Is LL over stepping their power??

I was talking to one of my friends that plays SL and it appears that she is banned because she was accused of solitation to bomb an island. In other words LL was monitoring IM's which in a way is ok but if I'm not mistaken are IM's suppose to be PRIVATE? Well anyways she called LL and they told her that they were monitoring her IM's and that they can't show her the IM's b/c of privacy issue. What I can't understand is for one LL is invading mine and your privacy by monitoring our IM's (I wonder how many LL employees are sitting there reading people's IM's when they are cybering each other and better yet what are they doing while they are reading the cyber IM's?) and if someone is accused of solitation in an IM and that person wants to see the part of section of the IM containing the solitation then why not prove the accused with just that section? Is it really that hard for LL to copy and paste it to the accused? No it's not I mean I keep notecards of all my conversation for my own records just in case something like this happens. Now I know that I may get banned for this topic and that LL will and is monitoring it and that's fine, but for LL to sit there and monitor mine or yours PRIVATE MESSAGES TO OTHER RESIDENTS that is wrong and if i'm not mistaken unlawfull no matter what the TOS says! Yeah I'm all for people's rights. I understand that they are tryin to protect everyone and that's fine I give them props for that but to constantly monitor IM's or chat logs is somewhat unfair. What about the people that have Nazi's signs in the game? Has anything been done to them? NO! What about when a person say in open chat racial slurs is anything done to them? NO! But yet LL is monitoring chat logs and IM's, well it appears that LL isn't doing their job very well if they are letting people get away with racial slurs in open chat in front of 10-20 people. I know what you are going to say next "It's up to all residents to report such actions" well you are right but most people don't want to sit there and sound like a cry baby about such actions b/c everyday in the REAL WORLD we hear and see racial slurs all the time so it no uncommon for it to happen here! Alot of my friends play mafia in the game and it's the other families that want to sit there and act like big bad people (costello's, genovese, DSM just to name a few) by going an attacking sims or islands but when they start to become the targets they want to cry to a Linden and get whoever is after them banned. So once again if LL is monitoring chat logs and IM's and or people's actions why aren't these people being banned or susupended?

Now I know that most may not agree with what I have said and that is YOUR RIGHT and I respect that. But everyone as a Resident needs to stand up and make their voice heard about what rights we all have! So if you are a person that is into cybering remember that someone from LL is sitting there reading it and think what are they doing while they are reading it! Also remember that your "Private Chat" isn't so private if LL employess are sitting there reading it! What happen to our right to Privacy???

You have no rights. None. You agreed to it when you signed up by clicking past the Terms of Service.

Private world = no rights.

LF

Not necessarily true, in the US at least. Even on private networks, the owner of the network and server cannot read other people's private communication, like emails or private messaging, except under a few specific circumstances. It is considered a form of eavesdropping or wiretapping. Check into the TOS and also The Electronic Communications Privacy Act.

If there is not very clear information that all of your communication is going to be read, LL is guilty of a crime, and has admitted it if they sent an email stating that they did so.

I'm sorry I didn't read your whole post, but just an idea, maybe someone reported your friend. If there was an AR, then I believe LL might investigate the logs.


PS. You might want to break up your future posts into paragraphs, it makes it easier to read.

From: Seth Kanahoe

Thank you for spewing sense into this thread.

I doubt this very much. Indeed, Sony Online has probably breached this law hundreds of times with Everquest alone.

Once again, you have no rights on private property except that which the owner of said property deigns to give you. The Constitution applies only to public and government entities.

LF

No, They are reading our IMs. Which is fine with me if that's how people get off, but here's another issue. She couldn't be shown the convo, or told what was in it due to privacy violation. Now, if such a conversation even existed, which it didn't, how is it violating privacy to show her her own conversation? Obviously if she had the convo, she has already seen it.... right?

And on the theory that you have no privacy rights here, again... why couldn't she be shown the supposed conversation? Ig you have no rights, there are no rights to violate by seeing it...

That LL was reading your friend's IMs is true.

That LL was doing so without an abuse report is an assumption, and I think a bad one.

Has your friend considered that someone abuse reported them, and LL *then* checked out the chat logs?

p.s. The paragraph is your friend and mine. I'm not making fun - I'm just asking you to stop making my eyes bleed.

I think you are a bit out of line here myself.

I notice first that you do not deny the offense in the first place (solicitation to bomb a sim), so whatever happens to you is kind of deserved IMO.

I also notice that your main concern seems to be only that someone might be listening to your chat while you are tyrying to "cyber"????

This is all totally selfish stuff.
You dont seem truly concerned about anyones "rights" to me, just your own self.

If you think about it for a sec, you will also see that you are mistaken anyway. There just are not enough Lindens to listen to even a small fraction of the chat that goes on in the world, so they are obviously *not* monitoring everyone's IM's.

Like as not, the Lindens only monitor such a thing when they have a tip that someone is going to do something bad or someone has demonstrated that they are a jerk already.

Your own words indicate that this is so: In this case I would suspect that someone you know has a nuke, and they are monitoring how he/she is going to use it by checking up on this persons contacts and business partners.

If I was a Linden I might do the very same thing.

Someone needs to grow up IMO.
You did a bad thing, you got caught, live with it.

From the TOS:

"8.2 Linden Observation. You acknowledge and agree that Linden , in its sole discretion, may track, record, observe or follow any and all of your interactions within the Service."


That might let LL off the hook. Since it is vague, it might not. Many laws are in force even though someone asks you to sign them away, so a TOS is not the last word no matter what it says. Stating that your actions may be observed may not negate your expectation of privacy in personal communications. You should try asking a lawyer on a site like lawinfo.com.

Ever consider the notion that the person your friend had the IM convo with reported it, or mentioned it to somone to did report it? I doubt they're monitoring everyone's IM chat. It's like these forums, they only scrutinize a post if it was reported.

No.

You need to do a bit more research LF. This relates to my profession, so I am somewhat familiar with this subject. That you have no personal rights or privacy on a private network is absolutely wrong.

Try Googling the privacy act for a start.

Show me precedent in the courts that states that an online service has no legal ability to spy in on your conversations.

LF

How can I deny something that I wasn't apart of to begin with? And as far as me being out of line tell me how? Because I have a freedom or speech on my side here I can speak what I want, so please try to tell me that i'm outta line here? And no I didn't get caught b/c I'm not the one that is banned. And for you to say that i'm just looking out for my right is too funny b/c this doesn't only have to do with me this applies to everyone that actually cares about their rights. it's clear that you don't care and ya know what THAT'S YOUR RIGHT, but as for the people that do care I hope that they take this matter very serious!

And thus, what rights do you have to see anything? You have no rights, ergo LLab has no obligation to show you anything.

LF

Rights rights rights. Rights you don't really have in a private environment. Sorry, but it's true.

LLab can terminate your use of this service for any reason. They can also do whatever they wish to you, as long as it's within the ToS. That includes monitoring conversations.

This isn't to say that LLab is some sort of Gestapo agency waiting to trample on your face while letting in Big Brother... LLab is one of the most progressive online companies I've ever dealt with. That doesn't negate the fact that they can, in fact, do what they want to with their service.

It's their playground, and their ball.

LF

Here's twenty eight thousand references, just for a start:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2B%22email%22+%2Breading+%2Bwiretapping+%2Bprivacy

thanks. I had no idea how to use Google. You're very informative.

Now, can you show me specific precedent that negates the clauses in an online service's ToS that allows them to monitor conversations?

You'll have to be a SMIDGE more specific than 28,000 results. Courts don't like lawyers who just point at Google and go "Look! Right there!"

LF

The twenty eight thousand references referred to this post (some sort of Forum Quote snafu)




http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2B%22email%22+%2Breading+%2Bwiretapping+%2Bprivacy

Once again, you'll have to humor me by being a bit more specific. This is akin to a professor, when asked a question, simply pointing at a pile of Encyclopedias and saying "Well, the answer is obviously in there."

Show me something that negates the ability for a private company to monitor conversations within their private environment. Anything. A court case, a law, some crazy guy with a mask, anything.

LF

1) The law always trumps a TOS when they conflict.

2) You aren't a judge or a lawyer.

3) The Electronic Communications Privacy Act is not hard reading. If you have made it very far in school, you should be able to read and comprehend it.

4) If you need specifics, Google is your friend.

5) I'm not going to do your homework for you.

1) Assuming such law exists.

2) Are you? Also, how do you know I'm not? I could be the Best Judge Evar, in disguise...

3) It's midnight, and I'm not going to read laws that you're referencing.

4) So it is. So it shouldn't be too hard to post some specifics to back up your own claims, eh?

5) I'm not going to spend the next 3 hours reading legalese in reference to a point that you have made. If it's relevent to your argument, post it yourself.

I fail to see what's new about this, honestly. LLab is not the first, indeed, not the only company that does this. Almost every MMORPG has such abilities grafted into their ToS.

And the fact that the quarter-million Everquest players, the 100k+ Galaxies players, the 30k+ planetside players, the ONE POINT FIVE MILLION North American WoW players, and various other playing populations haven't been able to strike out such clauses yet, after 10+ years of MMORPG existence, seems to show that people either a) don't care, or b) don't have the legal authority to overturn such a thing.

The mere fact that this is making such a ruckus shows one how rare such a thing from LLab it is... assuming the claim is true in the first place, which is a whole other sack of worms.

LF

Ok since my friend Aislyn Satriale is currently banned from the Forums and this matter does concern her I have been reading her all the replies and she has asked me to post this for her via yahoo so here is what she wanted to say:

"since i can't get on to say this myself..... 1- i didn't do it, hense my wanting to see the alleged chat. Like i would call and complain knowing they could have a chat log of it. 2- Michael Linden SAID they were reading our IMsm and since i've never been banned/suspended/warned, how am i a 'problem case' to monitor? 3- If i have no rights to privacy, show me my convo. I'm not concerned with the suspension. I'm concerned with someone taking my money every month and accusing me of stuff and me not having the ability to see WHAT i'm being accused of."

LF, US laws do exist that protect privacy in places where "a reasonable amount of privacy is expected" - this is the same law that protects people from spying on dressing rooms, bathrooms, etc.

As far as I know, no one has yet challenged ISP's right to monitor against this law yet, but I'm assuming some day it's coming.

... that makes you an accessory to griefing the forum?

. <~~~ World's tiniest violin.