Pro-Choice and Anti-Capital Punishment?

There are legal arguments that I deved into ad nausuem in other threads on abortion. I am not going into that here. There are legal arguments in favor of the death penalty, and against the death penalty, i am not going inot that here.

I am a buddhist, and I hold all life sacred. Personally I do not beleive in either abortion or the death penalty. Yet I am pro choice, and I reluctantly accept the death penalty. Why?

In the case of abortion, from my own persepctive, it really boils down to the fact that the choice to abort a baby is going to be made, whether its legal or not. We will go back to vacations in mexico, or back-alley coathangers, and women will die as a result of unsafe practice. At least by making it legal, we have some control over the procedxure to ensure that it is safe, and establish a legal limit after which, an abortion cannot occur.

My own thought is that should abortions be made illegal, wil with have many more third trimester abortions as people ignore or avoid the reality of being pregnant. Thus I feel that cost in lives will be much higher if aborition were outlawed. Accordingly, I feel the moral responsibility with an abortion lies with the mother, and the social responsibility incumbent on sosciety is to ensure that if this unfortuante decsions in made, it is done so safely, and earlier rather than later.

With respect to the death penalty, it is a legal choice our society has made to grant the state the right to take life. I disagree with this choice for a number of reasons, and I voice them by way of my vote, and I lose. Its democracy, and we must accept the bad with the good and attempt to change.

However, I also have, in my professional career, spend significant time with the familes of victims of murders, and I have been very close to a number of murder victims. When this crime affects you, it is not so easy to advocate compassion for the killer. I ry to have compassion for both kller and victim, as I beleive firmly that compassion is a core value I strive for. But I cannot, unfortunately say that I am enlightened. Thus the lions share of my compassion goes to the victim of a crime, and not the perpetrator. Similary I think Justice should be viewed, in part, in the eyes of the victims, and those who have lost as result of the act. In this light I accept that these people feel justice served.

It's a nice pithy statement that you are getting a lot of mileage out of as some kind of "a ha, gottcha!", but alas there is a flaw in that argument. A sperm or an egg on their own do not form life. They cannot stand alone and become a baby. It is their combination that forms human life - from conception through birth. The collection of cells you keep referring to is part of the natural division of cells that begins upon fertilization. Everything from that point forward continues to grow and become a life. You can argue that it's not a "baby" yet because it is not at that stage, but it is human life.

well if you'd been aborted you'd not be making this argument now about killing those over 60.. you are not really convincing me of much.

I have heard this argument many times, stating abortions are going to happen, so we should make abortion legal to avoid "back-alley" abortions.

This same argument is used in giving kids condoms.

My question is, should we give kids drugs because we know they are going to get them anyway, and it will be much safer if the drugs are inspected by the government before being used?

Yet, there are very religious people who refuse to support (or sell) the morning after pill, which prevents conception (as opposed to the abortion pill which will cause a spontaneous abortion within 3 days of conception). Another fun factoid: many insurance companies will not cover the birth control pill, but will cover Viagra.

Like I read in MAD Magazine once, "Life begins the moment the woman's bra comes off".



(<---prochoice, anti-death penalty)

Oh absolutely. The amount of women I've seen use their child to hold on to a man who ends up beating them.

Yea I'm all for more abortions... I'm glad we agree on this.

So lets look at what we don't agree on....

What constitutes and individuals right and what is more part of society.

Apprently, there are those who believe that abortion affects their life directly.

Hillariosly, most of them are men who where never pregnant nor have even been in a discusion about having a baby with a pregnant woman.

Jake actually sums up pretty well how I feel about the topic. While I do not consider myself pro-choice, I would not want the alternative of abortions being completely illegal. I would like to see them occuring a lot less often than they are now. I would also like to see more restrictions on the worst forms of them.

As far as the death penalty, I agree that practicing compassion in the fact of having someone you love murdered would be incredibly difficult, perhaps nearly impossible. I do think that human life is sacred, and so I have a very hard time with state ordered executions, as someone is taking a life, for whatever reason. I hope that in my life this always remains a theoretical discussion for me.

Well, we certainly shouldn't arrest them, incarcerate them, and deny them money for college if they do use them.

Actually, I like the government inspection idea too - like quality control standards for tobacco and proof ratings for alcohol. So yes.

Ah so kill a child to end the cycle of domestic violence. Great argument, why didn't I think of it?

I *think* what he's getting at is there are a lot of no-win situations out there.

I know the kind of people he's talking about. This chick Heather from back in the day didn't want her kid. She'd go to the bar and leave the kid on the car for hours while she drank with her new boyfriend. Same at parties. It was disgusting. The child could barely interact with people. She finally had him taken away from her to stay with her grandmother.

I've also known women who purposefully get pregnant just to keep the man she's with - well, when the man leaves anyway, she has a kid she never really wanted. Wonder what's going to happen to the child now.

There's worse out there. Between a choice of putting a child through living hell until the authorities step in, and not going through with the pregnancy in the first place - well, its a shitty set of options, no one is arguing that its a cakewalk.

Hey I'm here for ya dude. Killing solves it all.

Isn't Iraq a perfect example?

Dammit, clearing up what I mean into clear English give me no room for sarcastic tirades.. thanks a lot!

*goes back to building and helping others

unfortunately, this is a common misconception. it costs more to have someone on death row, than to keep them in prison for life. the costs vary from state to state, but added court costs, payroll costs, etc. make it more expensive. you can find many articles on this if you do a quick google search. so how 'bout you pay for all those added costs to keep the death penalty. otherwise deal with it.


"A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )

"The death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life." ( The costs of processing murder cases in North Carolina / Philip J. Cook, Donna B. Slawson ; with the assistance of Lori A. Gries. [Durham, NC] : Terry Sanford Institute of Public Policy, Duke University, 1993.)

Right, I understand that. It comes down to whether or not you feel that ending the pregnancy is a valid option, or whether it is taking a human life. We don't get to choose our parents - many people are born into horrible situations, and perhaps it might have been easier for them if they had never lived. It's a complicated issue, certainly - and not as black and white as "it's murder!" or "it's my body I can do what I want".

I disagree with the death penalty and I discussed that in another thread.

The problem is that the abortion issue isn't an all-or-nothing debate.

I don't think abortion is a good idea and I don't think people should do it, espeically late in pregnancy.

However, there are certainly times when abortion is neccesary, practical or desireable.

I don't like the idea of the government being the one to make those decisions, especially a government that continues to cut welfare programs for children.

We need to have real sex education for kids, discourage risky behavior, promote abstinance, provide access to birth control. Prevent abortion by preventing unwanted pregnancy.

It is - the pro-life Bush administration at its finest * sigh *

Nor can a blastosphere. Or a foetus.

So we should kill any children who were unlucky enough to be born into a crappy family, to spare them a crappy childhood?

Really, what additional thing is then added to this process for it to become a child? The cells of the blatosphere continue to divide and ultimately form the various parts of the body.

It costs more to keep someone on death row maybe...but I don't choose to keep them there. That is our legal system. I believe in only a certain amount of appeals.
I'm still not paying for someone who has a negative impact on society to live the rest of his life out in jail.

I am willing to help those in need not those who murder.
If the proof is overwhelming enough to sentence someone to death then I believe that sentence should be carried out as soon as possible, not 10 or 20 years later.
Society should not have to pay to keep these people in better conditions than their victims.
Try going to the family of a murder victim and telling them that they have to pay to keep the killer in jail for life...and then give them the option to pay to have him put to death.
Which do you think they would choose?

i don't know what they would choose, and neither do you. you're assuming that they would choose for the person to be murdered. i know someone who had a close family member murdered. she doesn't support capital punishment and didn't want the person sentenced to the death penalty, even after living through that tragedy. each person has lived through different experiences, and will react differently if something like that happened to them. i don't think you should assume someone would choose one way or the other.

If we see child molesters abusing their children, should we say it is 'their choice' and the state should not be involved? Hopefully not, yes?

If we see a battered wife, should we allow her to continue being beaten in front of the kids, because she's a consenting adult and won't leave?

If we see a young, foolish couple have three abortions, should society look the other way while they go off for another weekend of unprotected sex and XBOX 360 games?



Children are not property. The high-minded arguments regarding 'rights', 'choice', and such ring hollow when the reasons for abortion are often shallow and stupid.

In response to your question, do I find the levels at which abortions are occuring disturbing?

A womans body will abort an unhealthy foetus naturally, the consensus among physicians is that for women under 25, that 15% of pregnancies are miscarried up to 35% after age 38 so if the foetus is unhealthy, and the miscarriage is not spontaneous, but assisted, then no, I do not have a problem with an abortion.

If however, it is a healthy foetus, then yes, I find it disturbing. I find it even more disturbing when it is used as a method of birth control. In other words, it's not just a one time jam a woman finds herself in but it's the third time. It's unhealthy for the woman and again, disturbing.

Would it change if we outlawed abortion? Did it before? No - instead of one person dying, two people died. Then again, maybe that's what people think should happen, punishment, retribution for the bad woman who got knocked up and had an abortion? Obviously she should be relagated to desperation, a coat hanger and a back alley.

I am a stanch supporter of Planned Parenthood. Unfortunately, commercials and ads that they have tried to run have actually been turned down for fear of angering certain factions of society. Hence - most of the education about birth control that can be done in this country, Planned Parenthood does in the background, at schools or "after the fact".

But yes - I do put my money where my mouth is.

If you doubt that ad's and commercials are rejected, I do have some supporting links:

http://www.loper.org/~george/trends/2000/Aug/95.html

http://www.aegis.com/news/ct/2001/CT010603.html

Actually you can just do a search and get a lot more.

In truth, I thing drugs should be legalized, excatly for the reason of regulation. In addition legalizing and distributing drugs would reduce the collateral violence associated with the drug trade and save a few lives. If you don't want you kids using drugs, then educate them not to.

Yes we should give kids condoms. They are going to have sex, whether you like it or not.

But really what you are saying is that we should not allow kids to get medical treatment for alchohold and drug addiction, because doing drugs and drinking is wrong. thus if a kid has a drinking problem we should deny them treatment for it.

Further more, we should not as a society sponsor juvenile drug and alchohol treatment programs, or education programs. If teh kids can't get treatment for drug and alchohol problems, they won't have them right?

You don't prevent a problem by banning the treatment.

I remember reading about a fetus that was born at 21 weeks that survived. Or maybe it was 19. But it was a very low number.I will try to find a link to where I read that.