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Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 12:45
I posted this in this thread too
http://supreme.justia.com/us/442/735/case.html
From: A Taste of the Case
U.S. Supreme Court

SMITH v. MARYLAND, 442 U.S. 735 (1979)

442 U.S. 735 SMITH v. MARYLAND.
CERTIORARI TO THE COURT OF APPEALS OF MARYLAND.

No. 78-5374.

Argued March 28, 1979.
Decided June 20, 1979.




The telephone company, at police request, installed at its central offices a pen register to record the numbers dialed from the telephone at petitioner's home. Prior to his robbery trial, petitioner moved to suppress "all fruits derived from" the pen register. The Maryland trial court denied this motion, holding that the warrantless installation of the pen register did not violate the Fourth Amendment. Petitioner was convicted, and the Maryland Court of Appeals affirmed.

Held:

The installation and use of the pen register was not a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, and hence no warrant was required. Pp. 739-746.



    (a) Application of the Fourth Amendment depends on whether the person invoking its protection can claim a "legitimate expectation of privacy" that has been invaded by government action. This inquiry normally embraces two questions: first, whether the individual has exhibited an actual (subjective) expectation of privacy; and second, whether his expectation is one that society is prepared to recognize as "reasonable." Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347. Pp. 739-741.


    (b) Petitioner in all probability entertained no actual expectation of privacy in the phone numbers he dialed, and even if he did, his expectation was not "legitimate." First, it is doubtful that telephone users in general have any expectation of privacy regarding the numbers they dial, since they typically know that they must convey phone numbers to the telephone company and that the company has facilities for recording this information and does in fact record it for various legitimate business purposes. And petitioner did not demonstrate an expectation of privacy merely by using his home phone rather than some other phone, since his conduct, although perhaps calculated to keep the contents of his conversation private, was not calculated to preserve the privacy of the number he dialed. Second, even if petitioner did harbor some subjective expectation of privacy, this expectation was not one that society is prepared to recognize as "reasonable." When petitioner voluntarily conveyed numerical information to the phone company and "exposed" that information to its equipment in the normal course of business, he assumed the risk that the company would reveal the information Page 442 U.S. 735, 736

    to the police, cf. United States v. Miller, 425 U.S. 435. Pp. 741-746.


283 Md. 156, 389 A. 2d 858, affirmed. BLACKMUN, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which BURGER, C. J., and WHITE, REHNQUIST, and STEVENS, JJ., joined. STEWART, J., post, p. 746, and MARSHALL, J., post, p. 748, filed dissenting opinions, in which BRENNAN, J., joined. POWELL, J., took no part in the consideration or decision of the case.

Howard L. Cardin argued the cause for petitioner. With him on the brief was James J. Gitomer.

Stephen H. Sachs, Attorney General of Maryland, argued the cause for respondent. With him on the brief were George A. Nilson, Deputy Attorney General, and Deborah K. Handel and Stephen B. Caplis, Assistant Attorneys General.

MR. JUSTICE BLACKMUN delivered the opinion of the Court.

This case presents the question whether the installation and use of a pen register[Footnote 1] constitutes a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment,[Footnote 2] made applicable to the States through the Fourteenth Amendment. Mapp v. Ohio, 367 U.S. 643 (1961).

Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
05-13-2006 13:29
From: Champie Jack
Refer to the article in the USAToday that I linked.

Your claim of FACT is actually the debate that is being waged. Your claim of ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that there is no constitutional authority iis interesting. Please tell us how you know this yet Lawyers, Intelligence experts, politicians, journalists, and people all over the world continue to debate the legalities of the issue.

IF YOU KNOW, TELLS US IN AS MUCH DETAIL PLEASE.



name these lawyers, Intelligence experts, politicians and journalists.

Your President is a criminal and belongs in an orange jumpsuit.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
05-13-2006 13:31
From: Champie Jack
It has nothing to do with FISA, it has to do with your claim that the Fourth Amendment protects you from the NSA program of retrieving phone records



Why do you hate your freedoms?
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Paolo Portocarrero
Puritanical Hedonist
Join date: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 2,393
05-13-2006 13:35
From: Champie Jack
If you think I have violated your sacred right to forum niceties then please report me to the RESMODS.

Go have a margarita or somethin'.
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Champie Jack
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Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 14:22
From: Kendra Bancroft
name these lawyers, Intelligence experts, politicians and journalists.

Your President is a criminal and belongs in an orange jumpsuit.


I'm not the one making the claim that the NSA program is illegal! You have made tha claim.

When you use the Fourth Amendment as supporting evidence of your claim, I pointed out that I understand the issue differently becasue of my reading of the Smith v Maryland Supreme Court Case.

So, I ask again, do you insist that the NSA program is illegal because of the FOURTH Amendment, or do you have other supporting information. If you have something else to add or refute, then please detail your case.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 14:23
From: Paolo Portocarrero
Go have a margarita or somethin'.


That's not bad advice.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 14:25
From: Kendra Bancroft
name these lawyers, Intelligence experts, politicians and journalists.

Your President is a criminal and belongs in an orange jumpsuit.


I'm asking you how you know it is ILLEGAL? I'm sitting here waiting for a good argument. I've told you everything I know and I conceed that there is an ongoing debate.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 14:26
From: Kendra Bancroft
Why do you hate your freedoms?


I'm not sure how you came to suspect that I hate my freedoms. Care to clarify what makes you believe that I might hate my freedoms?
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 14:42
From: Joy Honey
Champie, will you please tell us why you think it is ok for the President to disobey laws that he signs?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/04/30/bush_challenges_hundreds_of_laws/


well, the article cites the reason Bush thinks it is ok:
From: someone
In many cases, he is simply asserting his belief that a certain requirement encroaches on presidential power.


Perhaps we should start a thread about Presidential powers. I'll admit that I am not knowledgable enough to answer your question, but if you read the article, the author presents some arguments (other peoples views, not the authors) to your question.

I think a good discussion about PRESIDENTIAL POWERS among knowledgable people would be worthwhile. Unfortunately, these forums are not well suited for informed debate.

It is useful to know that your point of view is shaped by concerns about the kind of activity that is presented in the article
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
05-13-2006 15:14
From: Champie Jack
I'm asking you how you know it is ILLEGAL? I'm sitting here waiting for a good argument. I've told you everything I know and I conceed that there is an ongoing debate.



He didn't get warrants. Is that really so hard to wrap your brain around??
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
05-13-2006 15:15
From: Champie Jack
I'm not sure how you came to suspect that I hate my freedoms. Care to clarify what makes you believe that I might hate my freedoms?



Because you argue against retaining them every chance ya get.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
05-13-2006 15:16
From: Champie Jack
well, the article cites the reason Bush thinks it is ok:


Perhaps we should start a thread about Presidential powers. I'll admit that I am not knowledgable enough to answer your question, but if you read the article, the author presents some arguments (other peoples views, not the authors) to your question.

I think a good discussion about PRESIDENTIAL POWERS among knowledgable people would be worthwhile. Unfortunately, these forums are not well suited for informed debate.

It is useful to know that your point of view is shaped by concerns about the kind of activity that is presented in the article


Nixon made the same argument. It didn't wash then. It won't wash now.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
05-13-2006 15:18
From: Champie Jack
I'm not the one making the claim that the NSA program is illegal! You have made tha claim.

When you use the Fourth Amendment as supporting evidence of your claim, I pointed out that I understand the issue differently becasue of my reading of the Smith v Maryland Supreme Court Case.

So, I ask again, do you insist that the NSA program is illegal because of the FOURTH Amendment, or do you have other supporting information. If you have something else to add or refute, then please detail your case.



Because the Supreme Court ruling you cite has nothing to do with this.

He didn't get warrants. He broke the law. This is not rocket science.
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Joy Honey
Not just another dumass
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 3,751
05-13-2006 15:52
From: Champie Jack
well, the article cites the reason Bush thinks it is ok:



Nice try, but I asked why you think it's ok for him to do so. Bush thinking it's ok is not a reason. In my opinion (and in the opinion of many others) Bush's reasoning is an over-assertion of Presidential power. This is why the Congress and Supreme Court exist (see also checks and balances).
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Reality continues to ruin my life. - Calvin

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Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 15:56
From: Champie Jack
well, the article cites the reason Bush thinks it is ok:


Perhaps we should start a thread about Presidential powers. I'll admit that I am not knowledgable enough to answer your question, but if you read the article, the author presents some arguments (other peoples views, not the authors) to your question.

I think a good discussion about PRESIDENTIAL POWERS among knowledgable people would be worthwhile. Unfortunately, these forums are not well suited for informed debate.

It is useful to know that your point of view is shaped by concerns about the kind of activity that is presented in the article


Joy, I think I pretty clearly admitted that I can't answer the question in a satisfactory way. That is why I suggested a thread about Presidental Power.
Joy Honey
Not just another dumass
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 3,751
05-13-2006 15:59
From: Champie Jack
Joy, I think I pretty clearly admitted that I can't answer the question in a satisfactory way. That is why I suggested a thread about Presidental Power.


Just wanted an opinion that was all your own. :)
_____________________
Reality continues to ruin my life. - Calvin

You have delighted us long enough. - Jane Austen

Sometimes I need what only you can provide: your absence. - Ashleigh Brilliant
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
05-13-2006 16:00
From: Joy Honey
Just wanted an opinion that was all your own. :)



He has to clear it through Limbaugh first, Joy --give him until Monday.
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Champie Jack
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Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 16:11
From: Kendra Bancroft
He has to clear it through Limbaugh first, Joy --give him until Monday.


No, I can't answer the question because the issue of Presidential Powers is very complex. There are a variety of legislative forces all working simultaneously. If you look at the NSA wiretapping case, there are a number of agencies and laws and constitutional considerations all in play.

Presidential Powers is not an easy question, yet it is at the heart of all the debates raging today.

If anyone can offer some guidance or lessons on how to approach the subject, I would appreciate it.
Joy Honey
Not just another dumass
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 3,751
05-13-2006 16:33
From: Champie Jack
No, I can't answer the question because the issue of Presidential Powers is very complex. There are a variety of legislative forces all working simultaneously. If you look at the NSA wiretapping case, there are a number of agencies and laws and constitutional considerations all in play.

Presidential Powers is not an easy question, yet it is at the heart of all the debates raging today.

If anyone can offer some guidance or lessons on how to approach the subject, I would appreciate it.


Here are a few links for you...

http://www.presidentsusa.net/presidential_powers.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_of_the_President_of_the_United_States

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article02/
_____________________
Reality continues to ruin my life. - Calvin

You have delighted us long enough. - Jane Austen

Sometimes I need what only you can provide: your absence. - Ashleigh Brilliant
Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
05-13-2006 22:23
From: Champie Jack
If anyone can offer some guidance or lessons on how to approach the subject, I would appreciate it.

I'd like to see a formal investigation to determine what exactly is happening and if warrented proper legal action.
Right now I just see speculation and assertions of right/wrong from either side but no clear remedy.
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From: Bud
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
Noh Rinkitink
Just some Nohbody
Join date: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 572
05-13-2006 22:38
A thought occurred to me while at work today.

For the sake of argument, let's say that there was an ultimately successful movement to impeach and convict (two totally seperate stages) Bush Jr. Would it make any of you who've voiced dislike of the current president any happier to have Cheney in office, as next in line in presidential succession (like Ford was for Nixon, when the latter resigned in 1974)?

It's possible I'm just missing it, but it does seem to be something that doesn't get much discussion by those believing Bush has committed impeachable offenses.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 22:39
From: Zuzu Fassbinder
I'd like to see a formal investigation to determine what exactly is happening and if warrented proper legal action.
Right now I just see speculation and assertions of right/wrong from either side but no clear remedy.


let's be fair. What you will read in this forum is an original post to discuss the presendt's poll numbers.

Then we heard:
DICTATOR

Then i called that jackassery in an otherwise reasonable thread.

Then we got:
WAG THE DOG

Then Eisman tried to act like I was asshurt by the thread and implied I was a whiney Rep who needs Lindy poo to save him.

Then we got a couple:
CRIMINAL

And a:
LIMBAUGH

The whole time I presented a few links and asked questions about HOW, and WHY folks are so certain that the activities of the NSA are illegal.

Only at one point did I respond why I thought they may be illegal, yet I conceeede that the debate was ongoing, that the issue of PRESIDENTIAL POWERS was complex, not easy to discuss in these forums (can you see why?) and not very well understood.

there has been plenty of reasonableness in this thread despite some of the jackassery. I hope you recognize who the tolorant and intolorant are.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 22:44
Best of luck to everyone. You won't have to tolorate me in this thread or any of the other 4 or so threads that I've been engaged in this weekend.

It would be nice if someone involved in one of those threads actually defended me from the racist and xenophobe charge levelled against me in the immigration thread. But, I can't let Eisman see me cry :(
Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
05-13-2006 23:03
From: Champie Jack
let's be fair.

I was offering my suggestion to your query of how the subject the wiretapping and other suspicious activities under discussion should be addressed.

My use of "either side" was meant to refer to the wider discussion including posturing by the Dems and damage control from the White House.

From: Champie Jack
I hope you recognize who the tolorant and intolorant are.

I see much more than just tolerance/intolerance in this thread. There has been some good discussion, but also a lot of jibber jabber. I'll let everyone form their own opinion with regard to the attitudes and behaviors of posters in the thread.
_____________________
From: Bud
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-13-2006 23:43
From: Zuzu Fassbinder
I was offering my suggestion to your query of how the subject the wiretapping and other suspicious activities under discussion should be addressed.

My use of "either side" was meant to refer to the wider discussion including posturing by the Dems and damage control from the White House.


Ah, yes. I have a bit of tunnel vision and I'm much more on the defensive since I was called a racist and xenophobe in the immigration thread. I interpreted your remarks incorrectly. Thanks for straightening me out.
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