Government Forum

The griefers will not let us debate this subject in public.

Can we at least have a seperate forum for this?

Yes, Linden wants player governments. Read through their threads. That's why we're debating them.

Just for the record, I am strongly against the vision that Lindens have for player governments. I believe they should be 100% bottom up.

Unfortunately, the idea of people coming together and cooperating under just and fair rules is very exciting.

So I'm caught in the middle. I want a debate but we have griefers on one side and lindens on the other. I think the solution is a seperate forum, where the griefers are going to look pretty darned silly.

Make a group related to government and discuss it within the group forums.

I volunteer the Neualtenburg forum for these discussions in the interim. We are a safe zone for politics both in world and in forum. I'd love to tackle general governmental questions there as well as the city-specific questions.

I do see your point of creating a separate forum category and agree that there should be one.

~Ulrika~

A group forum unfortunately is created and moderated by a user. They are also invisible to users unless they go searching for them.

If we could create forums which weren't, then I'd agree with this idea.

This is also a debate about what Lindens are proposing. For them to propose ideas and then let griefers keep us from debating them is rather unfair.

Shut
The
Fuck
Up

I agree with this idea, it's sorely needed. I think a Linden sponsored forum for government debate is a better idea than a player moderated one however. Mainly just for visibility and parity.

> This is also a debate about what Lindens are proposing. For them to propose ideas and then let griefers keep us from debating them is rather unfair.

This thread sortof reminds me of communism: it'd work if only it wasnt for those damn people

Azelda

blaze and others

You seem not to understand that those of us who oppose any form of resident government/judicial system have as much right to have our say as you do. We are not griefers, we are the majority of residents on the forums with diametrically opposed views to your own.

So if you think by getting a new forum you can all cosily decide between yourselves what the outcome will be, you have another think coming. We will continue to post our views.

Latonia

NO RESIDENT GOVERNMENT IN SL EVER

The truth is that I am against most forms of government myself.

I am however, in favor of players cooperating amongst themselves with agreed upon rules. I call that government, and I'm sure you do to.

Now, the lindens have more ambitous plans. They see 'user councils' and 'community leaders' and 'real estate boards'.

So - the question is? Do we simply grief each other continously about this topic, shut down intelligent debate while the Lindens simply shove this all down our throats?

Or do we take some time to discuss intelligently how it is that the Lindens should and should not go about their plans?

Blaze

Sadly...this is the kind of problem that we face. EVERYONE....pro, anti, neither, couldn't care less...whatever....... gets enraged by comments such as this. ie, you make this statement based on YOUR reading of things....Now take a look at my signature quote. You see the confusion?
This debate will NOT go away until there is a direct lead fro the Lindens.
I am getting more and more angry, watching what appears to be a "poking the hornets nest with pointed stick and stepping back to watch what happens" approach from LL.
We have it in the UK, where politicians "leak" certain proposals to judge public reaction before deciding whether to try and implement.
So what happens, is that a thread starts...either pro....or anti government. Gradually, the passions rise....and suddenly players are at each others throats.
It's ugly....it's dull....it's cruel...and it's UNNCESSARY!
Yes.....I'm firmly against being told by ANY other player what i can and can't do, after I've paid my money to access the GAME... (and at the end of the day, for me, that's what it IS. It's a chosen form of relaxation.) I abide by the ToS........that should be enough.
Equally....others are as vehemently in favour of governance from the players. And EQUALLY, they have as much right to be heard.
BUT.......it's been going on for far too long WITHOUT a clear directive from above.
In the UK, we have had the spectre of joining the euro single currency hanging over our heads for years now. The powers that be will NOT allow a vote on the issue for fear of losing it.
Surely....it is now time for a simple...clear vote to be put to ALL members of SL....(not just the vocal minority of us that haunt these boards).....FROM LL, as to whether we WANT a form of government or not. And then put the whole business to rest......
ie.....pro government wins......... then the process of working out WHAT KIND of government, is addressed.
........no government.........end of flame wars in the forums.
Please........sanity.......prevail!
Seriously fed up now Lindens.

This topic could easily be contained within the Land and Economy forum - they just need to revise the name slightly. It does not warrant a full forum.

For clarification:

Griefers == The other side of the debate.

Siggy,

/120/fc/28439/1.html

Where is the other side of the debate in this? We'll just have to agree to disagree that this is not griefing.

Vixen,

Here is some evidence:

On the subject of player dispute resolution..


On the subject of advisory councils.. (the few representing the many..)



On the subject of 'community leaders'

Robin says:


People judging other people. Some will have more influence than others. Feedback will be 'filtered' through so called 'elite' individuals. Conference calling with the top land owners.

This is not bow-down-before-the-one-you-serve type government, but it never is. It is a few so called elite players are being chosen to represent the majority and have undue influence.

In my opinion this is a terrible mistake and one that they will regret hugely. I would have assumed that LL had some experience in this area. If they did, they'd know that this always ends in tragedy.

But, the fact is, this is happening - and the inability of SLers to address it head on is simply making it happen in such a way that they have no control or feedback on the process.

After all, you really think LL is going to listen to a bunch of raving griefers? I really think not.

This is pure conjecture on your part just because there are dots doesn't necessarily mean they can be connected.

These aren't dots, each statement individually is an example of LL sanctioned player government. Each one is an example of so called elite players having undue influence (well, except for Philips dispute resolution .. hopefully that will be 100% bottom up)

It's like deja vu for me, though. The same cycle, happening over and over again. It's pretty scary actually. Mark my words, this will blow up in their face .. it always has before.

Again Conjecture.

Name the elite players who have undue influence?

Just because LL has had disscusions with 20 land owners about land doesn't mean they have been hand chosen to lead the revolution.

The same cycle happening over and over again? Think not ...this is just you overreacting to LL trying to gauge how its business is doing and where they can improve.

Viola

I so agree with your post. So right about British government as well .

It's about time LL stopped playing games. Tell us what you want and we will tell you whether we want it or not. If we don't but you are determined to go ahead then some of us will walk away. So be it. We pay to be in SL, but if you don't want our money we shall take it elsewhere.

Latonia

Talen,



If anyone can join, why not just use the economy forum?

Some could look at the constant new threads about 'government' a form of griefing in itself.

Be mature now blaze...

what you have quoted was an excerpt of a town hall meeting where a resident asked if there should be an advisory board set up to discuss stipends...and Phillip agreed it was a good idea. That is no proof of the statements you have been making.

You have dicerned from just one town hall that LL is setting up a player run government run by the player elite. Town hall meetings brig up all kinds of issues that may never come to pass...you ststing that the sky is falling doesn't make it so.

*edited* If your going to say things in a public forum please have balls to leave your statements whole or note your edits.

Ugh, someone please make it go away ... Put it in the economy forum or something ...

Talen,

Yeah, I ripped that out after I re-read it. It wasn't really all that nice.

Yes, it hopefully won't come to pass. However, there was a bunch of other quotes that I didn't have time to pull up about councils and what not, which are pointing to the same thing.

Maybe I could dial back the sky is falling attitude a bit, but it's just I have seen this so many times and in exactly the same manner.

It always starts with a few players given the ear of the people in charge.

The next step *always* is some person who complains that something happened to them unjustly because these people are 'favored'. For example, it will probably be someone who thinks they get banned because they pissed off someone on an advisory board.

And then person becomes a dedicated griefer because they have a victim complex who thinks they are a target of a conspiracy .. and in a way they are. It's not a very conscious well organised conspiracy, of course, but its there.

The way to avoid this is simple. Just keep a firewall between LL and Players. They've been doing it for the longest time and they should keep it that way.

Blaze I understand where you're coming from but you have to understand LL is doing something that has never been done before. The population is growing by leaps and bounds...in the Beta days LL had its finger firmly on the pulse of the populace...they knew everyone. Now they are woefully outnumbered and need assistance.

Phillip and crew want to see the metaverse work and for it to be a true metaverse the populace has to take responsibilty as well. As players we already perform in certain ways that bring about the question of should the inmates have say in the asylum.

A lot of player conflict is already resolved by players themselves in world and through the forums....sometimes its not pretty but its being done. The players themselves are setting up SL in ways no one ever believed could happen. We have GOM a player run money exchange, we have an offline good site now, and who knows what players will provide in the future.

Why did you ignore Vixen's pointing out Robin's quote in her signature line Blaze? This is why I get confused and honestly, frustrated, when dealing with you. You are crying *griefer* endlessly yet you simply choose to ignore a lot of points such as Vixen's. What that begets is more people than just myself getting frustrated, hence the *griefing*. You are almost as confusing as the Linden's are on this issue. Let me state it again; we are getting mixed signals and inconsistent opinions from within Linden Lab itself concerning this issue. Will you acknowledge that? Or will you just hold onto Phillip's words like they are the last blade of grass on earth?