"Second Life does not allow Nazi iconography as it broadly offensive."

Maybe. But the combat armor in Star Wars, including Darth Vader's outfit, was designed from the gear of the samurai and daimyo nobles of pre-industrial Japan. More curves. More emphasis. Far more suggestive.

And, btw, the biggest influence on Nazi uniforms and gear, other than the 19th century Prussian model, was - ready for this?

American and British science fiction. Yep. E.E. "Doc" Smith and others in the twenties and thirties who wrote the space war romance novels like the "Skylark" series. Take a look at some of the collar insignias and metalwork braiding of the Luftwaffe and the SS sometime. Nazi leaders were SF fans and made a political fetish out of thousand-year empires stretching into the future and out to the stars.

Jimmy not just wore the hat..on one occassion he wore the whole getup...more than once...supposedly an ex told reporters he got off on wearing around the house now and then

I think this is a really interesting observation - Lucas' use of such imagery, if it is accepted as being so influenced, differs from the actual use of say a big Swatiska on the Death Star. Using images ingrained in the popular psyche of 'Nazi-esque' uniforms for instance to invoke the 'evilness' of one side in war story is not the same as simply representing the Empire as 'Nazis'. The line is perhaps subtle, but important I think. Food for thought given the thread of discussion however. At what point is the 'line' crossed?

(I'm now having flashbacks to the end of History of the World Part I. Ack!)

I remember that Doc Savage used to wear those tucked-in pants with the poofy thighs and the tall boots too. Was he around before Nazi's? Oh..and equestrians I guess...they were similar pants.

Same time. Luftwaffe pilots who flew the ME-262 jets and the ME-163 rocket-propelled interceptors wore an insignia consisting of a brass rocket impaling a silver planet . Need I say more?

He is a nut, but man I love him!

I liked it better when he wore the White or Black Dragon outfits.

Speaking of the Dragon getup, he had the mark of the beast on the pants, so not a whole lot better than a Nazi Swastika, but at least we know that the Nazis did exist, and what they did. The existence of Satan has never been scientifically proven.

Sounds sexy. In a machine vs. nature kind of way.

Yeah Jimmy page is a god ....I'm sure he knows quite a bit about satanism considering he was so into alister crowley that he bought his castle and lived in it for a few years.

I have a Theremin - for YOU!



Me thinks I am going to have to make a Dragon outfit now...

Any child growing up in Nazi Germany was _required_ to be in the Hitler Youth. That's the reality. Then, after being indoctrinated while at a very young age, they would grow up to replace those soldiers in the SS and Wehrmacht who were dying, retiring etc. etc. At least that was the concept to span the decades etc. It was also the reality for many during a decade of German history. I don't think that because someone was in the Hitler Youth or after being in the Hitler Youth most of their life, going on to join the SS can be held against them. If you didn't follow the party line, you too could join the Jewish, the homosexuals, the Gypsys, the Polish, the political prisoners, working to be free (Arbeit Macht Frei).

Continuing to read this thread.... But wanted to state that this was a well written post (very nice Nikki! ). As much as the logic in this post scares me, I know it is what we are faced with daily. It is like words in our language that have been twisted. I guess images are easier to manipulate. I mean, as humans we recognize and are attracted to pictures before words (with exceptions of course). So it would stand to reason stronger reactions come from images than words. But in the grand scheme, to me it is the same. Pictures and Words that mean one thing, are manipulated for ill intent by hurtful people. I know some words have been taken away, even taken back, from those hurtful people. I wonder if the day will come when that happens to images.

I think most Thelemites would cringe at being called Satanists (and vice versa).

With out a doubt the coolest mofo that ever lived

I feel a page avatar coming on....

I agree Coco, anti-Christianity and anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism -- it's all part of the anti-Western Judeo-Christian civilization that you find nowadays by the semi-educated on the Internet -- it's a horror, truly.

Talen's justification of swastikas is lame. As I pointed out, context is all. I didn't say the images were photoshopped. I said they were out of context, first of all, because they were most likely used by 1939. Then I added how easy it would be to photoshop anything you like.



Yeah, that's the point. It can be only associated with mass killings now. Nobody is looking for nice little Native American vignettes or Jackie-O stories or Coke ads from the 1920s anymore.



Could the kind of attitude expressed here in your siggy about human life perhaps help us understand your deplorable point of view on the matter of the sacredness of human life?

I've been thinking all day of the whole argument that swastikas were in use long before the Nazi Party appropriated them. The argument seems to be that those of us educated in the fact that the swastika's meaning has been perverted by World War II and the Nazi Party should not have an issue with a swastika.

I keep coming back to a little known fact about one of our own (i.e. American) inflammatory symbols. The burning cross. What isn't known about this symbol is that it has been around for centuries. It was not created to terrorize minorities while maintaining some false Christian justification for the action. I don't know the full history of the burning cross, but it was once used by the Scottish clans in Scotland. It was used by a clan chieftain to call his followers for a war/battle. It was a signal and a symbol. Part of the ethics, vows and loyalty of a clansman/woman for his/her leader was that when called they would come. They would fight and they would die. So while the meaning of it was warlike at this time and while it could signify bloodshed, it was a honor thing. It was positive. It wasn't a negative symbol like it is today.

I haven't read enough to know if this was proven or is documented anywhere, but the theory is that some of the original Klansmen after the Civil War were Scottish-American. Traditions, even after the Scottish Revolution of 1745, were well known and carried down through the generations of Scots, even if they couldn't be practiced due to English presence in Scotland. It was probably chosen by the original KKK (or whichever section thought of it first) _because_ it was well known to other Scottish-Americans, and because it was a call to bear arms. It resembles Hitler choosing the swastika for reasons of nationalism and to strike a responsive chord in the German population.

My mind kept returning to this all day as I read the posts and thought about them. Yes, the swastika was subverted by the Nazi Party, yes, it was originally meant as something very different and very good. However, is it a lack of education to be offended by the swastika or to be slightly uneasy in the presence of one, no matter the background of it (i.e. the Nazi background) or its use? No. I don't think so. The meaning behind the symbol, unfortunately has wormed its way into the subconscious of the populace to mean other things. Even educated people shudder at the sight of the swastika. I had a professor in college who was a Lutheran Jew. She had lost much of her family during the Holocaust. While I am sure that she knows the history of the swastika (being not only a professor, not only a Jewish person, but also an _art_ professor), I doubt confronting one in any situation or context would be comfortable or okay with her.

I am Scottish-American. Even if I had been for the War in Iraq (different can of worms, no need to even go there *grin*) I would not have gone to my front yard and burned a cross. I would not have appreciated it or liked it had George W. done so either. Why? Unfortunately, it is an example of another symbol that was subverted by a group of people. It has wormed its way into the American subconscious collective as "bad, evil etc etc".

I am a World War II/Holocaust hobbyist (?, don't know what word to use ) and know the meaning of the swastika, both before and after the Holocaust. I still feel a dischord seeing a swastika in a different context. I saw the piles of artificial limbs, the piles of hair, the piles of shoes that fill exhibit rooms in Auschwitz. I saw the crematoriums at Dachau. I saw the execution spot in the plaza at Auschwitz. I saw the crematoriums there as well. I walked down the railroad that the trains with their human cargo came in on. I have traveled all around Europe and in every city and quite a few villages, there is a palpable hole where the Jewish community once thrived. I am not ignorant, I know the meanings of swastikas. They still unnerve me, they still make me uneasy.

Just a few thoughts I had on this

Go reread your post you did say they were photoshopped...and I didn't justify the nazi use of swastika's



it can only be associated with mass killing now? not likely...the nazi swastika yes the others no...just because you say so doesn't make it so....but gather together with others of the small mind tribe and continue to tell us what it is we should believe because you do.




My sig is a joke....much like you... except funnier

Wow. That is exactly the kind of ignorant attitude that German non-Jews had during the Holocaust.

I'm usually not serious, especially in SL, but you've truly said something very bad eggy.

It is not, and will never be, time to move on from the Holocaust, whether it affected you or not. This mindset will allow us to forget and therefore let history repeat itself. Six million people were either burned in an oven, gassed in the showers, hung, shot, tested on by radiation and other things, worked to death, or died of malnutrition.

If you ever say that it was 60 years ago so its time to forget now, I'm coming after you with my katana, and I don't mean the one I have in SL.

And as for Swastikas roaming around SL. I strongly suggest anyone who wants to put that stuff up not let me know about it.

I have to ask ....I understand how this makes you feel ...what the nazi's did was deplorable but everything you described was also done during the crusades and the inquisition and yet everyone reveres the sacred cross. What am I missing here?

One person says the crusades and inquisition don't count as they were long ago and others say it doesn't matter how long ago the holocaust happened it always matters. I agree we can never let anyone forget what happened in Germany but I also think we should remember exactly what happened during the crusades and inquisition.

This is a genuine question and I'm not mocking anyone or any religion or peoples....but attrocities have happened under the nazi swastika and it is now reviled....while similar attrocities have happened under the symbol of the christian cross and it is revered....shouldn't both these symbols be reviled?

The cross stands for many things, most of them good. However, the swastika reminds people of one and only one thing. Even though it has roots as a symbol in Christianity, when you think of the Swastika, you do not think of Jesus.

This is a horrible topic as as soon as you say anything against the perceived wisdom you are accused of supporting the unspeakable.

I'm just going to post this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1480178,00.html

The Crusades occurred mostly to recover lands that had been Christian for nearly 1000 years from intolerant Moslem invaders. The Inquisition was not really that widespread in its effects outside of Spain and it was pursued in the interests of maintaining an orthodoxy of religious practice, not to butcher millions. To judge either of these events, which occured in a medieval or pre Renaissance world by our modern standards, you have to also accept that a lot of good, like modern medicine, modern agricultural methods, advanced mathematics and the recovery of classical philosophy - which directly led to the Renaissance and modern ways of thought were the children of the Crusades.

Yes. It hasn't brought anyone any good luck at all lately, so why use it?

but is that just because it is relatively recent time wise? At one time the Swastika only meant a good thing. So because most people see the cross think of Jesus they get to forget the millions killed because they didnt believe?

Its scary when you think about it...people were tortured and murdered because they didn't believe in Jesus Christ ...not a few... not a few thousand...literally millions...because they denied the belief they were tortured and killed under the symbol of the cross and yet as much time has passed the cross is now revered.....will this happen in 1000 years or so with the Nazi Swastika? I sure hope not.