Jakes Guide to being a Guy.

You are right. I wish I had your eloquence. And I long ago decided that sexual preference (as if you chose to be gay..yeah right) was simply not a valid point of distiction between men. I don't say this to suggest that the homesexual community is any less important than the hetero sexual community, just that I gay guys as just regular guys who happen to like men. I guess I just think we have a lot more in common as guys than we do differences as striaght or gay.

So I guess my thought on this is that a guy should be confident in who he is and should neither threatened by the sexuality of others, nor judgemental of it.

Look, I do realize what an incredible, back-breaking, knickers-twisting, almost inutterably excruciating pain it is to have to pull one's own chair away from a table prior to sitting in that chair, and I appreciate so much the very idea, even, that another human being would be so considerate to brave this hardship so that my own efforts could be reserved for loftier goals ... but I'd rather have to scale the north face of K-2 with my hands covered in Crisco (and several rabid weasels chewing their way through my chest) than to breathe the same air as the sort of guys that would operate at "standards" no more demanding than what Jake is suggesting in this thread.

Did somebody "throw somebody over" for Tom Selleck or Johnny Depp or Brad Pitt or, more precisely, men who act like you or the general public only imagine those men act? Well, boo hoo hoo. Human beings are humans beings, and while it may be rough being a man in this modern world, y'all can cry me a fucking river if it's too much to bear, especially if you'd resort to these, ugh, tactics in the hopes of pleasing some generalized, objectified Lady Fair instead of just being true to yourself and accepting whatever individual person is attracted by those attributes. (Because, believe me, there's someone for everyone, it seems, even when the attractions are of a sort that boggle my jaded mind. I mean, like, ew.)

Even though there are men that I love, after reading this thread I am again reminded why (aside from reasons outside the comparative framework) I much prefer the company of women.

Quick! Someone call the Girl Police and file a report!

First of all these are not entirel;y things we do to please a woman. If that were the case I would have taken an entirely different tact. These are things that we should do because we are guys. We learn and know this stuff first and foremost for ourselves. But culitvating things like decency and curtesy and knowing how to make a good martini may be relics of a bygone era, but they also add a touch of the dashing. Noone has to give up the sense of personal self to add a littel refinement to their lives.

Well, when you start out with the "care" men should provide for women, you kinda set the patronizing tone right there.

And anyway, Jake, if these things that are the minimum of what a guy should do are worth noting, why wouldn't they also be worth noting for women? Why are you gearing your assertions toward guys in particular? Are you suggesting that women shouldn't be familiar with poetry, the way you think men should? Or are you assuming that women are already --- like, what, just naturally, like it's a chromosomal sort of thing --- familiar with poetry?

Not to mention martinis and origami and lumber chopping and C++ and flower arranging and how to properly RSVP a wedding announcement. Why make differing, gender-specific standards about those and, eventually, everything else in the world?

I like you, Jake, FWIW to you, and I'm glad that we know each other inworld, and I think this is some lame kinda thread going here.

Memory,

it's not about back breaking effort; it's about courtesy.
Apparently these things are not of concern to you.
That's fine.

In which case, why are you even commenting in this thread??
Why not go start a thread on how you think women should behave?
The two detractors in this thread, being women who prefer the company of women, are not even affected by Jake's suggestions except, perhaps, tangentially.
Why does how guys behave even impose on you?
Go back to your rabid weasel laden, Crisco-gripped mountain climbing and leave us alone to discuss how men in today's society can reclaim a little courtesy and grace.

This is for guys because I am a guy. I wish the thread by design to be about guys. I say nothing about women because I am not a woman.

Yes I know in someways its a bit oldfashioned. Hell it may be sexist in some ways. Yes I think there is a certain level of decency that men should conduct themselves towards women. This is entirely independent of what a woman, or any woman is capable of. Its alot more about respect and deceny than gender politics. Its not about proving something to the world, or about saying that women can't fucntion without men.

I am sure you can pull your chair out from a table, and hold the door open, and don't need me to stand wha you come back from the table. But what then is wrong with saying that I should hold the door open for you, thant I should close the car door for you, and that I should stand when you come to the table? Do you need these things? No. But they are touches of class. I don't think adopting certain customes from a bygone era needs to mean acceptance of all the attitudes towards gender roles that the prior era had.

Well, it COULD be a very funny thread, if people would lighten up a little.

Out of curiousity, would Dianne and Memory mind giving a quick description of a positive male figure in their life?

*Leaves work to go off in search of the perfect martini, or at least some SC*

Shouldn't a man's conduct be aimed at making all those around him feel safe? Not just women, but other men too? And shouldn't everyone's conduct, men's and women's, be aimed that way when children are involved?

As a gay guy, the big strong man who will protect me thing can be pretty appealing. But I want to be the big strong guy too.

I have to say, though, you were right on about Martinis.

As long as it isn't that goddamned poem, Red Wheelbarrow, by william carlos willams

I suppose that we should move out of the realm of gender politics for a post or two, and get back to some more practical discussion.
I came across this list somewhere, I wish I could credit it properly, but here are eight things a guy should know how to do. Its not comprehensive, but it is a good start:

1. Tie a tie on someone else. This includes bowties for a tuxedo (you do own a tuxedo don't you? If not, think about it).

2. Cook a meal from scratch in your own kitchen. Even better, be able to cook a meal fron scratch in someone elses kitchen. Emril returne cooking to the realm of the guy-and not just grilling burgers either.

3. Swim. I lived on a pacific island adn was astounded by the number of people that cannot swim.

4. Change a Diaper. Learn this before you have kids of your own. Yes its gross and will make you want to wretch byt why should women have all the fun?

5. Console someone. Compassion and empathy are not things that should only come out in bars after the yankees win the world series.

6. Haggle prices. At a flea market, at a car dealer, with any contractor, or at the souk in Tangier (and learn what a souk is -thats what ask jake anything is for.)

7. Please someone without needing a mattress. I never was sure exactly what was meant by the original. I suppose it mean being able to offer kindness and attention to your lover in situations that are not erotic. Of course it could mean to take your lover on the kitchen table. But it is good general advice.

8. Keep a secret. Like this needs much explantion. Discretion is as important a virtue as honesty.

I think what he meant was that today, most men don't know any poetry, and they should. If you wrote a piece about what women should know, and included how to fix a tire, I wouldn't take it to mean that all men know how to fix a tire, just that you thought it was important for women to know that. He was trying to break a sexual stereotype, that poetry is for girls, by saying guys should be more culturally well rounded. It's no more offensive than when we are told girls should be encouraged to study math or science. That doesn't mean that all boys are math whizzes. But it does point out the current imbalance in who studies math and who doesn't.

Don't forget:

- burp
- fart
- scratch your ass
- reposition your genitalia
- always sniff your finger after these two

There is wisdom in this. It is a well added addendum thank you.

But also I think, even in our enlightened era of gender equality, there are some expereiences that are viscerally different for a woman than a man-like entring a chatroom on AOL (lol). I think that as guys we should be responsible to understand what these experiences are and be sensitve to them.

LoL if you can pull these off with class and style, you are a master. I am laughting trying to imagine Cary Grant doing this.

Okay, I have a suggestion for women.

Don't play the hysterical liberal female card on threads that were meant for fun. Start a new thread if you want to engage in serious discussion. I did.

I have lurked long enough today on this thread and wanted to throw in my two cents .
I am a self employed, independent woman. I pay my own bills, run a successful company, have my own place, etc. That being said, I do not find one damned thing wrong with a man that shows a woman respect by doing simple things (opening doors, pulling out her chair, standing up as she leaves and comes back). It amazes me when women get offended by these actions. It isn't as though he is expecting you to be June Cleaver on "Leave it to Beaver"! We live in a very different time and unfortunately a lot of men (and women too) have lost their manners. These simple things, which so many seem to be taking offense to, are manners, decency and respect. Hell I even like it when a man that takes me out to dinner asks me what I would like to have and then orders for the both of us when the waiter/waitress comes to take the order. I guess I am old fashoined as well. But I expect a man to be a certain way. I truly relish when I go out with one that treats me with respect and decency. Men like this are few and far between. Nothing makes me cringe more to be out with a man that is dressed like he is going on a construction site at a five star restaurant and hearing "you aren't that hungry are you?".

What? Those 18 words get me hot. Plath, too.

Jake, you know I love you. Aimee drew a map giving away privileged 'girl information' and the key to the super-uper-duper secret girl code. Our work is done here, but our mysteriousness guise is totally blown.

A very wise man once said to me, "let someone love you for what you do in the world. There is a person who loves what you do."

Dearest, dearest Jake, that appears to be the answer.

"wack-a-do, wack-a-do, wack-a-do" --Bob McAllister

Its not a gender issue really. I agree its the job of a partner to make his/her loved one feel secure and safe emotionally and physically. Its called nurturing. What the hell is so offensive about that concept?

Its remarkable that a thoughtful post that really centers around caring for a loved one can elicit such cynicism.

I love a strong man. All of it, the deep voice, the strong body, the romancing, the restrained aggression, the entire masculine persona and charisma TURNS ME ON. Does that compromise my feminity or suggest I an betraying the great cause of being a femininst? HELL NO.

My independence, my intelligence, my professional career are as much a turn on to my man as his masculimity is to me. I see my job, my responsibility, in my relationships to be that of nurturning, caring, the lioness at the gate protecting my turf and my man.

What woman would really resent being with a partner like Jake, one who wants to know her, know her intimately, physicially, mentally, and to please her, protect her. I take nurturing and caring any day and cant understand any woman who feels she is not entitled to that. For me its a minimum requirement in a relationship. Its my job, my responsibility to make my guy feel safe and loved, and the way I see it, its job to reciprocate.

Yes rub my back, rub me all over as a matter of fact, hold your arm around me in a movie.. I want it all. Male, female, straight, gay... dont we all want that really...

What Jake is talking about is accepting responsibility for the nurturing of your partner. Who wants a narcissist who wont try to meet the needs of his/her partner. Women with women are as equally entitled to nurturing in the relationship as are men with men, and men with women.

We all see the world from our own persepctive and experience. Because Jake states the case from his perspective doesnt mean he owns these broader concepts. If he presumed to speak for women people would jump on his ass for that, so he speaks for himself. I happen to love what he said and agree with him.

Try what Jake advises, and you might find you get what you give, so relax and enjoy it.

Its not a gender issue really. I agree its the job of a partner to make his/her loved one feel secure and safe emotionally and physically. Its called nurturing. What the hell is so offensive about that concept?

Its remarkable that a thoughtful post that really centers around caring for a loved one can elicit such cynicism.

I love a strong man. All of it, the deep voice, the strong body, the romancing, the restrained aggression, the entire masculine persona and charisma TURNS ME ON. Does that compromise my feminity or suggest I an betraying the great cause of being a femininst? HELL NO.

My independence, my intelligence, my professional career are as much a turn on to my man as his masculimity is to me. I see my job, my responsibility, in my relationships to be that of nurturning, caring, the lioness at the gate protecting my turf and my man.

What woman would really resent being with a partner like Jake, one who wants to know her, know her intimately, physicially, mentally, and to please her, protect her. I take nurturing and caring any day and cant understand any woman who feels she is not entitled to that. For me its a minimum requirement in a relationship. Its my job, my responsibility to make my guy feel safe and loved, and the way I see it, its job to reciprocate.

Yes rub my back, rub me all over as a matter of fact, hold your arm around me in a movie.. I want it all. Male, female, straight, gay... dont we all want that really...

What Jake is talking about is accepting responsibility for the nurturing of your partner. Who wants a narcissist who wont try to meet the needs of his/her partner. Women with women are as equally entitled to nurturing in the relationship as are men with men, and men with women.

We all see the world from our own persepctive and experience. Because Jake states the case from his perspective doesnt mean he owns these broader concepts. If he presumed to speak for women people would jump on his ass for that, so he speaks for himself. I happen to love what he said and agree with him.

My man deserves it from me and I deserve it from him. Try what Jake advises, and you might find you get what you give, so relax and enjoy it.

I am pretty sure Jake wrote his posts for me so dont get upset with him.

Jake can nature meas a man anytime he wants. I want to feel safe so you can walk on the side next to the curb so I wont ffall into the street. Then you can gen get wet when the cars speed by and splash water from the puddles.

I dont feel safe unless I have 2 pairs of sox on so you can bring some with you. And you can stand next to me when i dance and protect my tip jar. I also want to drink mimosas from my high heels please.

Meet me later for some good naturing.

Men and women are exactly the same in one respect. They all find a way to make everything - absolutely everything - all about themselves. And therefore they have been trying to build relationships on the basis of mutual self-absorption for thousands of years.

Does it work? Never. Ever.

Unless - both partners are so self-absorped they fail to recognize the self-absorption of the other. And mistake the self-absorption of one's partner for absorption of one's partner with one's self.

It's worked since the beginning of time!

coco

In my quest to find ever more useful information and suggestions for being a guy, I occaisionally serach the internet to identify things that guys should know, or have. Now usually I look at the "ten thing every man should own" columns as the playground for advertisers who want to sell you stuff, because you have been watching Queer Eye and your tszuz skills are not up to par. Thus they goad you to do what everyone sometimes does when they feel inadequate-shop (well some of us, when confronted with our mediocrity rage against the world after drinking too much tequila but...).

However, inspite of my usual disregard for these columns, I came across the following as one of ten things every man should own, and though it sound and sensible advice.

"Accept it: Girls are into footwear, and your feet will be one of the first things she looks at. Invest in quality black leather tie-ups — which will never go out of fashion and will match with most any jeans, pants or suit — to make a great first impression every time. If she knows her shoes, she'll be hoping to find you could afford a pair of Bruno Magli, Kenneth Cole, Steve Madden, or John Varvatos. Sure, they’re not cheap, but hey, it could be worse: We could be the ones in heels."

This is sound advice. Ignore the list of reccomended footwear desingers, except for maybe kenneth cole. Jakes secret that will save you money-johnston and murphy. J&M shoes are mostly under $200, and on sale mostly under $150. They are awesome, no other shoe compares. You can get them online even. Call them, they will help you out.
If you are only going to buy one pair of dress shoes, then I say spulrge, get the trampolines and shell out the $235, the fact that they are more comfortable than sneakers will be much appreciated. And you won't have to show up to the next SLCC wearing dress slacks with tennis shoes.

Speaking of which-even $225 Air Jordans don't cut it. Dress hsoes my freind, dress shoes.

LOL.. it's a bloody mary made with meat!