Pro-Choice and Anti-Capital Punishment?

omg... this statement would be funny if it wasn't so scary.


BTW, some of my best friends are <minority x>.

I just gave a way to implement it. Simply give the father 14 weeks of gestation time to decide. The mother's choice decides the fate of the child. The father's choice only decides his involvement in the child's life should the child live.

My comment was originally aimed at men AND woman... and best friends Zuzu... come on... I am talking about my family. Who the hell are you or Ulrika to imply that I "HATE and DISTRUST" women? That is slander plain and simple.

Neither of you know me and I attempted to make it very clear. I absolutely love and respect women and have many important ones in my life. Take your personal attacks elsewhere.

It's a way to distract from your points. I saw your post, I understood it completely, even before you fixed it to clarify the point you meant both men and women should either be responsible or get an operation to avoid pregnancy.

I think it should be considered, people (man and woman) who use abortion as a means of birth control more than once should be required to be sterilized. At least that would make people think about the consequences of their actions.

I do not want to repost your statement but I can discuss what made it offensive in general:

1. Culpability: The issue was framed as if the female and the female only was responsible. This is a feminist issue involving male-female inequity where men are perceived as being less culpable than women in regards to sexual activity.
   
2. Control: The suggested remedy was phrased as a male-imposed surgical price a female must pay in order to be free to be sexually active. This is a feminist issue where women must submit to the will of men in regards to their freedom (burkas, abortion laws, right to vote).
   
3. Violence: The suggested remedy was unnecessarily graphic, calling out female body parts for excision or mutilation. This is a feminist issue in that the mutilation of sexual organs is used as a means of control throughout the world (Indian practice of genital mutilation).

As proof of its misogynistic content, try saying the same thing in turn to your mother, wife, daughter, and female coworkers and see how they react. If you have difficulty saying it or if their reactions are adverse, you should consider that there is some validity in the fact that it was inappropriate.

I'm not upset anymore. I just thought that statement did not belong in an already difficult discussion concerning abortion rights and the death penalty. I tried to handle it as honestly as possible without coming across as unnecessarily rude. I know you and I called a truce recently and I still respect that.

~Ulrika~

Oooh scary you just reminded me of my mother... She has actually said "For a <enter minority here> he's a really nice guy." Archie Bunker would be proud.

p.s. she also voted for bush

The main problem with such arguments is that often, the parents are children themselves. Which is one of the main reasons the "it's my body" argument runs into difficulty.

How anyone can think that a minor-as-parent would make a compassionate, informed decision regarding abortion, or even themselves, is beyond me.

Having a mother who is also a minor secretly decide what to do in a clinic, away from her own family which is her greatest resource, is tragically irresponsible.

I can think of few ways that would stack the cards more heavily in favour of a convenience abortion, even when absolutely not necessary.

Honestly I do understand how the original post was misinterpreted but after clarification that it was made very clear that men AND women should abstain or get fixed. I do not see how you come to this conclusion.

Culpability… I made it very clear when questioned that men and women should share responsibility. I assume you agree with me on this point.

Control… The suggested remedy was abstinence and if that was not your choice and you don’t want to take responsibility for your actions then get fixed as to totally remove the possibility of becoming pregnant. This is not a “male imposed surgical price a female should pay”. It was a reasonable suggestion as an alternative to abstinence.

Violence… since when is getting fixed, a very common surgical procedure, graphic and violent? Nobody is suggesting mutilating anyone. Getting fixed is a plausible alternative that millions of people take.

No disrespect intended but in my opinion you are over reacting here. I would have no qualms about having this very conversation with any of the women I know. I still stand behind alternatives to abortion being abstinence or getting fixed and honestly see no reason why anyone should be upset at the suggestion.

Billy did clarify for me quite a few pages back about what he meant. Here is the link for it:
/112/62/77293/16.html#post804072

I accept your explanation and apologize for my overreaction.

As you know (or know now) I'm a vociferous defender of female rights and am thus quite sensitive to statements which might be misogynistic in nature. It's been quite an exercise in self control staying civil in such a thread and despite my misstep, I still think I'm doing relatively well.

Carry on. I'll put the safety on for the rest of the thread so there are no more accidental flesh wounds.

~Ulrika~

Apology accepted, thank you. I have been known to over react from time to time too.

You and I probably agree on almost every issue concerning female rights except abortion btw. I look at that from the perspective of rights for the baby, you for the woman. I disagree but do understand and respect your opinion though.

Right back at you.

If we keep this kind of stuff up, poor Jeska will be out of a job!

~Ulrika~

Desmond,

Of course you realize I'm against abortion in general. My point was to demonstrate the "sexist" way abortion is applied, giving men no control and half the responsibility for 18 years.

I agree my suggestion would not be a good idea, because it would increase abortions. I'm willing to put men out to protect the child. I think fathers should talk care of their children. I also think a woman should have to pay the man for his lose, if he wanted to keep his daughter.

Men have control insofar as it took both partners to have sex in the first place.

Either way, male responsibility remains, even if the male manages to evade it. 19 years in the case of a child coming into the world; usually longer. Or permanent responsibility in the case of abortion, which may range from severe physical consequences to an emotional wound that may never really heal.

I have one friend, who twenty years on, is still absolutely certain she is going to hell. Most do not share her view, but she is convinced. Absolutely sure of it. Is this fixable by the male who got her pregnant? No. Does he share in responsibility? Yes. She has always been traditionally Catholic, and he knew it.


The idea of payment from the mother, due to a daughter's destruction at any point gives me chills.

Imagine buying some junk food and a bottle of wine with such blood money. I am not a Christian, but such an unholy eucharist would make even me physically ill.

Sorry about that. I wasn't addressnig your original statement, I was just pointing out that your explanation is exactly the sort of thing a mysogonist would say. I found this amusingly ironic. It wasn't meant as an attack on you, nor as part of the debate on that subject (which you had already explained) and I had assumed was pretty much settled. I'm still chuckling over it now.

Both people have a choice before sex. Both people should have equal responsibility for their own actions. If the man rapes a woman, I say lock him up. But if it's consensual, I say it's 50-50 blame. The mother has the advantage because she gets to choose.

So the way I understand your point, the man should have no rights past having sex, even if he used protection and she told him she is on the pill.

The fact the girl was Catholic means the guy should have known she would feel guilty killing her child? I would hope anyone why chooses to take a life to make their own life more comfy would feel guilty.

What if he was Catholic, do you think he might feel the guilty too? Anyone with basic morals should feel for their child after paying to have it's life ended.

If the father forced the child's early demise, the mother should be paid, as the mother will lose years of time with her child and grandchildren. Same should be with the mother, if she decides to deprive the father of his right to spend that time with his child, he should be reimbursed.

Being a vociferous defender of the rights of both sexes would be even more impressive.