Base skin problem.. moral issue..

Actually, given the servers are located in Californa, commit a crime someone particularly cares about, and we'll see how far that logic will get you.

heh, unless you release skins that cover every possible taste in skin consumers (that sounds wrong), then your friend is overreacting. Release as you will. Alternatively, price your release close to the market value.

1. Open a club yourself. Make it an OK-paying club to the dancers and escorts, but make the skins "no transfer" and give them to your employees, like a uniform.

2. Sell the skins anyway, you won't tank a market, just make it more competitive at the very worst.

3. Tell anyone who has a problem with you doing that they can buy the entire collection's originals for a large sum of Lindens, in a manner which makes them the only ones to have them, and see how dedicated they are to keeping their doors open.

Allison,

Under the assumption that your "Robin Hoodism" is an RL trait, not just an SL one, my suggestion is:

1. Charge SL market rate for your creations.
2. Take whatever SL dollars you make, convert them to RL dollars and donate them to your favorite charities or buy vitamins/healthy food to donate to your local food shelters.

ANYONE who is in SL is not even close to the poorest in RL. Truly poor people may not ever have touched a computer, let alone have the time and resources to play games or make a living from them.

In fact, if you are really serious, you could get very creative with this. Charge premium or more and adverstise that all profits will be donated to charity. Find someone to help you set up a website where you can sell your stuff as well as in-world. If you find a real pro, they might be able to set something up where you could list a variety of charities that your buyer could choose from and have the payment (or a portion thereof) go directly to the charity they choose. That alone might save you grief from the skeptics who would believe that you are just using it as a marketing ploy and really keeping the money for yourself.

The best, absolutely BEST thing about SL is that you are only limited by your own imagination. And I urge EVERYONE to practice random acts of kindness... both in SL and RL!

Thats nice but... we're out here. Just because I paid a lifetime subscription a few years ago doesnt mean I can throw money away on a game anymore. You may find quite a lot of different economic niches in sl. I for one am tired of trying to shop and finding things way out of my reach, then on top of that hearing someone saying "Why didnt you get it? Its only $USD XX!"

Not meant to be a rant at you in particular, just throwing some light on that "I have a hard time believing that someone who can afford to play SL can't afford to buy at least one premium skin. " We may save up for months to get that premium skin!

I havent read everyones replies, but basically your question comes down to this

Should I take away the ability of people who have spent a lot of time and money developing their skills, to earn an income which they need in RL,

In order to provide newbies to the game with the ability to look pretty and get a job as a prostitute or a stripper or just look good.

I would say the answer, morally, is that no you should not. it is not right to in a stroke destroy peoples abiltiy to maintain their income using a skill that they have spent ages perfecting.
4k for a skin isnt that expensive. And it is an investment.

I would say that a good compromise, would be this - Offer 2 of the skins - one male, and one female, to the market, at a low price. In essence you would be saying " I have made a base skin that is better than the lindens base skin, and everybody can have it. When you are ready, there are many other skins by other fine and talented creators on the market, but this will keep you from looking like a freak until then!"

Surely this would satisfy both your aims, providing newbies a cheap way to better their looks without destroying the market and incomes of people who rely on their skills.

Newbies havent spent time and effort perfecting a skill, as creators have. It is morally corrupt to take away from a group who have worked hard to achieve, and give what you have taken to a group who have done nothing to deserve it.

My point is that it is never morally correct to detract from one group to give to another, unless there is extreme injustice already in place, ie you are righting a situation which was unjust.

At the moment there is no unjustice with skins in secondlife. Newbies are issued a basic skin, they are free to choose to update it if they wish, or not to if they do not feel it is important.

So in answer, in my view, you should NOT market ALL your skins, but why not market one for each gender, as a cool replacement to the basic skin. Sell the rest of your skins at regular price in the same place and if you like, donate the money you make to a charity, and instead of something insignificant like giving newbies cheap skins you can actually make a REAL difference and SAVE REAL LIVES! Hows that for morality!

You should do what is best for you. Nobody and I say NOBODY cares or thinks about others in SL. It is always the bottom line or their own self desires. Just take a look at any of the three "mainland" areas. They quickly turn into UGLY blighted areas with stuff at all heights. Then the Security Script users say they use them because they can. I have been evicted off of my own land!

So if you read the other messages about "serving" the SL community. Don't you believe a word of it! Do what is best for yourself.

If you want to please the other residents, dont expect thanks. Expect to be told what you can do. The more you please them the tighter their grip will become!

I am a designer in game. I design clothing. I make NO money lol I spend more than I make. I do it for the learning experience and helping others. There aren't many that are willing to do nice things for new players because they are all out for themselves. I think it would be wonderful of you to do that. Why shouldnt everyone get to look lovely. Besides it's not like as soon as they make their first 1000 they wont go buy another. I know a player that buys a new skin everytime her favorite designer releases one hahaha so I dont think there would be any kind of undermining of ppl's business. Thank you for being so kind to players that's so great of you! There is one other designer in SL that I saw does the sme thing as you. If you look me up in game i'll give you her name. SHe's wonderful to new players and does the same thing as you. She helped me! Good luck hon I hope it works out for you *huggles*

I used to make a living making shapes being the first shape store in SL really. Of course a few made basic avatar/characters before. Now with the market and competition; I have to get a another job/field of work. Sales have been cut in half, land keeps going up. For those of us that do not have another source of income and affordablity of land rental/owning/tier fees/mortgage/utitlity bills etc. to worry about because they are a Chef or have another profession doesn't weigh as much on them; as far as newbies not being able to afford items here, this is an adult game and adults make adult pay..this game was designed with an economical system of real money exchange; if you can't afford U.S. $13.68 for a skin package or U.S. 1.71 and I hear others say newbies can't afford that at 500L so iam going to make mine 300L, excuse to undercut the market with disregard of the perception that newbies can't afford it, it's hogwash. Over 4 million people play World of Warcraft and spend U.S $60 dollars to buy 1000 gold just to play that game, Plus 15 dollars a month fee, and that has no age limit...if they can afford to do that there; then there's that perception down the drain. When shapes/skins/products get dirt cheap..that's just what you have, however; the bank that wants my mortgage payment every month, if I say..I think newbies can't afford this mortgage coming out of high school and should be cheaper; the bank isn't going to agree with that lol. Most of the time this excuse is based on 1. Greed and or to corner the market like Walmart or 2. It does't matter to them..they have other sources of income.

There's also the perception from some skin designers since I have endorced them and they got the bighead and think skins are very difficult to make with quality that shapes aren't. Well If I work on a shape for 3 to 7 days and get to the point where it is not worth my time to keep producing muchless paying tier fee, what will happen is just like any other business 1. Downsize or 2. Go out of business from saturation and market decay 3. Get a job where all your time is taken up and not have the time, either way; basic business principles come into play; Income and Expense, when Income doesn't exceed expense, it's over...you are basically game Bankrupt if you only call this a game. I call it a Virtual World with a real economy..lets be honest; designing items is work, I never thought work was alot of fun when I could be out with my girl or having a brewsky or family time. THE NEWBIE EXCUSE IS OLD! Inflation goes up 5 to 7% a year, does your paycheck? If so; feel lucky.

As someone who has been in sales and marketing for 13 years...

there is nothing more damaging to an industry than underselling fair market value. It might not have an immediate impact... but releasing a high-end skinset for WAY below the price range of equal quality... will hurt the market. Not a matter of debate... it's how it is.

It's always best to be competitive... but fair. That means fair to the consumer... and fair to the market.

The question is, is the current skin price fair?

Well, the general rule of thumb...

Charge what the market can handle... if people are willing to pay L$4000 for a skin... the price is fair. If someone comes along and charges L$100 for the same quality skin, 2 things will happen.

1) The product is devaluated, and LL might as well just package that quality of skin as the default skin.

2) The people who rely on their sales to pay their tier, rent, and other expenses lose a lot of income. Those people are no longer putting their L$ back into the economy... because they have far less to contribute. Even if they sell their L$ on the market... there is less to buy, thus driving the price up for L$, which again, causes less L$ to enter the economy.

When I decided to buy my skin, I freaked when I saw they were L$1200 - L$4000 a pop for the decent ones. So... I started building/scripting to generate the income I needed. I provided products which earned me the L$ I needed, and I bought the skin. Now, I have what I wanted... *and* I have income.

It is true... there are a lot of people that would like to strip/escort, and it is far more difficult to be successful in those lines of profession with a generic skin. But... that does not mean the prices of quality products should be lowered... it means those people need to do what everyone else does. Get a cheap version, and work your way up.

People put far too much time and hard work into quality products to sell them for crap-quality pricing. Another consideration... price slicing can carry over into other industries as well. The less people can sell their items for, the less motivation people will have to make items. Again, a negative impact on the market at large.

Just my L$0.02, for what it's worth.

And you still haven't said anything about whether the current price is "fair" or not.

Sure I did... my whole reply was my answer.

Whether the price is fair or not is relative to whether people are willing to pay it, and the level of quality of the product. You can't ask if a price is fair without knowing how much work goes into the production of the product, and the level of quality of the product, and the current average price.

If you have 10 different vendors selling a product... and they are selling a product of the same quality for between L$1200 - L$1500... selling yours for L$100 is not only damaging to your potential profit... but it will devaluate the product... and tell the market that you don't think *yours* is worth as much.

Another interesting nugget...

Market research shows, that if you sell a product for *far* below the price of similar products... regardless of quality... your product will never be given the same value as the more expensive version. The perception is that if it costs *that* much less... it must be crap.

Some people try to make money in SL, some try to cover their tiers and subscription, some dont care and others keep paying just to have fun.
If someone is making skins and using the money to pay their subscription they should go ahead. But there are a LOT of ppl that do things for free or for fun in SL.
If someone is making skins/scripts/clothing because he/she likes to do that, and is proud that other people wil use/wear it I dont see a point in selling it cheap.

As for the people that say "if you pay for SL, you can afford L$4000 for a skin, because it's only $16": I do a lot of newbie helping in SL. What if I would say to a newbie: "hey, I could help you grasp the basics of SL, but if you like it and stay here, you have to pay me L$4000, because that's only $16 and that's a fair price for the time and effort I made to get you going"

What do you mean, I cant charge newbies for teaching them?
How should I pay my tier? It's my only SL income! What? Others are asking NOTHING to help a newbie? That's ruining the market!

Maybe I should charge residents that make top level products. Because if it hadnt been for me (and lots of others, mentors, instructors, fun helpers) there would be nobody for them to sell to.
So, if you sell stuff for over L$ 1000, please pay me 1 % of each sale to help the newbies. Ill even give them a LM to your store
And Allison, dont sit on balls to make money.. it's such a waste of your time and creativity. .. Ill pay you some so you can continue your work...

I don't think Linux is that much worse then Windows. I dont think the Gimp is that bad if you compare it to Photoshop. I like Firefox much better then Internet Explorer.
If you are talking about physical products you might be right. But when you talk about software (and I consider a skin software), you have the same production costs wether you sell 1 item or thousands. A part of the market reads reviews and tries stuff, and if it's better, they will use it.. even if it's free or cheap.

Not exactly sure how helping newbies, and establishing a price for a product translate to the same thing.

I personally have no issue donating my time to help newbies. But if I spend 20-30 hours building something, I am going to charge what I can for my time and efforts. They are two different worlds, as far as I am concerned.

I'd prefer to keep the conversation from becoming adversarial... flaming a forum is just another form of griefing.

If you know of and/or shop at WalMart you'll know that they compete primarily on price. (for international readers: WalMart is a large retailer in North America that sells everyday items at very low prices).

How many businesses have gone under as a result of WalMart moving into their area? Lots. How many bunsesses have become better as a result of competing with WalMart? Lots. How many of those businesses does WalMart care about? None.

Everyone tries to make money their own way - be it selling Freebies or selling expensive items for less. I make and purposely sell items for at least 50% off prices I see at other stores. I have learned my own lessons about the market and have made adjustments based on my understanding.

You'll be a success and learn from the overall experience. As others have mentioned, you're not going to bring down a part of the SL economy - there is a lot of choice in SL. Price how you want and you'll carve out your own niche...having your own niche is more valuable since you'll have only yourself to compete against.

Besides, as any business person knows too - diversify your sources of income to even things out. I also rent property and apartments, and have other sources of income. I can price aggressively when I need to because I have those other sources. In the end, the customer wins - newbie or not.

Good luck - tell me where I can get your skins - I'll get one for myself and refer my friends too.

Hey... I use OpenOffice rather than MS Office. There is nothing wrong with opensource. I do not, however, think of a skin as software. I look at it more like artwork. Textures, to me, are more of an artistic endeavor than coding something. But that's me. And... my postings here are just my observations from RL sales and marketing mixed with a little dash of "different perspective".

I'm not going to freak out if the skins are given away or sold for less... though personally, I would charge a fair market price. Afterall, part of the model of SL is to allow people the opportunity to have a business in a digital environment. One of the draws for me.

WalMart is evil on wheels.

You make some good points, and I certainly agree with diversification. There is strength in diversity.

I see suggestions being made that one has some sort of "duty to the market" as opposed to other people.

Nobody has a "duty to the market". It is probably a bad idea to release products at a low or free price if you are thinking of then putting out other products later on and making lots of money, but nobody has a duty to sell at any price. If someone enjoys making skins, doesn't care about making money and likes to see people happy and wearing their skins, why shouldn't they do so? Why should they price-fix?

"Fair market value" is an oxymoron; "fair" is an moral judgement and market value doesn't have any connection with morals.

My product would be helping newbies. It's a service, like a kindergarten teacher, an escort service or selling land. I'm good at it, and I do it a lot.
Unlike a skin, I can't upload it once, duplicate it and sell multiple instances.
It's still a product, and untill now I gave it away for free. But if I understand you correctly this isnt a product I could charge people for, just because others do it for free?

Sure you could... if you wish.

I am not calling for a massive requirement on the establishment of pricing... not by any stretch of the imagination. Just offering a perspective from my RL sales/marketing experience.

It is a free market... charge what you wish for what you have. As long as the price matches the quality, you won't be cheating yourself or your clients. There is nothing evil about making a fair profit.

I do disagree that we don't have some responsibility to maintain a healthy market, however. Maintaining business practices which cause a negative change to the economy will only hurt everyone in the long run.

Happens all the time in RL. This isn't RL, of course, but that doesn't mean some of the same rules don't always apply.

First of all lets define "Newbie". 1. Newbie: Someone new to a game. 2. Newbie doesn't mean "Poor" adults play this game. 3. Over 1 year ago the average person in SL spent $86 u.s. dollars per month in this game. Being a newbie has nothing to do with affordability. If you play SL expect to make and spend money just like in real life or any other game like World of Warcraft. WoW has over 4 million subscribers and spend more money there believe me and the minimum age isn't 18.

Who's to say a "Newbie" can or cannot afford 100L even? Who's to say they can't afford 4000L? If a teenager can go out and buy a case of Budwiser or and Ounce of Pot, why can't they afford 16 u.s. dollars for a skin or 1000L for a decent shape? Degredation of market value stems from "Greed" of competition and monopoly thinking they will sell more quantity than a competitor.

I have endorced and promoted a certain skin designers products since he started and now he chooses to use another shaper and my prices are undercut. It is getting to the point where it's becoming an Auction House and a sea of competition which is ok, but; deliberately undercutting the market for ones own greed and no market control is simply going to make everything worthless. It's about supply and demand, if supply outweighs demand what do you have? Very little sales. As I've been seeing it, supply is starting to outweigh demand I don't know about skinners but; my sales have dropped 50%.

Want to help a newbie? Help me..iam less than a newbie with making skins, I know nothing about it...teach me and I will use fair market value, I don't think many would go out of their way to do this..nuff said lol.

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