It's worse then I thought

How on earth can you possibly know? And besides, how can the person who bought it off another person in good faith possibly know?

The person that changes a 'freebie' into a 'pay-me' knows.

The person buying usually won't know until they have the object and can see
that the creator doesn't match the person they bought from. They might never
find out. Does successful deception suddenly make the practice "okay" ?

The word of the day is fraud.

--
This message may be re-used by others for personal profit if they so choose.

"not true. This is from the Second Life web page:"

Ah. I was unaware. Thank you for the correction.

"The original intent of the original author of the freebie was clearly to make something 1) FREE, 2) COPY and 3) MOD.

By using the permission to MOD something to remove the FREE aspect, you are deliberately violating the original creator's EXPLICIT copyright terms."

Just because something is given to you for free doesn't mean that you in turn are required to keep it free if you decide to pass it on, unless the creator specifically states that this is in the terms of the copyright granted to you by the copy/trans combination. Take a look at a thing called Creative Commons for more information.

Put more simply, if someone gives you a full-perms item and does not state any kind of restrictions on your use of it, you are under no obligation to follow any restrictions. There is no SHOULD involved.

"The word of the day is fraud."

Charging more for a product than your competitor charges is not fraud. It's the free market.

If you people are SO concerned about this issue, buy some land next to the "scammers" and put up a big sign pointing out that the objects for sale there can be obtained more cheaply elsewhere.

Overcharging for something is not even listed in that wikipedia article. Why did you bother linking to it?

Oh, and am I the only one remembering the welcome island and the friendly parrot? You know, that place that guided you through your inventory and what's in it? If people neglected to go through that induction, then they remain newbies of their own accord. The means to handle themselves was given, but they refused to take it. I have little sympathy for the man who doesn't wear his seatbelt and later complains that flying through the windscreen wasn't much fun.

Musuko.

Take someone elses work, something made to be distributed at no cost, and sell it on at a profit to people who can ill-afford it, then blame them for you ripping them off...


Way to give SL a good name guys... Congratulations.

People like Jamie could be prevented from doing business this way with one new feature which I'm certain has been mentioned several times in other threads....
Change the three options to four
copy
modify
resell
giveaway

Make it possible to check off the giveaway permission without checking the resell permission so that an item can be copied and traded between inventories but never marked for sale and sold in a vendor or box.

Next time folks ask why I don't make any more freebies see exhibit A.

I recently passed all my old freebies onto Red Linden, who was asking for freebie stuff, then deleted all of it from my inv - I'm not even keeping it in my inventory anymore.

I am removing myself from this thread now, as my presence is no longer required here. You know my stand.

Goodnight.

If there was nothing wrong with ripping off newbies and sellings freebie items, she would NOT have to defend herself dont ya think?

Just think logically for one minute, if there is nothing wrong, then nothing to defend correct?

exactly.

Not true.

I have personally made items that I have set out as freebies and I could care less if someone sells them. Some people can't build/texture/script at all. If the only way they can earn some green it sell that stuff I left out for free, well good for them.

I made it copy/mod/tran/RESELL and that's what I meant. So it's great if you don't want others to sell your stuff, but some of us really don't give a crap either way.

It sort of bums me out that Siggy let's it get him so tense that he stops even trying to help folks. Don't let the jerks get to you, you can still help out the noobies by telling everyone you see where Yanni's freebie place is. Or better yet do like I have seen others do. Make them copy/no mod/tran and then on the second line of the name part put “FREEBIE ITEM: NOT FOR RESALE” or something like that.
I just hate to see ya stop helping folks out cause of what you see as bad behavior by a few folk.

If I fish a fish out of the ocean, I did not work to create it (the fish's parents did that), yet I go to market and sell it.

Selling something which someone else is willing to buy is not exploitation. Nobody forces them to buy it, and they can continue to live quite happily without buying it.

If I put one of my old, stinky, worthless socks on Ebay and someone buys it for a dollar, am I exploiting them? Does it matter if I think they're a sucker for buying it? If they're happy with it, then they're happy. If they find out they can get something like it elsewhere for a better price, then they kick themselves and learn from it. OR they realise that prices are set for a reason...sure you could go out and fish for yourself and get your haddock for free, or you could pay higher prices for the convenience of getting it at a supermarket.

PLEASE REMEMBER THE FOLLOWING:

1: all newbies are shown how to find the library in their inventory back on welcome island.
2: no newbies are "poor". Fuck, they're on the internet playing a graphics intensive and high-bandwidth game. Only the richest 1% of the world can do that comfortably.

So stop shedding tears for them.

Musuko.

That's the spirit!
You don't need our blessing to be a rip-off artist... just go do it. Nothing's stopping you.

Hey I have a great hot tub I'd like to sell you for 500L by the way. IM me!

That is one way to look at it.

One could also walk into a fast food restaurant and begin pocketing the free condiments that are left on the tables, and then go back to their own store and start charging extra for ketchup and mustard.

The condiments can't be stolen... they're free right?

But now you're profiting from something that is technically the righful property of someone else.

My point: If the only information you have about the original owner's intent are the attributes on the object... then the COST attribute is just as relevant as the MOD or COPY attribute in determining what the O.C.'s intent was.



"Over charging" is utterly irrelevant.

You may possess a modible object, but it's not YOUR product to sell unless you have permission from the original creator. MOD, by itself, does NOT grant anyone the intellectual property license and rights to remarket someone else's work as your own. It grants you the ability... not the rights. There is a difference.

The original creator may not care, as Calista has pointed out, and if apathy or consent has been expressed, fantastic, remarket away.

Otherwise get license to remarket from the O.C. first.

It's easy... click the (profile) button next to the creator's name... click (Send IM)... say "Hi, I have one of your freebies called (whatever) and I was wondering if you would mind me using it for resale in my shop? It's really cool and better than I could do myself... either way, thanks!"

And if they say yes... you're blessed. If they say no you can avoid an embarassing incident later when the original creator sends you hate mail.

Keep in mind, that not all copy/mod items floating around were intended to be public domain. I still see several of mine from time to time.

--
At the heart of Capitalism is property...

Only thieves and Communists have disregard for intellectual property rights.

Actually its the bad behaviour of a few folks.... over a couple of years.

Some of whom have the gall to send their customer support and request for refunds (when they screw the perms up so bad the stuff don't work anymore) to me.

I'm hoping that Reds work on new library items will be a step in the right direction - if they are included in the library it will royally screw over folks doing the resell-ripoff thing.

As for me - it was lesson learnt. I figure if they can take an old freebie and make 6 - 700 lindens off it, I'll improve my designs, undercut them, and beat them at their own game.

But I don't feel the need nor the desire to give out any of my work for free anymore. SL has changed since myself and a few others started the GNUbie store in Davenport - then it was a community of creation and sharing, now its a community of capitalism and trade secrets.

I still enjoy SL - I'll just adapt to the new environment.

"Helping" with Freebies - for me anyways, has caused a bigger pain in my arse than any commercial venture I have ever participated here. I've copped more flack and grief over the stuff I did for free than for anything I charged for.

It's a sad state of affairs - but thats what history has shown me over the past couple of years in SL.

I'm not gonna lose sleep over it - or even worry about it - but I will put it out there for any idealists so they know what they're getting in for, and hopefully will be hardened when the dissapointment comes.

My parting advice - something I said in a thread a long time ago, one of the first threads on this subject - my reasons why I thought the experiment with the newbie store in davenport was (in my opinion) a failure:

"We wanted to help the community - but it's my beleif we had our priorities wrong, instead of making things to help a community, we should have been making a community worth helping"

I have been thinking of going over to AW to find a certain young lady who actually built the motorcycle freebie you sell. I've known her for many years and I am certain she would not be happy to hear someone is selling her freebie.

*deleted original comment*

I must say, it is very disheartening to read this thread and see people falling over themselves to justify theft.

Ok I got a few points to make


OMG WTF ARE YOU GUYS DOING!

YOU ARE TELLING THE QUEEN OF CRUNK (ROFLLMFAO) THAT SHE IS SELLING FREEBIES..I am not gonna even say how badly she tried to attract a different audience with her picture of Lil Jon and a can of Crunk...

Freebie selling has become a part of SL and it has formed 2 major groups of residents.

1. The people who live with it!
2. The people who fight againts it!

Number 2 overules number 1 by a hell of a lot but its okay if people decide to live with it, respect their decisions although the person who does it is the worst of them all.

Please guys stop fucking compairing Second Life to Real Life....Second Life is actually much easier to steal things if you didn't notice. I hate freebie sellers but we've all done it, admit it when you just started the game you sold the occasional freebie.

Don't think I'm defending Bergman because shes been here a friggin year lmfao.

I FUCKING HATE IT HOW SHE GETS HER EMPLOYEES TO MESS UP MY FUCKING SHOP! SHE GOT HER EMPLOYEE *NOT SAYING NAMES* TO PUT PRIMS OVER MY VENDORS AND ENTRANCE TO MY STORE...Still think shes a fairy princess that should be sprinkled with roses whilst in a jacuzzi that made bubbles out of love hearts that tasted like strawberries.

I would redefine your categories.

1. Virtual crooks.
2. Honest people.

Turn on auto-return, problem solved.

Lewis

"You may possess a modible object, but it's not YOUR product to sell unless you have permission from the original creator."

If the object is set trans-ok you DO have permission to sell it. That's what it MEANS: that you have permission to give it away or sell it on.

"I must say, it is very disheartening to read this thread and see people falling over themselves to justify theft."

Selling something that you get given for free is not theft. I am not stealing from my grandma if she gives me a toy for my birthday and then I sell it on ebay a few years later.

"I am certain she would not be happy to hear someone is selling her freebie."

How about talking to this person you've "known for years" and find out whether she likes it or not, rather than just assuming?

"One could also walk into a fast food restaurant and begin pocketing the free condiments that are left on the tables, and then go back to their own store and start charging extra for ketchup and mustard."

If those condiments had a little ticked box on the packaging that said "it is okay for you to copy, modify, GIVE AWAY OR RESELL this product", then yes.

"You may possess a modible object, but it's not YOUR product to sell unless you have permission from the original creator."

YOU DO! If TRANS is ticked, then you have that permission. That's what it MEANS. They are called PERMISSIONS, and TRANSFER being ticked means YOU ARE GRANTED PERMISSION TO GIVE IT AWAY OR SELL IT! How are you not understanding this?

If people don't want their freebies freely distributed or sold, they should not grant people the right to do so!

This isn't about MOD, because MOD doesn't allow you to give away or sell an item. This is about TRANS, and if TRANS is ticked, then the creators cannot complain (although, it seems to me that the creators aren't complaining...it's all you busybodies who are). They have given an item to people and said "do with this what you like" by setting full perms...which means THEY CAN DO WITH THEM WHAT THEY LIKE!

That includes selling them.

Don't want your freebies sold? Untick TRANS. It's as simple as that.

Musuko.

I think the issues are actually:

1) Free items being sold for a profit, when the original creator made them free as a service to the community, not a pocket-lining exercise for someone else.

2) Taking someone else's work and selling it as if it's your own. That's just stealing, however you wish to look at it.

If I buy something for L$500 and then decide I don't want it, so I sell it to another player for L$250 then that's fine. Selling multiple copies for L$250 is not. It's a subtle difference but to me it's very very clear.

Lewis

"1) Free items being sold for a profit, when the original creator made them free as a service to the community, not a pocket-lining exercise for someone else."

If they didn't want people to resell them, they should not have given them the right to do so by granting them that permission. Again, making a gun, giving it to someone, then bitching that they're shooting people with it.

"2) Taking someone else's work and selling it as if it's your own. That's just stealing, however you wish to look at it."

That is not the issue here. If I sell an iPod on ebay, I am not claiming I made the iPod. Ditto for items sold at yard sales. Unless, of course, the yard sale owner puts up a sign saying "I made these items", but I don't think that's happening. If it is, it's wrong, of course.

"Selling multiple copies for L$250 is not."

If someone has given you a copy/transfer item, then it is perfectly acceptable for you to sell multiple copies for L$250. That is why most people are smart enough NOT to give copy/trans items to people, as that is effectively granting them a franchise.

People, please, pay more attention to Permissions. They are how you control what people can and cannot do with the items you give away or sell. If you don't want someone to do something, DON'T GRANT THEM THE RIGHT TO DO SO!

How on EARTH can you expect to be taken seriously if you say "it's okay for you to sell this" by ticking the box, then turn around and say "I don't want you to sell this"?

Musuko.

And this relates to items that are made for the sole purpose of being distributes far and wide at no cost to anyone how?

That's right, it doesn't.


Your argument here destroys the entire idea behind the freebies... to help the new players get a start in Second Life.

Is it that you are really saying "Fuck helping the newbies..."?

If these forums had a profanity filter, my response to you would send it into meltdown.

Suffice to say that you have absolutely NO IDEA how these things work, and reselling other people's work to make yourself a profit is just plain wrong. It's theft, there's no other way to put it. No amount of spin on your part can ever change that fact, and you should be ashamed of yourself for doing it.

It is people like you, and action like that, that are destroying Second Life.

Lewis

That's the problem with permission system -- the right to _transfer_ is combined with the right to _sell_ ... so you cannot grant someone the right to give out copies without restricting them from charging for these.

This is placing people againt the wall. if they want other people to be able to share this work, they have no option but to allow resell the 'freebies' even when it doesn't have to be the intention of original creator.

Although am not sure if this is such a big issue, because if someone is able to look up 'junkyard sale, cheap items' in the Find window, then they're equally able to look up 'free items' and 'stuff for newbies' in the same place? ^^;;