Pro-Choice and Anti-Capital Punishment?

Billy - I am consistent in that if I knew that there would be no abuse of the law and a person had committed an atrocity, then I would not have a problem with an execution.

My issue is that I don't trust the government to not abuse power and to deliver true justice and that in of it's self is dangerous and an innocent person could (and have in fact been) executed. Consequently it renders execution as tool too dangerous for the people to hand over to the state.

Statistically we have learned that:

A) Execution is not a deterrent to crime

B) Execution is more expensive than keeping a person in prison for life

C) Some prisoners who received the death penalty were innocent.

Executions were held in the past to remove people from our society who threatened the life of our citizens, so in effect, society was "defending it's self". However, if putting someone in prison for life is just as effective then what is the point of continued executions?

If even one innocent person is killed it makes every one of us a murderer, not a self-defender.

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To me a baby is a miniature being with arms and legs, head, torso, eyes, nose, tongue, hearing, touch, taste. Something that resembles a human being. A blastosphere is a collection of cells. If that is a baby to you, then I would put it to you that by the same logic you would call a sperm cell a baby.

If you've ever masturbated, that would make you a mass murderer.



Every minute of every day we are making choices that bring a whole new slew of possibilities into fruition, or condemn others to eternal non-existence. You might go out tomorrow and turn left instead of right, and bump into someone who will become your soulmate and the mother of your children. Children who would never come into existence if you turned right.

Potential is only that - potential. It is not reality.



Then make sure you don't masturbate or have any wet dreams. When abortion was illegal, our government ensured that thousand upon thousand women died in horrible circumstances, of haemorrage or infection. They might not have directly taken those women's lives, but they caused them to be lost.

No, by the time that comes about the health insurance company will decide who lives and dies based on ability to pay and return on investment.

A new human being doesn't have legs or arms yet. That doesn't make her any less human. The argument appearance makes the human was used to deny blacks the right to vote, suggesting they aren't human because they don't look exactly as the whites look.

A sperm isn't a human anymore than a toenail is a human. A human has her own dna, a map of a complete human, with her own looks and personality.

As far as the death penalty goes, I think it crosses the line from "justice" to "vengeance." Our legal system should never indulge in vengeance, thus I am opposed to the death penalty.

I am pro-choice because it is unjust to force people, who by a flip of the biological coin are female, to endure a nine month pregnancy. In other words, as a man I cannot be forced to bear a child, so why should women have to?

you're contradicting yourself. you first say that appearance does not make something a human being, but then refer to looks when discussing what defines a human being.

you have every right to your opinion and beliefs. however, not everyone holds those same beliefs. everyone has differing opinions on this issue, and it is not OK to force your beliefs on others.

You say that like it is a bad thing?

I didn't refer to looks as what constitutes a human, I said the dna is the map that shows the child is indeed a different, complete human. The dna gives us the looks and personality of that human, and it's completely seperate from her mother.

Am I forcing my beliefs on you by suggesting killing innocent women is wrong and evil? Some people believe it's ok to kill women for being a hooker. Am I pushing my beliefs by saying it's wrong?

Yes, it is. I'm not pro-population control.

Summary is....

one side says a mother has the right to murder a child inside her

the other says it's wrong and that non-family and non-femals have the right to stop it.


Now... why are those protecting the lives of the unborn so easy to endanger soliders?

Let's drop negative postive modifiers and call you... anti-polutlation control

First I would like to say it's brave of you to actually change your opinion on such a big issue and admit that you were wrong (if you actualy think that way). But I dont agree myself with this answer.

Christianno is probably still mad at me for other intolerant remarks but to be overly blunt (again), my answer to this question is very simple.

With Capital Punishment you are killing a person, an individual, and a member of society. You are eradicating a conciousness from the cosmos of what AFAWK is the highest form of life there is.

In an Abortion you are killing a thing, a potential person perhaps, but not a person. Something that has little or no thought, no experience and little to no conciousness.

To me, a person becomes a person by virtue of their mind, their intelligence and their conciousness, the sum total of all their thoughts and ideas. Before birth, a baby has perhaps a soupcon of this, the killer on death row, despite what he has done, has a lot more and is a person.

To me, all life is sacred, but we cannot exist as animals without killing other animals all day every day. There are thousands of creatures that live on our skins that we kill when we move around, and animals we must kill and eat to survive at all, so killing is part of life. That being said, some life (ours for instance) is simply "worth more" than other life.

This might sound rude, but its what we do every day when we decide that the lobster in the pot is worth more to our stomachs than it's very life is to it's mate. The lower animals have feelings, they have emotions too. They know when they are dying and most likely they dont actually want to.

The reality is it's a scale of values, with some lives being worth more and some less. IMO conciousness and intelligence are the determining factors and thus the "killer" is worth more than a fetus. I would argue that the average chimpanzee is also worth far more than some full-grown humans on the same basis.

I refer to myself as pro-human.

Rats. This is turning into another one of those threads where Kevn's self-contradictory statements, religious dogma, and pseudoscience become a catalyst for an infinite loop of pointless arguing. It's a shame.

~Ulrika~

Pro-choice/contraception and pro-death. Now who ya calling a neo-con? Seriously this is a very provoking topic and I've enjoyed reading the replies. I can't present my semantics and thought process for where I am in my beliefs on either. Just that I am. I guess I go against that whole republicans are pro-death, pro-life thing huh?

Ulrika,

Please don't start the ad homs, it only ends in threads getting locked and it doesn't help your image. We should strive to discuss issues rather than others. If you disagree with someone, feel free to say so, and explain why you disagree. But please try to aviod starting a flame fest. Thanks

You've had your five posts. Why don't you sit back and let some other folks share their thoughts. If you'd like, start another thread where you can argue your beliefs ad infinitum there.

~Ulrika~

/me steps away to go make some popcorn.

I gave my opinion. Others commented and I responded. You are the only one seeking to silence those who disagree with your opinion in this thread.

Yea right.. if you where pro (existing) humans you'd not be anti-population control.

Ohh I'm so sorry you're right..all those unborns do me such gooood!

*grabs woman

Lets have 5! Let's have 6! Heck lets have a dozen and pretend they are dounuts!

Hmmm, this debate could go on forever...

Touchy subject, but here's my view:

I am pro common sense.
When a woman is pregnant from rape or knows her child may be ill or disfigured, then it is common sense for her to choose an abortion if she wishes.
It should not be used as a form of birth control though. If you cannot act like a responsible human being and stop yourself from getting pregnant or cannot choose a good father then oh well, that's life. A child should not have to die for your mistakes or bad choices.
Now I understand that some men are just a-holes and leave women all the time and it is a really crappy situation, but it takes 2 to decide on having children. Just because one person cannot hold up their end of the deal does mean the other gets to say "screw it, I quit too".
Anyone can give up, it takes a strong-willed person to do the right thing. Struggle is a part of life, there is no getting around it, but it always makes you better for dealing with it.
I respect all life and think that in most situations a child deserves the chance to live.

However, when someone murders and destroys life (changing topics now), I feel that they basically lose their membership to be human.
If you have no respect for life you do not deserve to have one.

There are evil people out their and I am no killer, but I would not have a problem ridding the world of people that would intentionally hurt others for their own gain or sick reasons.
Call it vengeance or whatever. I would gladly sacrifice my soul to keep others safe.

Prison is not the answer for such evil people. There is no reason that society should have to pay for the mayhem that others cause.

If there was a planet that we could dump these people on and let them live there then I would be all for it. But that is not the case.
We have to keep killers away from good people and removing them from the earth is the best option we have now.

I say to all those that are against the death penalty, you pay for them to live in prison until they are old and dead and we will stop the death penalty. Otherwise deal with it.

Just my 2 cents

All living humans are "existing humans". By your logic it would benefit humanity to kill everyone over the age of 60 because of over population and it would greatly reduce the government spending on healthcare.

*Sigh* Here we go again.

You hand over power of life and death of individual citizens by having murder be illegal as well. Why should you not be allowed to kill others? Well actually, you can, but there are consequences. The "not letting government tell me what I can and can't do" argument gets a lot weaker when another life is involved.



Alright, I'll bite. You don't find the levels at which abortions are occuring disturbing? The fiece attempts to fight any controls on even the most horrific forms of them? If you are so in favor of them, why are you not out campaigning for increased use of the myriad forms of effective birth control that actually do work WHEN USED. Why are you not running commericals advocating sexual responsibility?

maybe he meant "proto"