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Free Speech Does Not Apply to The Holocaust

Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
02-20-2006 07:49
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2049360,00.html

From: someone
Irving pleads guilty and backtracks on Holocaust denial
By Philippe Naughton and agencies in Vienna




In handcuffs, David Irving holds his notorious book "Hitler’s War" in which he claimed the Nazi leader had no knowledge of the "Final Solution" (EPA/Guenter R Artinger)




::nobreak::

David Irving, the revisionist historian, pleaded guilty today to criminal charges of denying the Holocaust and conceded that he had been mistaken when he claimed that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz.

But, in comments to reporters and in testimony before a Viennese court, the British writer denied that he had ever written a book specifically about the Holocaust and said that after revision of his own views he now accepted that million of Jews were indeed murdered in Nazi death camps.

"I am not a Holocaust denier. My views have changed," he said. "History is a constantly growing tree: the more you learn, the more documents are available, the more you learn, and I have learned a lot since 1989.

"Yes, there were gas chambers," Mr Irving added. "Millions of Jews died, there is no question. I don’t know the figures. I’m not an expert on the Holocaust."

Mr Irving faces a maximum sentence of ten years in jail under Austria's 1946 Banning Law which makes it an offence to publicly diminish, deny or justify the Holocaust. He has been held without bail since November on charges stemming from two speeches he made to Austrian rightwingers in 1989.

Six years after a High Court libel trial which demolished his reputation as a historical researcher, the case has once again made Mr Irving a cause célèbre among European neo-Nazis. His lawyer says that he received 300 pieces of fanmail a week during his incarceration and the Vienna courthouse was under high security to head off neo-Nazi protests.

The 67-year-old arrived at the courthouse in the same blue pinstripe suit he wore to the High Court trial and, despite being in handcuffs, clutching a copy of his notorious 1977 book, Hitler's War, which claimed that the German leader had no knowledge of the "Final Solution".

During his three months in prison awaiting trial he has been working on his memoirs, under the working title Irving's War.

Once in the dock, and with his guilty plea out of the way, Mr Irving addressed the court in German "I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," he said.

But he insisted that he never wrote a book about the Holocaust, which he called "just a fragment of my area of interest." "In no way did I deny the killings of millions of people by the Nazis," Mr Irving testified.

Mr Irving has been in custody since his arrest on November 11 at a motorway service station on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis’ extermination of six million Jews. The state attorney’s office said the 1989 remarks were "a dangerous violation of freedom of speech".

The trial comes amid fierce debate over freedom of expression in Europe after the publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad that has triggered violent demonstrations in the Islamic world.

Although Austria's Banning Law is often applied - charges were brought against 724 people in 2004 - it rarely produces a prison term, and many Austrians fear that Mr Irving could become a far-right martyr if he is jailed.

In 2000, Mr Irving sued an American Holocaust scholar, Deborah Lipstadt, for libel in the High Court in London, but lost. Mr Justice Gray, the judge in that case, ruled that Mr Irving was indeed "an active Holocaust denier ... anti-Semitic and racist".

Richard J Evans, the Cambridge history professor whose forensic demolition of Mr Irving's research was key to that defeat, also criticised Austria's decision to charge Mr Irving, which he said risked making him a martyr to freedom of speech.

"I think the media circus that we see in operation now, with hundreds of reporters and TV and radio crews crowding around the courtroom, shows how counter-productive it all is," Professor Evans told Times Online.

"Irving was virtually forgotten before this trial came up and it's simply drawing unjustified attention to a discredited figure."

Roger Boyes of The Times, who was at the Vienna court today, said that Mr Irving entered the courtroom "with a swagger" but was soon put under pressure by relentless cross-questioning from the chief judge, who forced him to apologise for pretty much every view he had expressed over the past 20 years.

Boyes added: "It's becoming like a free speech seminar. You've got al-Jazeera here, you've got Jyllands-Posten, all the people affected by the cartoon war. Everyone one is asking why it's taboo to attack the Holocaust but not to attack the Prophet Muhammad.

"But the case is being fought on the detail of what he said, testing whether he's really retreating, whether his apologies are really worth anything, whether we can believe in Irving's remorse."

The verdict in the case is expected later today, although under Austrian law Mr Irving's guilty plea does not guarantee a conviction.

Mr Irving’s lawyer, Elmar Kresbach, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that there were many reasons to give the historian "a certain leniency in sentencing".

"His lecture happened 17 years ago. He is an English citizen, he doesn’t live in Austria, (he is) 68-years-old. He is a historian who is well known. He is not really dangerous, especially in Austria."

Asked if Mr Irving had revised his opinion on the Holocaust and the existence of the gas chambers, Mr Kresbach replied: "Yes. That is correct. He seems to have revised his former opinions and he told me why: because he found new evidence, new documents, confirming the Holocaust and the mass murder of Jews and other people during the Second World War."

The only way for Mr Irving to secure a light sentence would be for him to convince the eight-strong jury that he had indeed changed his spots and was no longer an active Holocaust denier. If he does manage to escape with a suspended sentence, he would then be free to travel to a "scientific" congress on the Holocaust in Iran to which he has been invited.


Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
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02-20-2006 08:22
Totally free speech seldom applies anywhere. Even the USA, which can be downright fanatical about free speech, has its limits... and European countries have tighter ones.
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Garoad Kuroda
Prophet of Muppetry
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
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02-20-2006 08:29
What?!?!!
You mean I can't publicly deny well known facts and present fake alternative information as actual truth?

CRAP!

Has anyone told Iran yet? Oh wait, stupid question, nevermind.
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WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
02-20-2006 08:34
I'm all for free speach, and think any attempt to repress it sucks, but in this particular case....

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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
02-20-2006 08:42
From: Garoad Kuroda
What?!?!!
You mean I can't publicly deny well known facts and present fake alternative information as actual truth? .



Kind of like the way the US and European countries have completely downplayed the death toll of the middle passage.


I don't think this guy should get jail time for being and idiot or a complete asshole. If he goes to jail then we have billions of people to lock up around the globe.
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
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02-20-2006 08:42
The world seems to truly be losing its mind. Reasonable people shouldn't seek to defeat idiocy by becoming idiots themselves. I can understand restricting free speech on private property, but the kind of law this guy is being sentenced under is just plain wrong. It's no different than the jihad that was declared against Salman Rushdie for The Satanic Verses, or the riots over the Mohommed cartoons. We don't need thought police. Only actions should be criminal, not ideas, words, or art. Shit like this makes me look forward to the day we find another habitable planet. I'll sign up for the first ship.
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
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02-20-2006 08:45
From: Chip Midnight
Shit like this makes me look forward to the day we find another habitable planet. I'll sign up for the first ship.



Unless the planet is devoid of human beings it will be just like this one. People are the problem, moving them to Mars won't do anything but make them hot and thirty and they will still be asshats.
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
02-20-2006 08:46
Is it free speech, to tell someone the snake oil you are selling will cure disease and improve their love life?



Is it free speech to tell a young girl that she is not fit to drive a car, live her life under the purview of male relatives and obey them?



Is it free speech to make statements you know the idiots in your society will consume, for the sole reason of keeping yourself in control of its fundamentalist government?
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
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02-20-2006 08:48
From: Eboni Khan
Unless the planet is devoid of human beings it will be just like this one. People are the problem, moving them to Mars won't do anything but make them hot and thirty and they will still be asshats.


True. But there will be a lot less of them and a lot more land to put between me and them. :p
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Chip Midnight
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02-20-2006 08:50
From: Desmond Shang
Is it free speech, to tell someone the snake oil you are selling will cure disease and improve their love life?


No. It's fraud. Different issue.

From: someone
Is it free speech to tell a young girl that she is not fit to drive a car, live her life under the purview of male relatives and obey them?


Yes. You can tell anyone anything. Actually preventing her from those rights is a different story... the difference between actions and words.

From: someone
Is it free speech to make statements you know the idiots in your society will consume, for the sole reason of keeping yourself in control of its fundamentalist government?


Yes. Again, learn the difference between words and actions.
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Eboni Khan
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Join date: 17 Mar 2004
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02-20-2006 08:51
From: Chip Midnight
True. But there will be a lot less of them and a lot more land to put between me and them. :p



Who will protect you when the Klingons come, huh? huh?!?!
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
02-20-2006 08:52
From: Garoad Kuroda
What?!?!!
You mean I can't publicly deny well known facts and present fake alternative information as actual truth?

CRAP!

Has anyone told Iran yet? Oh wait, stupid question, nevermind.



Not to defend the crazed dictator of Iran, but his comments as to Jews creating a mythology around the Holocaust is completely misunderstood. He is not denying it's happening, he is saying they have created a "religion" of sorts around it.

Again --not saying I agree with this statement or not, but that was what he was saying.
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
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02-20-2006 08:59
From: Eboni Khan
Who will protect you when the Klingons come, huh? huh?!?!

Yeah, you need to watch out for the Klingons around Uranus.
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Garoad Kuroda
Prophet of Muppetry
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
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02-20-2006 09:17
From: Kendra Bancroft
Not to defend the crazed dictator of Iran, but his comments as to Jews creating a mythology around the Holocaust is completely misunderstood. He is not denying it's happening, he is saying they have created a "religion" of sorts around it.

Again --not saying I agree with this statement or not, but that was what he was saying.


I'm not sure I buy that. I think he/they didn't expect it to be brought out in the open as much as it has been, and then a nice sidestep was thought up to explain it. If I was going to say what he "meant", I'd word it very differently. Possible translation issues aside, this sounds pretty bad:

From: someone
He also sparked widespread international condemnation in October when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said in the speech to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan, according to a report from Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting.

"The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets," he said. ";(It) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet."

"If you have burned the Jews, why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel," Ahmadinejad said.


I can see how it twists easily enough, but "myth" usually strongly implies fiction.

...

Although he may have a point with the last sentence there. With the exception that the US and Canada shouldn't be on that list for the same reason he says it's current location isn't justified (what a dumbass). I guess if Germans really did feel so bad about it, I do kinda wonder why they didn't offer up a plot of their own real estate to make up for it. But whatever...what's done is done. (Disclaimer- admittedly I can't remember much about the circumstances of how Israel's location was chosen.)

Of course even if we agree that it was a mistake to found Israel where it was founded, that does not equate to a right to violently "wipe Israel off the map". Perhaps his fat fundmentalist ass should be wiped off the map instead?
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WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
02-20-2006 09:28
From: Garoad Kuroda
I guess if Germans really did feel so bad about it, I do kinda wonder why they didn't offer up a plot of their own real estate to make up for it.


If you were a jew post-WWII, would YOU have wanted to settle in southern germany?
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Zapoteth Zaius
Is back
Join date: 14 Feb 2004
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02-20-2006 09:30
From: Reitsuki Kojima
I'm all for free speach, and think any attempt to repress it sucks, but in this particular case....



I'm knicking this :p

HIGH temptation to put it in my sig.. Temptation, rising, rising, heck I'm just too weak..
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
02-20-2006 09:45
From: Desmond Shang
Is it free speech, to tell someone the snake oil you are selling will cure disease and improve their love life?



Yes, and it actually depends on the company saying it. As long as a disclaimer is added to unregulated products saying these facts have not been proven medically, they can get away with it.

From: someone

Is it free speech to tell a young girl that she is not fit to drive a car, live her life under the purview of male relatives and obey them?


Yep, it is expressing an opinion. Like children should be seen and not heard. Enforceing that opinion is something totally different, but being able to express it is free speech.

From: someone

Is it free speech to make statements you know the idiots in your society will consume, for the sole reason of keeping yourself in control of its fundamentalist government?


Again, yes. There is nothing in free speech that says what you say has to be true. Have you never told a lie? People manipulate each other all the time.

You may not like how the speech is being used, but you gave three perfectly valid examples of things that should be allowed under freedom of speech.
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
02-20-2006 09:48
From: Eboni Khan
Kind of like the way the US and European countries have completely downplayed the death toll of the middle passage.


Yeah, where I had to read "The Slave Dancer" as a kid and it had half the slaves die on the trip, yeah, that's really denying it, you know.
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Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
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02-20-2006 09:51
From: Garoad Kuroda
... I can see how it twists easily enough, but "myth" usually strongly implies fiction...
Wrong.
From: Garoad Kuroda
... With the exception that the US and Canada shouldn't be on that list for the same reason he says it's current location isn't justified (what a dumbass)...
Wrong, (refers to countries involved in fighting WWII I believe.)
From: Garoad Kuroda
... Of course even if we agree that it was a mistake to found Israel where it was founded, that does not equate to a right to violently "wipe Israel off the map". Perhaps his fat fundmentalist ass should be wiped off the map instead?
Technically also wrong.

Even though we can assume he might mean violent eradication of the Jewish State of Israel, tecnically "wiping a country off the map" is talking about boundaries of countries on maps and whether or not one should/should not be there.

The Jewish terrorists that were fundamental in the establishment of Israel used similar language and tactics and all made similar speeches. Years later they were invited to the White House and given nobel peace prizes etc. If we are lucky, there is some young Muslim terrorist out there today that will become a statesman of his new country and similarly be invited to the White House for tea and cakes in 2020 or so. :)
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Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
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02-20-2006 09:52
From: Aliasi Stonebender
Yeah, where I had to read "The Slave Dancer" as a kid and it had half the slaves die on the trip, yeah, that's really denying it, you know.

Yes, i remember when we coverd this in school (I think it was in middle school). I can't think of the middle passage any more without visions of sharks following the ships waiting for bodies to be thrown over the side. :( *shivers*
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
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02-20-2006 10:03
From: Cristiano Midnight
You may not like how the speech is being used, but you gave three perfectly valid examples of things that should be allowed under freedom of speech.


That was my point.

It is interesting to see who reacts the most strongly when total freedom of expression is allowed on a global stage.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
02-20-2006 10:17
From: Dianne Mechanique
Wrong.


Wrong.

See how that works?

From: Dianne Mechanique
Wrong, (refers to countries involved in fighting WWII I believe.)


Which has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is exactly what Garoad was saying, so also not wrong.

From: Dianne Mechanique
Technically also wrong.

Even though we can assume he might mean violent eradication of the Jewish State of Israel, tecnically "wiping a country off the map" is talking about boundaries of countries on maps and whether or not one should/should not be there.


And calling someone a faggot is technicly calling them a bundle of short sticks.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
02-20-2006 10:23
From: Aliasi Stonebender
Yeah, where I had to read "The Slave Dancer" as a kid and it had half the slaves die on the trip, yeah, that's really denying it, you know.



Thank you for proving my point. Any time you mention slavery, middle passage, african genocide, you get smartass comments and usually they are followed that was in the past blah blah. You mention the holocaust and it is the ultimate trump card, everyone just shuts the fuck up.
Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
02-20-2006 10:26
From: Reitsuki Kojima
If you were a jew post-WWII, would YOU have wanted to settle in southern germany?



Utah? We could have gave them Utah. LOL


I think the point is "We will give these people some land to establish a Zionist state, but umm the Western World isn't giving up a damn thing, so lets just steal some land from the Arabs". If the UN wanted them to have a state so bad why didn't the Western World offer them a spot?
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
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02-20-2006 10:30
From: Eboni Khan
Utah? We could have gave them Utah. LOL


I think the point is "We will give these people some land to establish a Zionist state, but umm the Western World isn't giving up a damn thing, so lets just steal some land from the Arabs". If the UN wanted them to have a state so bad why didn't the Western World offer them a spot?


Post WWII, you had two basic groups:

Countries involved in one way or another in the attempt to wipe the jews out.

Countries that fought in one way or another to prevent the jews from being wiped out.

Now, do you force the jews to live with people who had just tried to kill them, or take away the land of the people who fought to save them?
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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