Anti-American sentiment in SL forums

I haven't figured that out yet... it could be a pissing contest

Nah, we both said exactly the same thing. You just used more words to state plainly what was already implied in my statement.
That Asimov reference, is that from the Foundation books? (could never get through those )

Well, good job, guys. Now I really, really want some Marmite, and the nearest source I'm aware of is an hour away.

No, no Vegemite in the neighborhood, either.

Woah there. Re-read my post. Re-read the section you quoted. I never spoke for all Australians. I simply said there's a strong anti-American sentiment here. There is. Not a majority view, just a common view. (edit: not my view, but my comments were based on things I often hear)
How is that "speaking for all Australians? I didn't say "I'm Australian and I can tell you all Australians are anti-American".
I think I can safely observe a "strong sentiment" in the country I live in. That doesn't translate as "all Australian's have a strong anti-US sentiment". So you came here a couple of weeks ago... I've been here 36 years. I think I have more to base my observations on.
Once again, at what point did I speak for all Australians?

Oh come now Aaron, we know that those you've referenced are all ass-kissers because of the money they are getting from Kraft Foods!

Just as will the global resentment towards Nestle' Foods having it's fingers in every nook and cranny makes many people resent Switzerland... oh wait, nevermind...

/tongue in cheek

I agree with those who have pointed out that if Americans decided to generalize about another nation on these boards, especially on a consistent basis, there would be hell to pay.

LL can't even schedule an update without pissing people off all over the globe because it wasn't done to fit their time zone. Let's make them keep employees up for 24 hours so that everytime zone can have their update while they are at work during the day. What's that you say? Not everyone in every time zone works daylight hour jobs? *Smacks forehead*

SL's American userbase is far and away not a bunch of "rednecks" who cannot see beyond their own noses. You will find a concentration of Americans here that can't stand their own government and are very vocal to that end. You will find that many of them have international ties, are well educated, have done quite a bit of traveling, and pay attention to world events, and not just via American news outlets.

Ultra-Conservative, uber-patriotic Americans are not the norm when examining Americans as a whole in SL, so I don't understand why the SL forums become the pulpit for a few folks with an obvious extreme distaste for Americans in general. There are many places on the net that would serve as much better venues for such posts (hell, even OT would be better), where they wouldn't chip away at the feeling of immersion in a community that has no borders. That is what I adore about SL first and foremost, and it really disturbs me to see people drag that crap into the forums or the game, be they American or Non-American.

It would be nice if the majority of decent Americans in SL didn't have to pay the price for the few idiots that do reside here (who generally run for the fallout shelter eventually, because they are bomarded mercilessly by many of their own countrymen for blind, bigoted, and nationalistic patriotism), but that is obviously wishful thinking, as some non-American residents apparently cannot resist the urge to employ their double-standards by making sweeping generalizations, whenever anything they see as even remotely Ameri-centric pops up.

I can't believe I am hearing "Oh, but generalizing about a person is not ok, but generalizing about an entire group is." Wtf is that all about? Generalizing is never a good thing, and generalizing about entire groups is behavior which has generated many oppressions, and cost millions and millions of lives in human history. And just how do you generalize about an individual anyway, without making a statement about thier culture? "Oh Bob over there looks like a redneck" -- that thinking comes from a broader generalization about Bob's culture. I really cannot believe I am seeing intelligent people excuse or defend generalizations.

Accepting that they exist, trying to understand and express why they exist, as Selador did quite well, without the nuance of enmity that some of you seem to be entirely unable to avoid, is wonderful. Bravo Selador.

Yep.

I'm not surprised you chimed in and recognized yourself in what I was commenting on, it is very squarely centered at you. You have a been a frequent anti-American poster in these forums. Thanks by the way for butchering my name on your post.



You quoted what I said as some kind of example of a double standard, but I am not bashing Europeans anywhere in what yuou quoted. I commented that SL is based in the US, and it is unreasonable to expect their employees to move their update schedule around to accomodate their convenience. If LL were in London I would say the same thing in reverse to someone in California bitching about it. The OP original concept was that Europeans were being "screwed over" by this, which was a ridiculous notion, also in my opinion.



Ah so you put forethought into the blanket statements you make, that is much better. At least you do draw the line at race. Except no group collectively acts the same. The US, for example, is completely polarized on most issues, including our leadership. Yet you have us all in lock step with one another as we cheer on the colonization of the rest of the world one McDonalds at a time.



Wow I can't remember the last time our entire country got together and all said "hey, we're Americans". Again, how is that any different than "hey, we're Asian" or "hey, we're black". It's just pointless to generalize about someone's behavior. People are arrogant because they are arrogant, not because they are American.

Just to check, are you fine with "In general, the [insert country] are just whiny idiots" or "I know I am generalizing, the [insert other country] are all just nasty losers"? Generalizations are fun!



Interesting, so this means it is futile to try to stop this problem, on both sides, right? I don't have to be American, or British, or Japanese to stand up about this kind of stuff. Second Life gives us a chance to make a world that transcends the one we have now, yet time and again we still get caught up in the same petty bullshit from RL, especially in these forums.

As far as racism, I have been one of the most outspoken people about racism in SL in these forums, having experienced it several times myself in SL. Not sure who you are targetting that at. I've also stood up to it when used about people of religious faith as well, and would do the same if someone started a thread or made a post about Canadians or British or Koreans or whomever. My point is that this goes on over and over. If you see a problem with Europeans being bashed, then speak up about it - I am speaking up about one side of this from my perspective.



Advice best taken yourself as well. Wow, the entire United States has a single, collective attitude huh? The last time I checked, your goverment is quite complicit in what is going on in the world at the moment. Yet you are no more responsible for your foreign policy than we are. We are all just people - marginalizing and labelling a group is a way of dividing people, not bringing them together.

Gah these threads always really suck. Both the anti-american and the anti-rest of the world posts make me cringe. The sad thing is that normally level headed intelligent people get drawn into an exaggerated out of character response.

If you are anti-american or anti-rest of the world, SL must really suck for you.

And in response to someone quoting my 'anti-european post', yes I am very much English.

You know Cris, I see it a lot and I hear it a lot. I came to the states in my teen years with a very wrong view of Americans (thanks to mum) and quickly realized the crap I'd been fed. I am very glad that I live here and consider myself blessed every day. I have had to learn to let certain comments roll off my back and not effect me. After all I did vote for Bush AND I'm religious .

It's as though people suddenly love Americans when it's convenient to do so. My father is italian and I remember my grandmother visiting a couple of times. She would bash America half the time she was here but when she found out my father was getting his own company she couldn't stop with how glad she was he came to the states, "land of opportunity" and all that sort of thing.

America is a land of many races and cultures and there is so much to learn from one another. I can go to a Native American festival, then eat at an amazing Greek restaurant owned and operated by a family that worked very hard to get here, and finish off the night with friends at the pub where the owner shares stories of her life in Ireland and how she came to the states.

Choosing to jump on the "anti-american" bandwagon because it's just what everyone does or because you hate the government screams ignorance. You're looking at a sea of different faces but only seeing one.

I guess I'm only arrogant half of the time, because I'm a dual citizen, 50% US, 50% UK. Now, to figure out which is the arrogant half...

Regards,

-Flip

You still love me!!! *cries*

Picabo....

You're knowledge and wisdom will get you nowhere in a thread such as this....

Arguments must be based on emotion and ignorance, don't you know that?

Champie

You go girl

How rude.....

Though I would still have to disagree. I think that basing your opinions of a nation's people on it's history is pretty ignorant; not only was it before our time, it was created by a few decision makers in power. We live in the 'now', not the 'then'; the world is populated by completely different people. If you (general you) want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at the few in power that are creating tomorrow's history, not the people who happen to reside in that nation.

Are fun.

People who take the time to post here expressing Anti-American sentiment are disenfranchised. They aren't able to affect perhaps the most powerful element shaping their world, but they can speak here and vent. That's okay.

The fact is the US itself is an amalgam of 290 million people making individual choices every day. The President, love or hate him, is just a man. His name has been Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush but still just a limited, not so omniscient human being. (He has at times in the past perhaps been a more eloquent speaker.)

AS a human being, advised by other limited human beings, he tries in his best way to make the right decisions. Still, he's only turning the tiller of the Titanic...its basically going where it was going anyway. Sometimes a decision must be made, knowing that it will be savaged by either one side or the other. There is no "right answer."

That being said, in my years as a combat pilot I've seen war and almost been killed as a result of those decisions. Leaders make decisions, that's what they do. In our system we have a chance to change leaders every 4 years.

Now, the Pax Americana only exists because the majority of the people around the world tolerate it...it's better for them than the alternative. (Perhaps now there is no alternative...) In 20 years that will probably be different. (For those that dislike not having a say in affairs and express it in this forum, I'm sure the situation will be much better when you can type Chinese to appeal to the humanity and good nature of liberal power that aspires to replace the flawed, unfair, and evil American engineered system.)

Please don't get me wrong...I dislike the things about American influcence in the world also. I don't like seeing Coke machines in Saudi Arabia, but the fact is those machines (and MacDonalds) are there because the people want them...just like they are here. The products are good products. They are no more American than the weather that comes out of North America. BP stations are all across the US. Do I care? Do they give me cheaper gas..that's what I care about.

For better or worse, the world system is like weather...a prevailing pattern of alliances, interconnections and decisions. I'm American, but I don't control my country. So comment away and talk, but always remember that people are people, and nations are constructs that live in our minds. They won't last forever.

You obviously missed the point - which was that it seems that humans tend NOT to do as you prefer that is, to THINK. Rather, they harbor resentments even over things that happened before their great-grandparents were born and bring those resentments into the formulation of their dreams for tomorrow. Today was not created by today's decsionmakers alone - rather it is a function of yesterday's decisons and actions interacting with today's actions and decisions also interacting with unspoken hopes, dreams, jealousies, petty hurts and imagined pains.

So disagree all you want. Anti-Americanism in these forums is to be expected IMHO. My posts explain my position why that is - not whether or not it is "correct" to be so.

exactly..

but, Hiro, if you want to think this is all about George Bush, go ahead.

I can only speak as a Brit living in the UK. I don't see any opinions of those around me shaped by History, I only see opinions shaped by what's happening 'today'. Some of those are wise enough to realise that a nations direction is decided by the few, some unfortunately aren't.

And yes it's to be expected, just like the reverse is expected, in fact just like any form of racism is to be expected. I have been on the receiving end more than one occassion from anti-brit mentality in SL, but I just brush it aside and head off to join my American friends.

I just feel a lot of these sentiments intensely frustrating. A lot of it I just do not get, I guess I assumed it was the way 'older' generations thought. I think it's just like skin colour racism, most young or youngish people are colour blind, yet we have all met the older men and women that have unbelievably racist views.

The world is a computer, and it lags.

People still whine about the British Empire's legacy. So what? Those people aren't around anymore. Here's a nice experiment recently done.

Researchers showed test subjects a bunch of pictures of people. They were asked to rate how attractive they were (not why.)

Then the researchers brought them back a week or so later and asked them to explain their ratings. The subjects did.

But...the researchers actually changed the pictures in the meantime, yet the people still justified why they rated them as they did. (Even though they didn't actually rate them that way!)

People make a judgment then justify it without critical reexamination. Changing a decision causes a person to lose face in the group or open oneself up to charges of vacillation or weakness. That is why we pursue criminal actions against Germany or Japan, or honor our dead war criminal ancestors. Its why we pursue failed policies or bankrupt our nations, or why we have to invoke nationality or race or religion when we talk. It's why we become defensive when someone blankets us as "American idiots" or "anti-Americans."

The past like one's nationality is beyond people's control...but they'll justify whatever they've done because its survival instinct. Don't invoke that instinct by inflamatory language and things become much more managable and hospitable.

I agree with your reasons why it is to be expected - but it doesn't mean it has to be tolerated, or not pushed back against.

I can understand why you would feel that way Cristiano, but would you push against a racist? I know you have stated that you have spoken out against racism in general, but is there really any point in trying to reason with a racist?

Of course, we're just as crap at history as anyone else, and it's hardly as if anything past WW2 is routinely taught in schools - potentially controversial. (Or, for that matter, much about the British Empire, leaving a sense that actually it was all about going round and teaching the fuzzy-wuzzies about democracy and civilisation rather than, say, being a massive rapacious commercial exploitation programme.)

edit: and there is certainly a rational reason for people to feel hard done by given historical events, because we still benefit from them and they still have the fallout to deal with.

I understand your sentiment myself, although I do get a strong feeling that it is very taboo to state anti-(other nations) feelings here, and I will even go so far as to say that such discourse would likely be heavily moderated through aggressive editing, warnings, and locking of threads. Not to mention the almost assured outpouring of outrage by those affected or upset by such activity (which would probably only serve to ramp up the degree of moderation).

The following employs the figurative use of "you" and "your", and is in no way directed at you Picabo:

I think it is important to remember that it is Americans (LL) who allow you to post anti-American sentiments here, and that those same Americans would probably take strong action, if your own nation of residence or origin was attacked on a regular basis in these forums.