Overzealous Security and Rude Landowners

Yes you control whats on it, not what passes above it. By Linden Lab placing the group banlines at 50m above the terrain that seems to be where they define the begining of airspace.

And by placing the ability to eject you at 700 meters they seem to be sayin the landowner has total say. Or did you not wat a logical reply?

You can also use push at 700m. The lindens provided it in the scripting language so it must be ok to use right? Oh wait you can't do that. Just because its there doens't mean its appropriate to use it in any circumstance. Or did you not want a logical reply.

Its my land, thats what makes eject special at 700 meters. If you don't own the land you can't do it. This implies total control.

Which still may be a violation of section two of the community standards, if done with little or no warning.

I know! AR anyone who comes near you stupid skybox! Then, when LL gets upset you're ARing everyone and bans you {as should happen when a person files too many false accusations} then by gods, you'll rethink your paranoia!

Gods! I'm a paranoid schizophrenic! And you know what I have protecting my land?

* * * NOTHING * * *

Just a certain vigilance and the current land tools.

I have land tools protecting my skybox. Feel free to file false ARs against it.

Community standards require no warning, nor do they give you access to my land.

I give a warning consumerate with land size. Don't like it? BooHoo. Cry me a river.

Again "The rules of conduct are interpreted with the broadest meaning possible." Its not false . It falls right under section two of the CS.

Though we aren't talking your land, we are talking about the space above it.

It is false since I pay for the land and all buildspace up to the max.

The space above my land I pay for too, of who pays for anything above your mentioned 50m? If its for everyone them I shouldn't be charged teir.

One of the real problems here is that Jonas' wish, to be left alone, is really already handled. He has beuilt his skybox well above flight traffic. Anyone exploring the landscape of Second Life would have to say, "Hmm, I wonder about that green 't' on my mini-map, let's stop flying a bit and investigate." Rather than being bothered to manually eject people he has chosen a scipted object to handle the work. Except for a few that may be dogfighting with their planes there isn't much likelihood that his security system would affect anyone in Second Life.

However, it's mostly a problem of attitude. While Jonas has built his skybox well above the exploration window (which is generally draw distance height above the trrain), others have not, and his arguments for control of his parcel from earth to moon are taken up by those who are not considerate enough to be above that flight corridor. His rabid defense of his "rights" usually masks this issue, and encourages others to implement similar measures but in a less friendly way.

Jonas has asked for the "fliers" to bend. They actually don't need to in his situation because his choice (to be so high up) doesn't really affect them. I, too, would love a mini-map indicator of potential "skyblocks" to travel. I'd love if no-entry pushed you back rather than through. I wish eject also ejected any vehicle you were using. What we have right now is cooperation, and at least from Jonas, a safe passage through his parcel. Others aren't so kind.

The thing is I've flown over the mainland and none of people private skyboxes are at the same level. Ive tried to dodge between ones at 300, 500, and 700. Flying at 1,000m just to avoid all of this is ludacris.

Flying from place to place usually requires you to fly near the 700m altitude, because of security scripts that like to shoot first and ask questions later on the ground

There is no talking with people like Jonas who demand total control. None, flying and exploring are dead for me. The Lindens need to come up with a policy and enforce it.

See thats a shame. I still enjoy exploring and building aircraft, despite all this. Creativity is one of the coolest things in Second Life, and its a shame that so many are trying to stifle it.

I have added a warning, one that allows you to fly over if you go faster than 3m/s . I've already given some room. Its your turn. Shaddap and quit assuming.

Don't get me wrong, if you saw any of my earlier posts you know I'm no fan of security scripts and actually took the time to cite actual secondlife.com web pages that refer to our right to explore. My favorite flight vehicle is the "Mythic Airship" by Logan Bauer, which is more than two stories tall. It has auto-pilot allowing me to just nudge up or left/right when approaching tall builds but otherwise flies at such a pace as to allo me to enjot the scenery and chat with up to four passengers. I have been ejected at 100m and had a hell of a time trying to pull the thing back out because there was no warning and eject happened deep into the parcel. While the ship itself is copyable, I felt it was unfair to leave such a build on another person's property.

But as you say Kerian, and I was trying to point out when last discussing Jonas' skybox, at least he's way up at the build ceiling with a sensor that at best can use a 90m radius so unless you were flying well over the "sightseeing" level or just "seeing what this baby can do" at high speed, digging the sim border glitch at a high altitude, you wouldn't hit his security. But others, as I said, aren't so kind, and a build at 300m with a 90m radius can bring our glorious exploration to an abrupt halt. It's the others that are causing the problem, Jonas just loves carrying the torch.

I think at this point I will have to devote more time to the vehicle problems than I had intended for my presentation at the SLCC. Linden Lab promotional material and documentation clearly states that SL is designed for exploration and everyone has a right to explore even over no-access land (see earlier post for direct quotes, something none of the security fanatics have ever been able to duplicate in their rantings about renting a volume of space from LL, not a parcel). I need to know where they stand as their current "vision" in no way would work on a continquous corporate landmass if these security measures are to be tolerated.

Ok time for my 2 cents:

1. Security systems are TOS legal so long as they a) warn you and b) use the land tools and do not use llPush or llPushObject for repelling unwanted guests. This has been declaired by the Lindens so deal with it.

2. If you are not paying tier for air space as well as land, then why is the airspace above your land affected by your parcel limits and tools in the first place? Simple, because you ARE paying for the air space and thus you have a right to say no one can fly there.

Unless they're using a security device in a private sim YOU OWN, you don't have any say what so ever in how they choose to defend themselves or obtain privacy no matter how much you don't like it. The Lindens haven't banned for-sale signs, the impeach bush signs, land scanners, nor prim walls so I doubt they're gonna ban security systems any time soon.

Amen to that! After all, you've been giving lots of space from you side, you stubborn mule, you!

And we need to put a "Vote Bush" sign right next to your skybox! Anyone with me on this one? Better yet, make great BIG signs, and surround his precious little parcel!

Heck, this will give everyone warning to stay away, and ruin his view! But he should be happy, because {a} we did what we wanted {even if he doesn't like it} and {b} no one will be harassing him anymore by buzzing across his land, those dreadful criminal trespassers them!

Once again Ron, I have cited actual proof that Linden Lab designed Second Life for exploration in both promotional materials and documentation at thesecondlife.com website. Please provide counter information so I may ask them which is correct. If Second Life is not meant to be explored they need to edit a lot of web pages.

I think that this post is well thought out and I really appreciate it.

These devices are griefing tools, pure and simple, unless they have a HUGE delay on them (enough to lag, get confused, lag some more, stumble around for a bit, and then finally pick a direction and begin plodding along ... at a walk).

The worst part is that not only do a lot of them have a very short delay, but some are actually no-warning. There is NO justification for them. NONE.

Suffer through a major griefing attack, and then tell me that...

The kind of delay you're asking for is one that would give any griefer a shit-load of time to be a total git, which is kinda what the things are used to prevent a lot of the time.


Then again, at ground level I'd suggest using access-only white lists... even though at least one person would ban you for doing that, it's better than using the security scripts down there.
In the sky? You're only choice is a security script... ban lines don't reach and the white-list won't from Wednesday either... or leave yourself open to griefers.



Here's a thought... instead of having a go at the people who end up using them, why not try and do something about those who have created much of the demand for these devices? You know... the griefers themselves...

I have to say I , to a extent, agree with Jonas. Now Im going to be stoned to death, but hear me out and before you begin to rant and burn me at the stake think about what I have to say.

If Jonas wants to put out a security orb to keep ppl away from his skybox it is his right to do this on his land. But for everybody to say hey you have to put signs up sayin its no entry and protected is insane. I wouldnt mind putting up a sign if one on all four sides at a certain height was enough. But not everybody flying around i going to come from the same exact angle and direction that the sign is facing.

The whole put a fence up is another insane idea. I havnet been to Jonas's skybox but I have seen a few in my time flying around looking at stuff, and most people dont have a "yard" to fence in at that height.

As for the delay I posted earlier and edited it because I got eager and submitted before I finished. But to refresh the delay should be appropriate for what is being protected. So if you are protecting your skybox at 700 meters 6seconds is quite long enough because if your flying at that altitude there isnt much you can see at ground level. If your protecting your castle on ground level then 15 seconds is more than long enough. IMO any more time than this gives said intruder time to get pissy and litter the parcel.

As for complaints tp home is "griefing". No tp home and eject are not "griefing". A lil rude maybe and annoying yes but not griefing!

The best solution to this is to pay attention to the region/sim you are on/in and that way if you get sent packing you can comeback and hopefully avoid that area agian!!!!!

But this is exactly the point.

You go to a place and just get arrested for trespassing. No signs anywhere. Nobody told you to leave.

You fly on to a parcel, and are TP'd home. No warning. Nothing.

They're the same.

In real life, you have to get a warning to leave, or the police can't arrest you. If the police call, all they can do is ask you to leave the property if the landowner hasn't already done so.

In real life, there are signs and fences and stuff to warn you aren't supposed to be there. In SL, there are none, but you are expected to *KNOW,* though some metaphysicaly psychic connection with a land owner who doesn't want you to be connected to them in any way, that you're not supposed to be there.

It just doesn't work.

Also, irl, if they said, "You have five seconds to leave this land," and you're in the middle of a big hunk a land, that's not enough time to go. If they said, "You have until the police get here," that is enough time to leave the land. Unless the sheriff lives next door, in which case, he is apt to just walk you off the property.

So again, the short time limit warning doesn't work.

So we need to do *something* to warn people if they are going to enter land they aren't supposed to. And it has to be *reasonable* warning.

In life, you can not just put up a single sign that sez "No Trespassing" and call it reasonable warning on 100 acres. The sign is required, by law, every fifty feet or something.

And if you simply don't want a specific person on your land, you tell them where your land is, and ask them to never return.

SL already has the latter. It does not have the former, and most land owners are too stingy to consider trying to make the former.