Anti-American sentiment in SL forums
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Picabo Hedges
Second Life Resident
Join date: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 262
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04-02-2006 12:04
From: Hiro Queso I can only speak as a Brit living in the UK. I don't see any opinions of those around me shaped by History, I only see opinions shaped by what's happening 'today'. Some of those are wise enough to realise that a nations direction is decided by the few, some unfortunately aren't.
And yes it's to be expected, just like the reverse is expected, in fact just like any form of racism is to be expected. I have been on the receiving end more than one occassion from anti-brit mentality in SL, but I just brush it aside and head off to join my American friends.
I just feel a lot of these sentiments intensely frustrating. A lot of it I just do not get, I guess I assumed it was the way 'older' generations thought. I think it's just like skin colour racism, most young or youngish people are colour blind, yet we have all met the older men and women that have unbelievably racist views. Sorry.... not to be pedantic nor personally insulting but it seems you are living in a bit of a dream world. You honestly believe people's opinions are based only on what's happening today? You ARE kidding, right? Have you read the paper lately? Heard about the riots in France? Do you honestly think that THAT situation is a result solely of even just the actions and polcies of the last 365 days in France? Come on. You certainly can't honestly believe that. Memories, real and imagined, have lives of their own and affect real world and SL attitudes and actions. |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
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04-02-2006 12:06
From: Hiro Queso I can understand why you would feel that way Cristiano, but would you push against a racist? I know you have stated that you have spoken out against racism in general, but is there really any point in trying to reason with a racist? Yeah, I definitely think there is value in it. Change starts with individuals, and finding mutual understanding and common ground. You know, the whole "be the change you wish to see in the world" thing. You aren't going to fundamentally change people, but if you can make one person stop and think about their actions and look at it in a different light, it's worth it. Yeah, some people have biases that are so deep seated nothing anyone says with change their mind, but I don't think it is a fool's errand to at least try. If nothing else, we can show each other mutual respect. They may still think all Americans are lazy fucktards, but it doesn't mean they have to spout that off in the forums.
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Hiro Queso
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Join date: 23 Feb 2005
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04-02-2006 12:08
From: Picabo Hedges Sorry.... not to be pedantic nor personally insulting but it seems you are living in a bit of a dream world.
You honestly believe people's opinions are based only on what's happening today? You ARE kidding, right? Have you read the paper lately? Heard about the riots in France? Do you honestly think that THAT situation is a result solely of even just the actions and polcies of the last 365 days in France? Come on. You certainly can't honestly believe that.
Memories, real and imagined, have lives of their own and affect real world and SL attitudes and actions. Of course not! I *am* aware that what goes before affects today. But I think that's a little different to forming opinions on a race of people based on some war that happened before we were born. |
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Picabo Hedges
Second Life Resident
Join date: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 262
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04-02-2006 12:10
From: Cristiano Midnight I agree with your reasons why it is to be expected - but it doesn't mean it has to be tolerated, or not pushed back against. Likewise, it doesn't mean it DOES have to be pushed back against. Personally, as a flag-waving, Christian conservative, Republican voting American, I find most of the political threads in these forums painfully pedantic and ideologic with little to no chance of honest discussion. For that matter, no amount of discussion on these forums, however frank and open, will actually have an ounce of measurable effect in the real world. As has been pointed out by others in this thread already, occasionally seemingly intelligent people seem to have an ability to become "stupid" - and act thusly. Anti-American posturing and posting on these forums is merely one example. |
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Champie Jack
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Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
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04-02-2006 12:23
From: Picabo Hedges Likewise, it doesn't mean it DOES have to be pushed back against.
Personally, as a flag-waving, Christian conservative, Republican voting American, I find most of the political threads in these forums painfully pedantic and ideologic with little to no chance of honest discussion. For that matter, no amount of discussion on these forums, however frank and open, will actually have an ounce of measurable effect in the real world.
As has been pointed out by others in this thread already, occasionally seemingly intelligent people seem to have an ability to become "stupid" - and act thusly.
Anti-American posturing and posting on these forums is merely one example. I disagree with the "no ounce of measurable effect" I'm NOT stating that any SL Forum discussion HAS had a measurable effect in the real world, but I do think any RW effect comes from cumulative actions and ideas, not just some idea or action expressed once, resulting in effect. So, while the SL forum may not have contributed one ounce of measurable effect to date, all discussion is valuable, even if it serves only to demonstrate how ignorant we all are. |
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Picabo Hedges
Second Life Resident
Join date: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 262
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04-02-2006 12:29
From: Hiro Queso Of course not! I *am* aware that what goes before affects today. But I think that's a little different to forming opinions on a race of people based on some war that happened before we were born. Okay then.. humor me.. what was your previous point again? Mine was Anti-Americanism in the forums is to be expected. My reasoning for that opinion was illustrated via argumentation by psycho-historical example. I ask again, what was your point with respect to any comments you made about my point? (especially since "Americans" aren't a "race" by any definiton I know) |
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Noh Rinkitink
Just some Nohbody
Join date: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 572
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04-02-2006 12:35
From: Champie Jack I disagree with the "no ounce of measurable effect"
I'm NOT stating that any SL Forum discussion HAS had a measurable effect in the real world, but I do think any RW effect comes from cumulative actions and ideas, not just some idea or action expressed once, resulting in effect.
So, while the SL forum may not have contributed one ounce of measurable effect to date, all discussion is valuable, even if it serves only to demonstrate how ignorant we all are. The cynic in me wants to point out how little online arguments (not discussions... think Twain's differentiation between the two) has little effect beyond online flamefests. It's far easier to go in a forum or on a newsgroup and bitchwhinemoan about something you (generic "you"  don't like (in practice, as often as not by reflexive reaction, without full or significant understanding of the specifics) than to, you know, actually take some offline effort in support of your position. (And that's not even paying attention to the umpteen zillion online petitions for various things, none of which have ever gotten anywhere because those who have the required influence aren't swayed by a list of e-mail addresses that could have well been taken from some spammer's "Millions" address list CD.) |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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04-02-2006 12:35
From: Picabo Hedges Okay then.. humor me.. what was your previous point again? Mine was Anti-Americanism in the forums is to be expected. My reasoning for that opinion was illustrated via argumentation by psycho-historical example.
Understanding and illustrating the mistakes of mankind committed throughout history does not mean we should all shrug our shoulders and complacently express that "That's just the way it is folks." That is stagnant thinking IMHO. If no one ever pushed back, just think of where we would be today. I won't just discard the progress made via learning from our mistakes (which must needs have pushing back at the forefront), just because some people harbor old prejudices. To do so is to ignore a very valuable portion of our collective history as human beings, and a recipe for future disasters of our own crafting.
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Hiro Queso
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04-02-2006 12:41
From: Picabo Hedges Okay then.. humor me.. what was your previous point again? Mine was Anti-Americanism in the forums is to be expected. My reasoning for that opinion was illustrated via argumentation by psycho-historical example.
I ask again, what was your point with respect to any comments you made about my point?
(especially since "Americans" aren't a "race" by any definiton I know) I use the term 'race' in it's broadest terms, if nothing else but to make it less wordy. Read race as 'people of a nation'. I agreed that is to be expected. I disagree with your reasoning for it's presence being based on historical events. For example, I am yet to meet anyone in the UK or elsewhere in europe that displays aresentment for a rising power, as you suggest. As someone who also has French and German blood, my family have been fighting against each other for thousands of years. I'm sorry, it all seems a bit way out there to me. |
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Cocoanut Cookie
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Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
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04-02-2006 12:43
From: Cristiano Midnight Why is it perfectly acceptable to bash an entire group of people over and over again in these forums? Arrogant, lazy, stupid - those are just the nicer things that get said about Americans by some non-American SL residents. Whether it is complaining about what time something is scheduled, how a message is worded, or something even as innocuous as a "what major events have happened since your birth" thread (with a list containing things like Princess Diana's death and the fall of the Berlin Wall among things like 9/11 and the Challenger explosion) all get met with posts about how self-involved Americans are , how there is more to the world than the US, how stupid Americans are, blah blah blah.
I am not from the US originally - I became a citizen as an adult and lived half of my life in Venezuela. I have been on the other side and seen the US from outside the US, and still I don't understand bashing an entire group of people. America, like any country, has its flaws, and Americans, like any country, are wildly different - not one collective hive mind. That type of nationalism is just divisive and does nothing to help. SL is without borders - it is one giant world, yet you couldn't tell that with how people act in the forums. Those with some attitude about Americans, get over yourself - it is not like your country is any better - and you don't represent your country, only yourself. Without having read any more of this thread, I just want to say that is very well put indeed! STANDING ROUND OF APPLAUSE!!
Coco P.S. I would also like to point out that some of the parameters given by Americans in this thread as to what makes other Americans "okay" - totally and frankly sucks. I.E., "Hey, we hate our country, too ,we hate Bush, we're not conservative, etc." The strength of the U.S. comes in the ability to have and express all those views without penalty. So spare me the sucking up to people who are anti-U.S. by pointing out how much you agree with them, in order to prove that "some of us" are okay. How terribly spineless. |
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Picabo Hedges
Second Life Resident
Join date: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 262
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04-02-2006 12:47
From: Nolan Nash Understanding and illustrating the mistakes of mankind committed throughout history does not mean we should all shrug our shoulders and complacently express that "That's just the way it is folks." That is stagnant thinking IMHO. If no one ever pushed back, just think of where we would be today. I won't just discard the progress made via learning from our mistakes (which must needs have pushing back at the forefront), just because some people harbor old prejudices. To do so is to ignore a very valuable portion of our collective history as human beings, and a recipe for future disasters of our own crafting. Uh huh. If I "pushed back" against the subject of this thread, Anti-Americanism in the forums, as you and others imply might be justified or expected, I could expect (based on my experiences thus far in these forums), to be villified and ultimately shunned, suspended and perhaps banned from SL entirely. So... I took the perspective of not engaging in "is it right or wrong". Instead, I expressed my opinion that there is ample historical reason to expect it to occur. What did you do in the post above? And what does it have to do with Anti-Americanism in these forums? Are you condoning it, decrying it, explaining why it exists or just taking a shallow potshot to try to stir up shit? |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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04-02-2006 13:03
From: Picabo Hedges Uh huh.
If I "pushed back" against the subject of this thread, Anti-Americanism in the forums, as you and others imply might be justified or expected, I could expect (based on my experiences thus far in these forums), to be villified and ultimately shunned, suspended and perhaps banned from SL entirely. So... I took the perspective of not engaging in "is it right or wrong". Instead, I expressed my opinion that there is ample historical reason to expect it to occur.
What did you do in the post above? And what does it have to do with Anti-Americanism in these forums? Are you condoning it, decrying it, explaining why it exists or just taking a shallow potshot to try to stir up shit? No, I pointed out that your "ho-hum, it's to be expected" attitude is but one factor that helped allow many forms of oppression to occur throughout history. But since you want to get personal now, and dredge up whatever it is your dredging up paranoid-by-proxy crap about being "shunned" and so forth, have at it. I will withdraw from engaging you because you are displaying that it's your way or the highway (in this case the "highway" being "oh but look at history, it's to be expected" nonsense), and that you think you can define the human condition oh-so-much better than all the rest of us. I am not interested in one-sided discourse, but thanks for your input.
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Picabo Hedges
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Join date: 12 Nov 2004
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04-02-2006 13:08
From: Nolan Nash No, I pointed out that your "ho-hum, it's to be expected" attitude is but one factor that helped allow many forms of oppression to occur throughout history.
But since you want to get personal now,...but thanks for your input. Uh huh. Right. You can't respond directly to my question - "what did your post ADD" so you insult me and then accuse me of getting personal. Right. Next. |
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Cocoanut Cookie
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Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
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04-02-2006 13:14
And P.S. While I'm on the subject - though I don't care to involve myself in political or religious topics - I will go so far as to point out that people who put down other peoples' cultures are provincial in the extreme. There almost IS no culture that isn't fascinating and worthy of respect and interest.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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04-02-2006 13:16
From: Picabo Hedges Uh huh.
Right. You can't respond directly to my question - "what did your post ADD" so you insult me and then accuse me of getting personal. Right.
Next. Ni Ni Alty.
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Midnite Rambler
Registered Aussie
Join date: 13 May 2005
Posts: 146
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04-02-2006 13:19
Just throwing my two cents in here on this topic.
From an outside the US point of view, I guess we see such hubris from some Americans such as that America is "God's Own Country" whatever that means, that somehow America's national days are more important than any other countries, that America has World Cups, where America is the only participant, that Americans in a very general sense of the term have little or no knowledge of countries outside their own (as if the rest of the world isn't guilty of this too), etc.
Fade was quite correct that in Australia there is a very stong anti-American sentiment, dating back many years. Not all Australians subscribe to this. And lets face it, most have probably never talked with an American, as they are not exactly common here. But there is a resentment based on a perception that Australia regularly gets the short end of the stick in US International policy, and Trade agreements. And older Australians have watched as our country has become more and more Americanised, and generally don't like it.
For whatever reason, Americans make up the largest percentage of english speaking internet users. So consequentially, the rest of the world sees itself as a minority on the internet. With that comes a certain resentment of the all dominant internet culture by the rest of the world (broad generalisation here, and not one I neccessarily hold personally).
Midnite
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Tren Neva
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Join date: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 619
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04-02-2006 13:23
After reading a few post in the SL forum, I think its silly to take anyone here seriously even when they are trying to be serious. Plus, it's a silly topic to debate about in the first place. If the sterotype doesn't describe who you are, then it shouldn't matter to you. If it does describe you, then they are just telling the truth and it shouldn't matter. Besides, you can't take another culture and try to compare it your own, specially when you can't understand why that culture does what it does. If you start taking the ignorant seriously, then you are just encouraging them to talk more.
North Americans enjoy civilized social interactions and world peace, where Europeans like shooting each other and eating babies. It's just the cultures we were raised in.
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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04-02-2006 13:26
From: Tren Neva
North Americans enjoy civilized social interactions and world peace, where Europeans like shooting each other and eating babies. It's just the cultures we were raised in.
errrr no. You have that the wrong way round! We eat each other and shoot babies |
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Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
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04-02-2006 13:27
Making sweeping comments about an entire nationality of people is no less ignorant or bigoted than making them about an entire ethnicity of people, or gender, or class... etc. Every country has its derogitory stereotypes, some based in truth, and most exaggerated to the point of ridiculousness. Anyone who can't recognize that another country's stereotypes probably hold no truer than their own, is an ignorant bigot.
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Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
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04-02-2006 13:29
I agree with Nolan. Is there some reason why we should expect and tolerate anti-American sentiments in the forums, without comment, while you know we would not allow, say, anti-Sweden remarks to pass without comment?
Why not, then, just expect and tolerate racist remarks as well?
coco
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Tren Neva
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2004
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04-02-2006 13:30
From: Hiro Queso errrr no. You have that the wrong way round! We eat each other and shoot babies YOU MONSTERS! |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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04-02-2006 14:09
From: Torrid Midnight After all I did vote for Bush AND I'm religious  . GOP in da hizzouse! 
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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Magnum Serpentine
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,811
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04-02-2006 14:41
From: Cristiano Midnight Why is it perfectly acceptable to bash an entire group of people over and over again in these forums? Arrogant, lazy, stupid - those are just the nicer things that get said about Americans by some non-American SL residents. Whether it is complaining about what time something is scheduled, how a message is worded, or something even as innocuous as a "what major events have happened since your birth" thread (with a list containing things like Princess Diana's death and the fall of the Berlin Wall among things like 9/11 and the Challenger explosion) all get met with posts about how self-involved Americans are , how there is more to the world than the US, how stupid Americans are, blah blah blah.
I am not from the US originally - I became a citizen as an adult and lived half of my life in Venezuela. I have been on the other side and seen the US from outside the US, and still I don't understand bashing an entire group of people. America, like any country, has its flaws, and Americans, like any country, are wildly different - not one collective hive mind. That type of nationalism is just divisive and does nothing to help. SL is without borders - it is one giant world, yet you couldn't tell that with how people act in the forums. Those with some attitude about Americans, get over yourself - it is not like your country is any better - and you don't represent your country, only yourself. I was not so critical of the United States, until Boy George W. Bush stole the election through Voter Fraud and incompetence of the United States Supreme Court. I am not sure when I will have a good thing to say about this battered nation of ours but when we elect a Democrat for President, that will go a long way to changing my views |
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Magnum Serpentine
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,811
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04-02-2006 14:42
From: Enabran Templar GOP in da hizzouse! Boo Hissss Boy George W. Bush |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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04-02-2006 14:44
From: Magnum Serpentine Boo Hissss Boy George W. Bush Boo all you want -- he got the two terms we needed. 
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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