want secure (or even protected) communications, you should use something outside of SL.

Furthermore, I appreciate the fact that the Lindens would take the time to dig through their logs to investigate an abuse report. I am thankful that they have the capacity and willingness to track down and ban griefers and those who conspire to do so. Personally, I wish it would extend to those who would shield those griefers.

[edited to add]
PS: the link that was posted was not to the ECPA, it was to a judicial ruling referencing it. Additionally, the ECPA only protects communications "that affect interstate or foreign commerce".

Yes, that was a link to a case. Good guess.

Are we all in California? (Other laws also apply, the ECPA was just one example of privacy law.)

Do you practice law in real life as a lawyer or as a judge?

Well?

Sorry Hiro (Can people still call you Hiro?) but your answer just wasn't credible. Your postings seem too much like those of a certain Lestat Furry Tringo Escort I've seen lurking about. Or is that your alt?

Damn, busted!

Oh, my other alts include Philip and Robin Linden, blaze spinnaker, and the entire cast of Happy Days.

All are also dressed in pink?.. sorry sorry sorry.. couldent resist this sorry.... I hide under the pillow now...