This worries me ... discuss

Here's the thing that truly worries me.

What happens when they get rid of the ResMod program? Then what will we be upset about?

I agree with you about that. Not abusing the report post button is part and parcel of being a responsible forum participant, which is why I have no problem with them not being anonymous. I always assumed that they weren't to begin with. I've also always assumed that forum mods end up forming opinions about people who report tons of posts that aren't actually violating the TOS is any way. This isn't a privacy issue since we're all participating in a public forum. If there was some expectation of privacy here then we'd be allowed to have forum names seperate from our av names. Accountability is a good thing as long as the moderation itself is tolerant.

I have always loved your posts because you are just as you expect of others. The problem is, you are the exception, not the rule. The whole "responsiblity" thing fell apart the day residents were permiteed to have alts. We have people in the forums now that are alts of well known individuals that would NEVER say what they say for fear of the consequenses. *Anyone heard from Editorial Hare lately?* So we DO get around the separate forum identity issue quite well in fact.

There are folks that create those alts for a variety of reasons, none the less just to be a pain in the ass.

My concern is that for every rational forum participant there are just that many if not more that would use this information to cause problems in world or on third party sites. Yeah, my 3 years of online experience in several virtual worlds has shown me people can be that petty.

Right now, there are folks on the resmod list that could be considered competition to the business I share with Sam. If I AR someone who is a friend of that resmod, who's to say that "slight" doesn't get registered in their mind for future reference?

Would MY action cause harm to Sam because he is my business partner?

Sorry, we aren't large enough fish to risk hurting our business over.

Until Linden Labs rethinks this issue and the subsequent consequences of maybe having a less then trust worthy resmod slip into the pool or simply a trustworthy one that suffers from a bad slip in IRC, my days of being a good citizen and reporting the bad guys are over.

The worry should be about what happens when you get sent to the Old RestMod's Home and no one comes to visit you.

This particular issue is but one example of many why the resmod system can't work.

The reason it can't work is it gives other residents a hand in saying whether or not a resident can stay in the game, or whether he will be suspended, or even booted from the game, and all his goods confiscated due to what he has said on the forums.

In TSO, the forums were offloaded to Stratics long ago, and the resmod system put into place there. But at the same time, the rule that if you got suspended or banned from the forums meant automatic suspension or banning from the games was sensibly rescinded. (And never should have been in place in the first place.)

coco

I don't have a problem with ResMods seeing the reports, I do have a major problem with them seeing who filed it. It is very much a privacy issue. They could easily do their jobs without knowing who filed the report. The including of the name "in case further follow up" is needed is a red herring. There is no need for this functionality, and I hope they reconsider it. It is not about a trust issue, it is definitely a privacy issue. Even if the ResMods never ever said a word about who reported what, they themselves know - and that becomes an issue. I definitely hope they rethink allowing ResMods to see who filed the abuse report.

I don't understand how this is giving them a hand in whether someone will be removed from SL. ResMods are not able to issue TOS warnings, only LL can. If a post is determined to warrant action, it would have been actionable regardless of whether Jeska saw it first or a ResMod. The end result is exactly the same.

That's the decision I've come to as well. Besides, LL has ResMods to take out the trash now, so the rest of us can just sit back and get as lazy as we want. Let them do the work they've been chosen to do.

True, but there will always be petty people regardless of how the forum is moderated. Aren't you just as likely (and probably a lot more likely) to get on someone's bad side by what you post and your opinions as you are for reporting a post of someone else? Participating in the public square will always carry with it those kinds of risks so I don't tend to worry about them very much.



In all my time in the forum I've only ever reported one post that I can think of and it was this past week. Had the thread not been locked I'd have told the person so and why in harsh terms. I thought of PM'ing them my thoughts but I figured I couldn't do it without stepping way over the line myself. I figure what's the use of having an opinion if I'm not willing to throw it out there and let the chips fall where they may? (pun intended).

Chances are if a post is worth reporting most reasonable people who read it will see more wrong with the post than the person who reported it and any backlash from it will reflect far more poorly on the poster than the reporter.

One thing I find a bit ironic is that there have always been complaints that in world abuse reports are anonymous and people don't get to know what exactly they were accused of and who accused them. In my opinion, worrying that someone will find out that you reported their post doesn't mesh with that. I don't know your feelings on that issue but I'm willing to bet that many of the people complaining about this issue have complained about the other in the past.

Coco you can find resident discussions about why the Lindens cannot punish users in SL for what they say on third party sites here:
/120/f8/38359/1.html

While that thread includes the "lack of identity verification on third party sites", there are a host of other reasons why it would be a bad idea. The Lindens, however, keep it short and sweet with: "they ain't under our jurisdiction."
/invalid_link.html

However, I'm not sure if you are actually arguing with me here.

My point is that the Lindens have always had a strict policy of NOT punishing SL users for what they post on third party sites. I sincerely doubt they will make an exception if a resmod posts all the Abuse Reports (including the username who filed them) on thrid party sites. If the the resmod *IS* punished for this, then the Lindens will have to explain how the third party site suddenly came under their jurisdiction.

People who have nothing to hide should never fear the loss of privacy, right?

I think the big concern is retribution. There are some residents who can work very hard, and for a very long time to make your Second Life experience miserable just because you filed an abuse report against them (and yes, they can do it on the razor's edge of the TOS so they don't get banned for it.)

My point has been that the AR information was quite reasonably secure under pure Linden control for a variety of aforementioned reasons. In the hands of a rotating staff of resident resmods, some of which were not really interested in the job to start with ... I think AR leaks will become a fact of life.

Just speculating here, but Pendari indicated in another thread that they are under NDA. If they were to post the abuse reports on a third party site, it would breach their NDA. Depending on how it is written, the results of that could be disciplinary action against their SL account. In that circumstance, it wouldn't be violating LL's stance on third party sites - it would be a breach of contract issue.

She actually said there was NO signed NDA, just an agreement not to reveal this information.

So if Pendari published the ARs she saw during her time as a resmod (naughty girl ):

1. The Lindens would have to decide to legally pursue the breach of contract (which they never seem to do)

2. Their non-signed agreement (not an NDA, Pendari even admits this) would have to hold up legally.

3. Lindens would have to prove the person doing the posting was actually Pendari and not another person using her name who may have been another resmod, friend of a resmod, 1337 haXX0r that broke into the system and intercepted the e-mails...or what have you.

Maybe if Linden Lab and resmods faxed each other the necessary paperwork to make the agreement leagally binding it would help reduce the possibility. But I just think we have too many eyes with too little to lose looking over these ARs. That's why the AR system is dead to me until they repair this problem.

People who participate in a public forum don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy to begin with, do they? Should they? It is public after all. ResMods aren't going to be reading your in world IM's.



I'm not saying that it's not a risk. I'm just saying I think it's being overstated. I can only speak for myself but I honestly don't care if someone knows I reported them. If I don't feel strongly enough about it to be willing to have it be public, then chances are good it's not worth reporting in the first place. If people are only reporting serious infractions as a result, I personally think that would be a good thing. I'm playing devil's advocate here to an extent.

I'm curious how you square this with the belief that in world abuse reports shouldn't be anonymous and that people should be able to know their accuser and what they were accused of.

We have an expectation that the level of privacy we are promised is the level of privacy we GET. Anything I post on the forums I fully expect to be PUBLIC, obviously. Right now the Lindens are implying that our Abuse Reports are private. All I am saying is, this really cannot be true. Residents should be made fully aware of how volitile the AR privacy policy is, and plan accordingly. For me, it means not using the AR system anymore. Others may feel comfortable with it.

As I said above. some feel comfortable with it. I don't.

I don't. In-world ARs should stay anonymous too. I never said otherwise nor would I ever. If in-world ARs become subject to the same precarious level of security as the forums ARs, I will stop using those as well.

I'm all for personal responsibility. If I report a post, I will stand behind that report and have no concern over my name being attached to it. I wouldn't report a post unless I thought it was truly abusive or an obvious and mean-spirited violation of the ToS.

And if that is the case, then I'm fine with not only the ResMod seeing my SL name, but the forum poster as well.

Hmm that's what I get for not reading more closely. I can't believe they are not under an NDA. That makes it even worse.

Fair enough (I feel it only fair to inform you that I'm reporting your post for excessive use of consitency and logic!)

I know. I already read your AR on Pendari's blog.

haha! touche

<3

The answer is no. In Jeska's post it was explicitly mentioned that the ResMods do not see the email address of the person reporting the post. Just the SL name. Nothing more. We modified vBulletin to remove the email address.

-Pathfinder

Seems to me that to be under any kind of actual NDA, their RL identities would have to sign it.

As long as it's just avatars, then the only punishment they can receive is the same kind of punishment handed out to any griefer or "bad citizen" in SL. I am not saying that that would not be a big deterrent to bad behaviour, but it shouldn't really be called an "NDA" or implied that it's anything approaching a real check on someone.

It also should be noted maybe, that this is a clear difference between resident moderated boards in some other online communities and SL resident moderated boards. If your privacy and behaviour agreement is with a pseudonymous person as opposed to a real person, accountability is always going to be one step removed. I think I am right in assuming that in other user moderated boards, that real people are stepping up to moderate, not avatars.

I am sufficiently comfortable that the res-mods don't have access to our RL info, (although I wold like to see official confirmation on that), so I think it's appropriate to have "avatar-level deterrents" since the only info they can reveal is avatar info.

Aimee is right though that this basically means that "AR leaks" will happen. We have to get used to that. Even if the punishment was instant hardware banning for the slightest infraction (and who really believes they will be *that* harsh with what are essentially some of their best citizens), it will still happen.

ResMods don't see any RL info. They can't see IP addresses or email addresses.

They also don't have access to any special inworld abuse reporting or management systems whatsoever.

The only thing they see is the SL name of the person who reports a bad post. We gave them the absolute minimum power we felt was necessary to help them work with Residents who report bad posts. That is all.

For all practical purposes of disclosures of information worth less than oh - say US$100k - NDAs are worth absolutely nothing. Sure, you may imagine your SL Forum "privacy" to be priceless, but the courts don't, and they do so like to put valuation on things. If you think that NDAs would protect anyone from anything, you likely haven't seen NDAs actually used. As a formalization of a handshake about disclosure they may have perceived importance to the parties that sign them, but as a real tool of protection, not hardly.

Go to a video rental store, sign-up for a free "membership" and you have typically handed the $6/hour cashdroid enough information to take over your entire real fiscal life. I have seen that happen, and whether someone knows you said they hurt your feelings in a game forum post kinda pales in comparison.

And as has been noted repeatedly and ignored more often than that, the ResMods get your farking avatar name. Time to call the ACLU or the ASPCA or sumptin!

What makes you think your information was any more "safe" in the hands of LL? Their sterling reputation for information security? Okay, sure.