Government Forum

Still thinking blaze == Philip

"I agree with this idea, it's sorely needed. I think a Linden sponsored forum for government debate is a better idea than a player moderated one however. Mainly just for visibility and parity."

I agree I think a gov't forum is needed. I also agree with what Vixen said we need to determine if a gov't is wanted or not before we start talking about the pros and cons of a gov't.

A forum is a step in the right direction but as I have mentioned before only 10 % of SL even read the forums.

I think this would be an excellent topic for an in world debate.

Cat

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Griefing or constructive engagement?

You decide.

With all due respect, highlighting and dwelling solely the negative somewhat marginalizes the rest of the content. There are certain members of the community I have on ignore because they bug me. Use the tools at hand. For now, at least, they are our self government.

LOL thats copyright infringement, hope Fox News doesn't read that .

You would surely be welcome in this new forum.

It's the STFU's and blatant hijacking that are the problem, not the sort of down-to-earth perspective that you have always brought. Well, except for an occasional bout of capital letters!

The last thing I think we should do is jump without looking first.

We're not even clear on the need yet. Putting specific solutions in place is way premature; but so is deciding that there's nothing better than what we have now. Let's talk about it for a year or two. But yes; set aside a forum so that people who aren't interested don't have to be tempted to click on the posts.

Right again.

Apparently, there is this push to 'have' a government. So yes, we need a clear vote having ALL residents involved whether or not they want it. You afraid the result is going to be what we all expect?

You do realize that the STFU was powerless until you empowered it by engaging it don't you?

Do you remember in grade school, those kids who were griefers and some folks may have said *ignore them, a response is what they want, responding to their insults will only make them happy and cause them to do it more*?

I erased the last paragraph here, no need for it after your last two points.

I think too much is read into Robin's quote; but a deeper discussion would be off-topic here. I will take it up when there is a forum where such a discussion is appropriate and would be tolerated by a majority of the people reading it.

And it surely is not reading too much into Philip's words to take them permission (or even encouragement) to raise relevant questions here in the forums.

So basically, until you get what you want you refuse to debate it. Until it happens. Thank you for shedding some light on this.

And are you afraid that if we first have some time to clarify our thinking, develop positions and present them here that the result will somehow be different? Or that if it were it would represent some kind of miscarriage of justice?

I just didn't think the discussion would be welcome or on-topic. Do you disagree?

My point is clear without the side-trip: even if you interpret Philip's statements as ambiguous, they clearly point toward an important issue in SL and encourage discussion. The discussions aren't welcome in the general forum. Why not have a forum dedicated to this purpose?

And I'm not sure what your position is on the matter.

There goes the neighborhood ...

Isn't that what we've been discussing? If people wish to join your group than so be it. I'm not here to enforce whether or not to go one way or another, What I'm here defending is the growing 'minority group' trying to push agendas onto others who do NOT want it. I can see clearly what this 'minority group' is trying to accomplish. I won't abide by it. However, it can be openly debated.

The idea's of the group I'm seeing is this: It's simply trying to become LL's Police force regarding disputes and whatever else control you can snag. Now tell me where I'm wrong in seeing that? We have discussed the TOS, and the CS many many times, and simply as an old timer here in Second Life, it's been either abide by those, or be banned, no questions asked. What I do not understand why some people have a hard time seeing this? It's as simple as reading it through and through seeing what's accepted and whats not. And why is it such a hard concept for people to say *I* need this? No I do not. Yet you're insisting that I do.

The point I was trying to make Almerea....and KEEP coming back to, is that with all of the to'ing and fro'ing in these forums, and the heated arguements they are stirring, we NEED a clear, unambiguous lead from LL.

We have conflicting views from what we read...that is obvious. *I* tend to think that Robin's quote is simple and straightforward...... ie player government will not be a neccessity or requirement of MY Second Life experience.
Blaze reads into Phillip's comments that THAT is where the Lindens are headed.
If the Lindens would simply make a statement along the lines of: "having watched the various debates in the forums over the past few months......many of them heated..... we feel it is time to explain OUR viewpoint on where we are headed."

THEN......if they DO insist that they want a player led "government" (and I use the word loosely, as it can take many forms)....I for one would appreciate a vote inworld of whether their paying customers WANT the same.
Or, they may opt for the status quo to remain, and as their player base expands...and with it, their revenue stream, then they take on more staff to cope.
The base question remains....not "what form should a player run model take....but whether there is a true NEED for such. Or whether it simply appeals to certain people, and not to others.

Until then....we will continue arguing and finger pointing.....and all the while at the top of Olympus, the LinGods will nod, and smile at the antics of their "children".
It's not too much to ask is it?...... Clarity on the issue........ where the Lindens stand.
It's like the whole arguement about who "You're So Vain" was written about. Carly Simon could put the question to rest in a second.The Lindens can do the same here.
We've debated at GREAT length the need\no need for change.
If it's NOT coming....then we can say goodbye to these threads and get on with the IMPORTANT SL questions........such as, when the technical side of things will change, and in what sense...and whether it will be in terms of graphics...or speed......etc etc.
As usual....my tuppence ha'penny.

I think a seperate forum would be nice.

I've seen a lot of these threads get posted and the discussion usually ends up in wether or not one is allowed to discuss it period in a public forum -- it hardly becomes a discussion about governance at all. Minority idea or not, it's not fair to say it's not appropriate to discuss it.

However, if it will help the "majority" that feels it's not appropriate to even discuss an unpopular topic in an open public forum, what's wrong with having a seperate forum altogether?

Im not a "griefer", there is a point to my post. Im tired of this bullshit, there will never be a goverment ruling over all of second life, so shut the hell up. Have fun!

If I'm not mistaken.. we have that already . It's called group forums.

Well perhaps we'll have to wait for more clarity from LL, but to me it sounds like a topic that should be a little more public in nature.

No offense, but tucking it away in the group forums sounds like a, "sit at the back of the bus," solution if you catch my drift.

I really don't want to turn this into a subject of debate because that is my point -- it's perfectly acceptable to discuss public matters in a public forum. Just because a particular idea is not popular doesn't mean it can't be discussed publicly and putting the discussion in group forums suggests segregation from the public.

Is this what is being suggested?

I suggest a seperate but public forum which will keep the discussion public but will allow you to not have to look at it if you don't want to. What other suggestions would you have that could benefit both groups: one that would allow people to keep the matter public and open for discussion without obfuscating or making it any less public and open than anything else that may be discussed by residents of SL?

Ryen, I know you're not, and I know you well enough from these forums to know you were making a point. I was simply allowing Almarea her argument so I could make a point to the effect of: if you are upset with an individual's posts, you have options, and the best one is probably not to endlessly decry it and project it onto the rest of the posters.

It reminds me of online role-playing games where hard core role-players complain about the folks who refuse to role-play. At some point they become just as, if not more annoying than that which they are railing against, especially when they have tools at their disposal to deal with it.

Nolan, I was targeting blaze, not you

This same thing happened when we had an endless stream of economics posts. Why is it this time around being "sat at the back of the bus"? No one cried foul then, so I guess personal interest is superceding the good of all. By *the good of all I mean*; what good does it do if, as some people are claiming, these things inevitably turn into flamefests, whoever's fault that is?

I think it's pretty clear why the pro government people want self government, they believe that LL resources will be overwhelmed by the increasing volume of subscribers, therefore some type of self government is needed. The folks against it do not agree. How long shall we go on about this? A seperate forum allows the folks who would now like to discuss the intricacies of said possible government in peace. The fact that people are lamenting this idea really speaks for what I believe to be the fact they just want it in the headlines every single day. For what reasons I can only guess. How would you feel if everyday you picked up your local paper, the exact same thing was being presented over and over even though the powers that be have niether sanctioned nor shot down the notion?

The reasons for wanting a seperate forum for government discussion are myriad and not so sinister as some folks appear to think. Most people that regulary particpate in the forums have voted, in multiple polls, stated their opinions at least once, and until we get some type of solid cues from LL, what is wrong with giving it it's own place? The fact that certain people are not getting the results and or answers they want seems to be driving them to want to endlessly debate something which at this point in time we have no power over.