"Second Life does not allow Nazi iconography as it broadly offensive."

Then you totally missed my point. If you're talking about "your" house in SL, it ain't yours. It's on Linden Labs' server. The point I made was that LL has the right to decide what is expressed on their property, and you leased that property understanding those restrictions. Freedom of expression also means freedom from coerced expression. Linden Labs doesn't want certain things expressed on their property and that's their right, your right to express yourself doesn't extend to forcing LL to host that expression.

It isn't about other people being dictators, it's about some people wanting others to host their expression without the right to decline the privilege. Oh, wait, I guess that is about some people being dictators, it's just not the people you think.

Sorry, but how have I contradicted myself?

I was specifically thinking about how you're saying the cross has good and bad connotations yet the swastika is inherantly bad.

Don't you people realise war in jessie is upon us?

Never said that though. I have said the cross has good connotations and the Nazi swastika and other iconography have bad connotations. I've tried to be very careful and always specify "Nazi swastika" and not refer to swastikas in general. To quote myself,



Again, the similarity of the Nazi swastika to similar symbols is irrelevant. I'm only talking about the Nazi iconography here, not about the myriad of swastikas and swastika-like symbols found in other cultures.

A quick scan of the previous posts looks like I did overract a bit, sorry. I just let myself get a bit riled by the "I understand... but" comment, which I felt was a little unfair since it isn't alway true (can't comment on this case because I've forgotten what it's about now).

Anyway, I wasn't gonna join in on this thread, I only posted originally in the hope someone would summerise what happened before for me. Gonna unsubscribe so I don't get drawn in again. Have fun!

It's this simple: some things that in the past have not had bad connotations are given such with time and circumstance. It should be obvious that the swastika has forever been associated with sadism and horror. If someone displays a swastika in his home or land, people are going to think he's pro-Nazi. That's just the way it is; it would be somewhat naive to expect otherwise.

I've used this example before: if a girl stands in a red miniskirt and mesh stockings on a street corner at 10pm, it doesn't matter whether she's a hooker or not-- people are going to take it for granted. She should have no reason to complain then if a guy stops and propositions her; she foolishly put herself in that position. There are some things that are just supposed to be understood by rational human beings. People deny reality every day-- doesn't stop its existence.

ummm, no it has not. Until the Nazis, that is.



http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

This thread belongs to General.

Please move it back where it belongs.

It's not called the swashtika by all cultures. For example the symbol is known as the manji in Japanese culture. It's iterations are called the Wan in China, the Fylfot in England, the tetraskelion in Greece, and the Swashtika in India and later Germany.

Depending on the cultures/ religion ect, this symbol had different meanings. However in western culture, it's known as a symbol of hate. Neo-Nazi's still use it. It's connotation in the west is that of intolerance, hate, genocide, and everything that is the anti-thesis of a decent human being. Expecting people to just say "Well it's ok because the Budduhist used it first" is unreasonable.

So unless your planning on hosting Hindu weddings, opening a Jainist temple, or maybe a Buddhist temple, their is no reason to host a Swashtika or any other of it's incarnations.

Hey! Don't rain on someone's parade. It took eight and a half months to move this thread which is a discussion of Nazi Iconography IN SECOND LIFE.

The fact that no one is taking credit for having moved it strikes me as interesting...

to me it sound like an attempt to make the thread die.

okay so basically i couldn't display the 4 headed swastika in SecondLife because its hurting the sensibility of some , and thus, has been considered as "broadly offensive" by linden labs. But i could perfectly take the same layout and color sheme if i desire it and lets say make... 3 bladed swastika?

Some persons here will advance as many senseless argumentation as possible for the "don't" the past is the past, we must remember the errors of the past, but at the same time drop on them an iron sensorship?

I was responding to an "it's always been a symbol of hate" type comment. That blanket statement is simply untrue. Yes, since the 1930's, in the western culture it is viewed as a symbol of hate. I am in no way expecting people to say it's ok to use it because the Buddhist used it first and I have no idea how you reached that conclusion from my response.

It's simple for me. If its a Nazi Swastika, then it is questionable becaue of what that incarnation of it represents to some folks.

If it's another incarnation of the Swastika, like the ones you see commonly depicted on Buddhist Temples in Korea and elsewhere, no problem.

It's all about intent, and the Nazi Swastika represents tortured (sometimes vivisected), mutilated, and murdered friends and family to many people.

i can say the same for the USA flag ^_^

Cool, so, if Nazi Germany still existed, and a company there was selling accounts to an online game, you could sign up and not have a guilty conscience!

Awesome! o_O

i dont see your point Nash in what is it related to that fact the US flag is as bloodsoaked as the nazi flag, and thus fall in the same category?

itsnot about ideologies its about peoples that impose their vision on what they want to see and what they dont want and exepct that others bend to it.

Most peopls never put back stuffs in question, sure its hard to make a decent argumentation if the argument is that in the RL world its commonly known as this or that, i am sorry but everything that come into my hands is re analysed, i do not rely on other peoples to think for me , and this is why i am as strongly involved in this question, because as i read on this thread, the persons that want it to be banned and still be banned are basing their argumentation on what they consider as an ultimate truth.

The fact that the nazi iconography is banned in germany or other country isnt forbidding me to be critical, i am agains this carpet sensorship agains nazi iconography because it has no foundation, exepted a bunch of peoples that want the world to look pleasing to their egocentric vision.

You find nazi iconography offensive, well its your opinion. I happend to apreciate this iconography for the power it radiate, even star wars's empire is lending certain details to the 3rd reich style to comfer to it a powerfull and military feel, its link to the jew holocaust isnt interesting me. How many years will peoples still think we have to consider it as taboo when millions of humans are killed every years by the occidental armies.

And for the extreme right wing party in France, at least we have both extremes (fascist and communists) free to expose their opinion. If they get elected one day, well i can assume thats because the peoples voted for it.

Diabolisation of Adolf Hitler and the 3rd reich is a way for the governments to forget their own mistakes. And for peoples to convince themselve they can never be as bad as this. But they are wrong, between the end of the 2nd world war and today, way more atrocious acts have been perpetrated.

this shits finally been moved? how many necro-revivals did it take?

I was extending your logic to it. In other words, if you see the US as blood-soaked, yet you support a business located in the US, you're sort of complicit and are at least partially nullifying your own point.

Of course, I could, like you, come out with some dispassionate rhetoric about how that was "long ago", but it really doesn't change the fact that most Western countries have horrors in their closets, and if you're referring to the disgrace that was the genocide of Native Americans, remember that it was Europeans who settled this region, and began the genocide, not Americans, because they didn't exist yet. Furthermore, the idealogies embraced and terrors practiced by the post Revolutionary US didn't just spring into existence on the North American continent, they filtered in from England, France, The Netherlands, Spain, and so on.

If you're referring to Iraq, then let me say, I am passionately against that war, and it's existence doesn't lessen the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis.

Then, by your own logic, you should feel the same way about US iconography. It's powerful good stuff, right? I mean the Iraqis dying aren't as interesting as the militarily powerful feelings brought out by The Stars and Stripes and the Bald Eagle, right? Who cares about the dead Iraqis, that shit reminds me of Star Wars!

So according to your vision of the things, why should it be banned from SL?

I mean something strong, not just that it hurt the feelings of some cause the world doesn't revolve around a few peoples

Myself, I am sort of on the fence about this. David and others have made some damned fine points that have me thinking it over.

I can see how it wouldn't be fun to log into SL and see Nazi imagery if I had family members murdered by that regime, but, on the other hand, many other games have that imagery all over the place, some of them are online games.

KKK stuff isn't allowed either. Should I be able to build a model of a KKK rally with pictures of hanged black people and the like? I guess it all comes down to intent. If the creator's intent was to educate through highlighting the atrocities so we don't forget, and don't allow such things to happen again, that would be fine with me. However, if the creator's intent to offend people, then I would say it's not ok. And that is the whole ball of wax for me. We simply cannot determine intent very easily, if at all, so I believe that LL has decided to err on the side of caution.

Lastly, we are not talking about a "few peoples" here, we are talking about millions.

we are just talking about a symbol, i had members of my family on both sides in this war but we arent about showing atracities, just a damned logo

No, it's about all Nazi Iconography, not just one logo.

From the opening post:

"...any and all Nazi iconography"

And I had members of my family in that war too, that doesn't mean I get to decide for everyone else that they aren't allowed to be offended by something.

And atrocities do come into play here, because one person made a death camp build (which has been discussed here I believe, if my memory serves me properly from the last time I read this thread, in it's entirety), replete with ovens to burn bodies. That's more than just a logo.

on the other side, who is enough impartial to decide for me what i can think show and see?