It's worse then I thought

Naughty?

Actually, if someone were to buy a bunch of NO-copy (but trans) items and sell them for more... at least the original creator is getting what they thought was a fair price for each sale.

Valuation is just tricky. Some people will pay more to have something NOW, rather than shop around. 'Over' charging implies to me charging more than people are willing to pay, which sounds like a self-correcting problem.

Of course people will feel exploited if they find out they paid full price for something that was put into the public domain. We really do need a better business bureau.

(I had been avoiding the issue of customer explotation . . . because neither I nor my well-intentioned competitors were charging customers.)

The only experience I have with this in real life is getting art copyrighted and then sueing someone who stole it. Er.. I tried to anyway and failed.
But I learned the best way is to register. It costs a few dollars and takes a few months but it's worth it if you plan on using something for profit.

But if some of what you say has legal truth then we could resell MP3 files just because we have the tools to do so. And because they did nothing to prevent it within the media itself.
But we can't share them let alone resale.
If we do then a subpœna might come knocking on the door some years later.

On another note, I wish the poor mans copyright "sealed envelope" would hold up in court still but anymore it is easy to resteam envelopes now. So they tend to put much less weight on that. At least that is what I was told in my case.

Anyway, back to the point, if I give a full-perm item out and I check the Copy, Mod, and Transfer, that means I give them the right to copy, mod it, and transfer it. Nowhere does it say I give them the right to resell my item.
In fact I don't see the checkbox for "Resell" perm anywhere.
:edit: I do now. It was right in front of me. I've never payed attention to that.

That is a flaw in the tools in my opinion. But in any case perms have nothing to do with what I am "saying" to the next person who takes a copy.
But as everyone knows, it's easy to do.

Because of this, if I would put something on full perms, I will expect it to be spread around or resold. So I build that item around that fact.

The only real problem I have personally with people reselling my stuff is copy transfer with no mod. And that can be fixed with an obvious label on the no-mod package saying that this item is free. The item itself is no transfer. And they get the no-mod package when they take a free copy of the item. The package lets them give the item away to someone else. But since it is no mod then any texture or message put on the box is stuck there.

If someone still wants to buy the item even when they see it is free then that is their own choice I suppose.
Everyone does have a trade right after all. So long as both parties know it is normally a free item.

And I believe the fact that resale of free items does hurt the person who made the item.
Later, the people who find out the item they payed for is normally free, become less interested in buying more items from anyone. And for that reason it hurts everyone who sells.
Because "what if that item is really free"
They have no way of knowing.

"But if some of what you say has legal truth then we could resell MP3 files just because we have the tools to do so. "

FFS...

Have you not been listening to me? Permissions in SL do not solely grant the TOOLS to copy, they grant PERMISSION to copy. Hence them being called, surprise surprise, PERMISSIONS.

You have the ability to copy MP3s, but you do not have permission.

"a new players buys them, not realizing they are in circulation for free."

Plenty of times I've bought a DVD or CD or game, walked around the corner and seen it cheaper in another shop. The lesson is do your homework before you buy something. Scout around. Newbies are adults. They should know how to do this. If not, then getting gouged in SL is going to be the least of their worries, because they're going to get gouged plenty in real life for much more money.

This is what consumer choice is all about. Principle responsibility for getting a good deal rests with the consumer, as they are expected to be able to explore their options (shall I buy a red dress or a blue dress?) and decide what option is best for them (red, obviously!)

Failure to find out the patently obvious: that the items are freebies (if they'd paid attention during their introduction and given the parrot a kiss, they'd have found out about their Library and explored it) is a failure on the part of the consumer.

Why should sellers have to babysit them? Why don't YOU go out and babysit them? Start a peer review newsletter on products and distribute it.

Musuko.

If it is available for free, then it is immoral to sell it for money.

No excuses, none at all...

Yes I get the point on the permssions and I haven't bothered to notice, until just recently, that it does in fact say Resell on them.

So this really all boils down to one fact IMO.
Once again our tools are inadequate and SL has grown to a point where it demands change. As always.
So instead of flexy prims, as awsome as that is, maybe we can get the perms to be a bit more realistic.

I'm assuming that the reason behind the transfer and resell being in one box would be simply the fact that people can directly make a deal by sending a copy of some object after asking for a price. In other words it would bypass the perms.
That's all well and good if these freebie sellers would stand in the game all day trying to sell free items.
And one would have to ask why they would do that. And I'm sure some probably would.

In any case, if the perms had a resell option to keep unchecked. I would think it could stop a lot of this freebie market.

I wonder if that would damage any items that exist already.
If so it might have to come on the day of SL's apocalypse, interestingly enough, named Havoc 2
But thats just a myth or something isn't it?

I remember when I was a noobie and bought stuff that I later found out could be gotten free.
The experience made me ultra careful about buying anything in SL.

I have a small free yard sale spaces area and some freebie boxes. I don't let things stay there for sale, if I know they are free things. Sometimes it is hard to tell.

I believe there are too many free things going around in SL. There are already a hugh amount of freebies to get new players started. If people still want to give them more, they could put no transfer on them. This might eliminate some of the problems we are facing with the resell of free items.

"If it is available for free, then it is immoral to sell it for money."

Oh that's just stupid. EVERYTHING in the world can be free: you just go out and make it/find it yourself. Apples are free...if I have an apple tree.

Here's a thought for you...

...is my supermarket immoral for selling food while people in starvation-hit areas in Africa have food made available for free?

Musuko.

Jamie

I have something you badly need its called a moral compass like most of us I picked up at birth a as a freebie, you obviously did not. Sooooo, I am, in the intrest of fair play and captialism, going to set up a very fine yard sale, and package said moral compass JUST for YOU, in a pretty box and sell it to ya for the discount price of 500L.

Jamie Bergman come on dowwwwn and play the freebie price is right. You'll be a better person for the deal and might even make a few friends

If someone set out a bunch of food in front of their house with a sign that said "Free to needy people", and Vons comes up with a semi, loads it all up, and then sells it at their store at premium prices, that is very immoral.

That's essentially what's happening when you see people selling freebies (or items containing freebies as their primary content) for hundreds of L$

For example, just a few days ago, I saw an animation shop that was selling dozens of animations - stuff I had already found in freebie packs - for L$50 or more. This is exploiting the work of others, work that was intended to remain free, for profit. This is wrong. Violating someone else's IP rights this way is always wrong.

The only time you should be selling anything in SecondLife is when you have the express permission of the original content creator, or when you are reselling a "no copy" item that you no longer need. Reselling something that you received for free (with the expectation that it remain free) is a form of exploitation, and I can't see any situation in which that would be acceptable.


And no, you can't charge L$200 for the "labor" of collecting the items. FREE means FREE, not "Pay for the labor". Well, let me retract that: I see some places selling freebie bundles for L$1. L$1 is a fair charge for your labor.

Was the gas you put in the car you used to drive to the orchard to pick the apples you fed with fertilizer and watered every day? Or did you just have enough apples to make a pie from your backyard and then had to wait for the chance to make another pie? You seem to think that "free" means its just available. The resources to harvest the apple and grow the tree are NOT free. The time and care put into making the tree bare fruit is NOT free.

Really, trying to argue morals with people who self justify their actions is just a waste of time. There will be people who take advantage of newbies, set off bombs in crowded clubs, create self replicating menaces...I have words for them in real life but I keep them to myself for fear of them catching me in a back alley later.

Yeah!!!

You can't approach a mugger with a freshly stolen handbag in his hand and tell him he's just done wrong. But if he came running through these forums, I'm sure plenty of people would try telling him.

Yes, many companies sell water, but they add value to it by purifying, distilling and bottling or deliviering the purifed water. Would you go to a clean mountain stream and pay someone to take a drink from it, when you could easily move up or down stream and drink the same water for free?



Again, value added by modifying and adding to the code. He did not go out a steal MacOS outright and sell it. He created a similar type of O/S. Actually MacO/S was not the first graphical interface for computers. Xerox developed one before Apple it at its's Research Center.

Look at Linux, it's a free OS available to anyone for download, yet there are companies selling versions of it, i.e Redhat. They add value by adding utilities, automatic installs, support, etc. For a non techincal individual, going out and and downloading a publicly available "flavor" of Linux might be more difficult to setup then a packaged, value added, version. The Linux kernal, the heart and soul of the O/S is licensed by Linus Torvald, the creator of Linux. The licenses specifies what can cannot be done by others.

Legally, in the US any Public Domain intellectual content items have no limitations to the use. One can give it away, sell it, etc. But misrepresention of the item is illegal. Going back to the water argument, there were few companies in the past that took plain old tap water, bottled it and sold it as "Distiiled Artesian Spring Water". When they were found out, they were quickly shut down by the authorities.

While it is legal to take any Public Domain item without any licensing and selling it may not be illegal, but, in my opinion, is morally and ethically wrong.

My suggestion to people that create and give away freebees is to add a notecard with the item with a license similar to the GNU public license. This way they can specify what the next owner can and cannot do with the item. In RL this gives them legal options to pursue should anyone else violates the terms of the license. i.e. litigation.

"If someone set out a bunch of food in front of their house with a sign that said "Free to needy people", and Vons comes up with a semi, loads it all up, and then sells it at their store at premium prices, that is very immoral."

If he made a copy of the food at no cost and took it away to sell, not only would it be morally okay, it'd solve world hunger!

"Was the gas you put in the car you used to drive to the orchard to pick the apples you fed with fertilizer and watered every day?"

What makes you think I drive anyway? What makes you think a tree needs human help to grow and do it's funky apple-creating stuff?

"The resources to harvest the apple and grow the tree are NOT free."

Walking is free. Reaching up is free, plucking the apple is free. Well, it's not free free; I expend energy doing the actions...but then, I get that energy from the apple!

"The time and care put into making the tree bare fruit is NOT free."

Trees don't need my help doing that. They do it on their own. They're good like that.

"Really, trying to argue morals with people who self justify their actions is just a waste of time."

I'm not justifying my actions. I'm preaching common sense: if you don't want people to have freedom to do what they please with your stuff, don't give them permission to do so.

"Yes, many companies sell water, but they add value to it by purifying, distilling and bottling or deliviering the purifed water."

You can say that these freebie-sellers add value by packaging the freebies and putting them on display where newbies can find them. Call it a "finders fee".

Musuko.

Ah if only it were as easy as declaring some uniform standard code of conduct, something like:

Only if he GIVES it away not if he's selling it only to those who can afford his prices.




Not if you're doing it on someone else's land to someone else's tree, then it'll cost you the farmer's buckshot in your ass.



Yadni charges 1L$ for an entire box of dozens and dozens of free items... That is a perfectly reasonable finder's fee and not only do I have no problem with it, I gave him some donations because I think his junkyard provides a useful service. And I am aware of the time he will take to make sure that every donation I gave were my own creations and that I own the rights to them.

Charging 145L$ for a prim dress I spent hours making and I gave away as a freebie meant for new people so that they could feel and look good, just because you went to the trouble of putting it in a box by itself, (as I found at one yard sale) is not a finder's fee. It is a reason for me to set out the same dress right next to it in my own box, mark it for 0L$ along with a hovering text stating that the other box is ripped off merchandise.

I don't care that it's my creation. I'm not the one being ripped off as granted it is merchandise I wouldn't have made any money off of anyway. It is the new person who hasn't been in SL long enough to know what items are freely available and what items should cost money who is being ripped off. Yes they get over it and continue on to learn and have fun in SL. But the person who profits off them and off my is basically a parasite.

And with that I'm done arguing with you as clearly your moral compass and mine don't match up. I can only hope it's threads like this that impact those people who are unsure of the right and wrong of it and won't fall into being parasites themselves after reading it.

I find that the best solution to the freeby selling problem is to give a project library card to anyone asking for cheap/free stuff when just starting out, Freebie catalog/delivery system, and that allows THEM to pass along a Project library card when someone asks about the neatstuff they have.

What's a "Project library card?"

"Only if he GIVES it away not if he's selling it only to those who can afford his prices."

If they can't afford the prices they can go to where it is free and get it there.

"That is a perfectly reasonable finder's fee"

The value of something is determined by what the purchaser is willing to pay for it. If people are willing to pay X amount for the finder's fee, then X amount is what it is worth. What you consider to be "reasonable" is entirely subjective and biased, and means nothing.

"just because you went to the trouble of putting it in a box by itself, (as I found at one yard sale) is not a finder's fee."

People pay money for bottled water. All someone did was go through the trouble of putting it in a bottle (box).

"It is the new person who hasn't been in SL long enough to know what items are freely available and what items should cost money who is being ripped off."

They are adults. They are aware (or should be) that Second Life does not have consumer protections in place for ingame content. They should be aware of what "buyer beware" means. You act as if all newbies are blind fools who give their bank account details to Nigerian princes. A fool and his money are easily parted. At least in SL the amount of money will be measured in cents, and they will learn a valuable lesson; do your homework before you buy.

"And with that I'm done arguing with you as clearly your moral compass and mine don't match up."

These people are doing nothing wrong, in my opinion. They are using the rights granted to them by the creators to resell those items in whatever manner they choose, and adding their own markup to the price of a product. You believe that their markup is overblown and not worth it. But then, you'd have to say the same for the coffee you buy at $10 a pound that is grown for 10 cents a pound. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but you as a consumer do not have the right to dictate prices to the producers...not unless you want to back out of the free market system altogether.

If you do not wish for people to resell your freebies, do not give them permission to resell your freebies.

Musuko.

wow Im speachless!!

Actually what I've done now is gone over the free items I still have out and set them all to no modify. In the description line I've written, "This is a freebie item to be given away NOT meant for resale." It was a suggestion posted in these forums by someone else whose name I can't recall now. (A process which took me more than a few hours btw)

I find it unfortunate though because as it is now, people won't be able to modify the prim skirts to adjust for size. They won't be able to modify the items and add their own personal touch.

I will not however make my items no transfer or no copy. I want people to be able to give them away freely, thats what they're for. So while it is now still possible for people to ignore my written instructions and do as they please, at least the written instructions are there for the buyer to read after they've blown their money. (I make clothing and once clothing is placed into a box, it isn't possible for the buyer to read the properties of the clothing item until after they've bought the box and taken the items into their inventory)

I just had to add my 2 cents to this I, as a consumer, have been appaulled by some of the people who sell stuff I got as a freebie on some other places, as this thread is all about. I'm not a total newb anymore, so I have been around shopping, when I finally have something to shop with...yay!

From seeing all these ppl selling off freebies at higher prices, not only do I not buy those boxes from them, but I won't buy anything else from them either. Even if it is their original creation, and cheaper than someone else's, and I pass the word around to ppl I know, so they will boycott them too. Now, I don't know how effective that is, but it's the only thing that I, as a consumer can do. And I also warn all the newbies I come across, not to shop in certain places, but rather check out the freebie ones.

Finally /tiphat to all those wonderful ppl who put their creations out there for even newbs to afford acquiring. You get my future business as well, and that's how we entice more ppl to stay in SL and consume, not by trying to rip them off and claiming they should've known better. Heck, when I started, I didn't even know how to walk properly, kept hitting walls a lot... (Umm..still get a few bumps every now and then..)

Finally 2: someone has been doing some work for the business I work in, and I must confess, now that I know where they stand, I'm glad I forgot the plea of extra financing for their "work" for the company. Never will I pay them one cent for anything..and the word goes around too... It's been a while since I took a class in economics, so someone please define it, but much more ppl will tell others about bad business experiences, than about good ones. So I do hope, what goes around, comes around and bites them all where it hurts the most.
/rant off

Mia

Is it fair to say the problem boils down to this?

"It is a deceptive business practice to let customers think they're paying someone for a product designed and created by the person being paid, when instead they're really only paying for the labor to find the item and box it up for sale."

While it's not necessarily false advertising, it can easily be considered 'lying by omission'.

And as much as I despise the practice... is there a strong enough a case to 'outlaw' the practice within SecondLife?

It is wrong yes... but punishable? and on what grounds?

--
The guy at the pawn shop was unsure whether he should
buy the ornate, but stolen, rapier for personal use.

He was a fence, on the fence, for a fancy fencer's foil.

Ethics. Taking what soemone intended to be free and making a profit.

Resell the packets of cd demo singles thats record companies hand out and see how far you get.

Well, for starters your "cd demo singles" are promotional materials, and aren't designed to be passed from person to person "for free" they are, as I've seen, free for initial recipient only, and they are asked not to resell them as a condition of receiving the copy.

They can always sell their right to own that copy, and used cd stores DO, quite often, sell these exact same cd demo singles. Mind you, they aren't making unauthorized copies of them. So your use of this as an example against the practice is rather off the target.

Now. On what grounds do you propose making the "lie by omission" inherent in reselling freebies illegal and wrong?

And if you can't make it illegal and punishable... or against the ToS and punishable... why do you persist in claiming the practice is "wrong"?

I don't like it either... but apparently the system was specifically designed with the intent that content put into the "public domain" as copy/mod/transfer was fair came for any kind of re-use/re-sale by anyone that felt like it. If you go back and read the posts by the various lindens on the topic of wrappers and permissions you will see that this is intentional.

Find a COMPELLING argument to change LL's mind on the issue if you don't like it. Unless you're under some wild delusion that harshing on Jamie in the forums will actually have *ANY* positive impact.

Just because soemthing is legal does not make it ethical or right. IP rights, these people put it out to be free, hows that for compelling. The only way to stop it is to actively go by her shop, stand on linden land, and give away the freebies she's selling. I have done that many times and received many thanks.

But I'm sure harshing on those wo complain about the parasite will have a positive effect, right?