It's worse then I thought

Sell for L$0 or L$1? Nobody's forcing anyone to put "200" in the price box.

Lewis

Do you sell/resell freebies, Musuko?

LOL wait.. are you comparing selling freebies to the accomplishments of Bill Gates? *Most* not all but *Most* of the freebies ( that I was ever given or stumbled upon at least ) were basically crap no one else wanted. They usually included peoples obvious first attempts at clothing, but hey beggers cant be chooser and nice to get that stuff when you have nothing . To actually try to SELL that stuff is WORSE than selling water.. at least they take the time to put it in a fancy bottle that you can reuse


**Edit just to really make it clear that I KNOW there are alot of people that DO make quality free items and actually make them and work hard on items thats only purpose is to be given away and didnt mean to call THAT stuff crap , I was talking about the OTHER stuff **

Was i right by doing this? Reporting it that is. I blacked out the name and locations on this snapshot to keep from violating that naming names rule, but the lindens have the real one.

Absolutely.

The above example is perfectly legit because your selling your rights of possession over one instance of that product. It's why used bookstores are legal. They don't print books, their business is trade... not production.



And you can copy a dvd and sell it to... because you can.

Does that mean you have permission? "How are you not understanding this?"



Thats like saying:
Don't want someone else milking your cow? Shoot the cow. It's as simple as that.
(Besides it won't help with modable scripts.)

Something doesn't need to be made impossible for it to be wrong.

No permissions system will ever be foolproof... if ability determines legality then apparently you're saying it's okay to take screen caps of other people's textures and re-use them, because the system allows it.

If someone can't make something worth selling on their own... I don't want them marking up my stuff and passing it off as theirs. I've long since given up on 'transfer' for anything that I haven't labelled as specifically annotated otherwise.

The more intellectual property rights are abused...
the less desirable it will be to create new I.P. in secondlife.

--
"It is as simple as that." -- Musuko Massiel

The actual check box says "Resell/Give away"

Checking the box is the same as saying "It's ok for you to sell this"

What they need to to is seperate "resell" from "give away". That would solve the whole prob.

It would help, I'm all for it...

but it won't solve the whole problem, (case in point: modable scripts).

Or, the practice of shoving freebies in boxes and charging for for them that way.

Well, I can go into your store and point out one thing that i know for a fact is a freebie, because it says so in the discription line of the object. So please tell me again how you do not sell Freebies?

"Your argument here destroys the entire idea behind the freebies... to help the new players get a start in Second Life."

Nothing stops you giving away freebies with copy/mod/notrans if you do not want them resold. Don't grant people a right if you don't want them to use it.

"Suffice to say that you have absolutely NO IDEA how these things work, and reselling other people's work to make yourself a profit is just plain wrong."

My mother buys books, sets them out in a shop and sells them at a profit. She doesn't write the books, print the books or bind the books. What is she doing wrong?

What you mean is taking someone's work, copying it, and selling the copies. Yes, doing this without permission of the creator is wrong. However, in SL, if "copy" and "resell/give away" is ticked in the permissions of the object, the creator HAS given you permission to do this.

"It's theft, there's no other way to put it."

I prefer to call it "using the copyright that was expressly granted by the creator."

"No amount of spin on your part can ever change that fact, and you should be ashamed of yourself for doing it."

What makes you assume I do it? Am I not allowed to stand up for the rights of other people? I don't have to agree with what you say/do to defend your right to do it.

"Do you sell/resell freebies, Musuko?"

See above.

"And you can copy a dvd and sell it to... because you can. Does that mean you have permission? "How are you not understanding this?""

You can copy a DVD even when you are not allowed. You cannoy copy an item in SL unless you are allowed. By giving you the ability to copy the item, the creator is giving you permission to do so. That's why they are called "permissions".

"Thats like saying:
Don't want someone else milking your cow? Shoot the cow. It's as simple as that."

No. It's like saying "if you don't want someone else milking your cow, don't tell people they are allowed to go and milk your cow."

We're not talking about ABILITY to copy and distribute. We're talking about PERMISSION to copy and distribute. Those little tick boxes in the object properties determine what permissions you want to grant to the next owner. If you tick "copy" and "resell/give away", then you are giving the next owner both PERMISSION and ABILITY to do so, not just ability.

"Checking the box is the same as saying "It's ok for you to sell this""

Exactly.

"It is people like you, and action like that, that are destroying Second Life."

I have created several popular items that many (many hundreds) enjoy. In particular, the first decent scripted diaper that is now enjoyed by many in the AB/babyfur community. I am also the builder for Tartarus island.

There. I've waved my penis. Time for me to see yours. How much SL-enriching content have you created?

My store is called CKC (Clever Kitty Creations). You can find outlets in several places, or you can find the main store in Find by typing in the name. Feel free to stop by and check that I'm not selling freebies.

Musuko.

Indeed, but then nothing _prevents_ them from putting "200" there when the original creator would rather it to be "0" if they intended the item to be a freebie.

It's not the issue that you can put anything in that box, it's that you have to allow people to put indeed anything there, if you want to grant them ability to give the item to someone else in the first place.

Musuko Massiel-

Of all the people that have created and released mod/copy/trans items into the public domain ...

How many of them do you think WANT other people to SELL their FREEBIES?

--
Leeches suck.

In the year that I have been in SL I have never sold a freebie and never will. So, no not all of us have done so.

Nope.

Closest I've ever come was when I had just started playing around with making clothes. The first clothing item I ever made. I had a lace shirt and lace underwear freebie set in my inventory and I altered them using the sliders, changed the color and created a prim (prim part took two tries over two days because I was still learning and sucked at it lol) lace skirt by finding a lace texture as close to matching as i could. I sold three of those dresses in a vendor for 75L and at the time I thought given the amount of time and effort I had put into them it was worth it. Now I give those prim dresses away in my freebie packs instead as since then I've learned more.

No it simply isn't perfectly acceptable, not if I say it isn't. If I make something and you KNOW based on my words or based on the fact that I just gave it to you for free that it is MEANT to be free... and then you turn around and sell it for 250L, well then you owe me 250L because I just gave you a gift and you crapped all over my efforts.

If I give an item as copy/transfer it is because I hope you will share it with others (in fact the times when I've given them personally I've actually said so) not because I hope you might get lucky and make a few bucks off me.



I am paying attention, I'm making a choice based on the limited options I have.
If I check that transfer box the only thing I expect to happen is TRANSFERRING unless I say otherwise.

If I hand you a box of clothing and it's all copiable and transferable, the next words you will hear me say are.."These are all copiable so that you can share them with other newbies, please do."

Never at any point do you also hear me say .. "Oh and if you want to make a few bucks off my labor go for it!"

So if you do sell it and I find it in your little store (general "you" not directed) or vendor, wherever.. you will log in to find a sign right there, with my name on it, telling people where they can get those items free. I know the sign would be returned but when you return it, you'll know I'm aware of what you're doing and I've made my point.

That said, however if someone took say a cute little bed with a cuddle pose on it that I made and went nuts with it, turned it into a big gorgeous detailed bed that is all their personal style and just the ghost of my old prims.... Then they can do whatever they want with it... hey I'll applaud them and maybe buy one off them.

there will always be people with out an ounce of moral fiber in there entire being and those advocating selling freebies are exactly that. It may be within the guide lines as being OK to do but by doing so you show your self as being one with out any morals or character.
basically you are just another conartist out to take advantage of someone else who does not know any better.

folks like you have been around since the dawn if time and will be around till the end of days and I don't believe in heaven or hell but if i did i say you were all going to hell.

OH NO HES MAKING A $1L BURN THEM CHASE THEM DOWN!!....Honestly mabey another check box is needed to prevent the selling of items but then there are ways around it...

For example\\ heraldo: Hey can i get that slot machine?(has the give away option selected) BoBerto: Sure gimmie $5L..... Dosent seem to work.

The only way i can see the problem being solved is either every freebie has a no transfer option which would be kind of outrageous. Or the person could move on and get over the fact that they granted the permission to RESELL/give away..

The texturing deal has the same problem, Anyone can resell them because the box is checkd, Dose the owner of them have each individual texture copywrighted, Mabey in the notecard they ask you nicely to not redistribute..People still do resell them. But i yet to of found a place that has all the textures that cost money up for sale for cheaper and i still see people shopping in texture stores and the texture buisness lives on..

I am also a yard sale junkie and see people reselling freebies for stupid prices..And ive learned what is a freebie and what is not its not that hard to figure out...When the item forsale is a copy...And is made by somone else..and has full perms..WOAH WAIT A SEC THEY MUST BE RIPPING ALOT OF PEOPLE OFf..not...The simple soultion is to check theese its not like they can hide the fact its a freebie O.o , and if you reallly want it check if the creator has a shop and see if its in the shop for free orrr buy it!

Plus you guys are saying its imorral and all that babble...It would be immoral if they copyed your work exactly using their own prims then claimed they made it, But when YOU grant the resell premission and YOU give it or sell it away and it just happens to land in somones posession who wants to resell it, Whos fault is it really???

"How many of them do you think WANT other people to SELL their FREEBIES?"

They shouldn't give people permission to sell their freebies then should they?

"No it simply isn't perfectly acceptable, not if I say it isn't."

Then you should A: state your desire for it to remain free on the object itself and B: find some way of enforcing that, as Second Life has a very limited law-enforcement system.

Or, you know, you could just use the permissions system they have provided for you to serve this very purpose.

"If I make something and you KNOW based on my words or based on the fact that I just gave it to you for free that it is MEANT to be free..."

If you do say or state to me that you want it to remain free, then yes, I would be a bastard for selling it on rather than keeping it free. I would be breaking the copyright licence you have granted to me (free to copy, but not for commercial use). However, you must state that provision of no commercial use, otherwise you'll just have the permission ticked, which says: "you may use this as you wish with no restrictions whatsoever".

Effectively, ticking those boxes grants ALL rights. You must then retract the ones you don't wish the second user to have.

"Never at any point do you also hear me say .. "Oh and if you want to make a few bucks off my labor go for it!""

Yes I do. You have said it by ticking "resell/give away" without adding any stated limitation on resell.

Effectively, you're saying "Do what you like" and forgetting to add "but don't eat off the tree of knowledge". If you're gonna say "Do what you like" (adding the permissions), you need to say the other bit (putting a note in the object, or the object's description line, etc).

"That said, however if someone took say a cute little bed with a cuddle pose on it that I made and went nuts with it, turned it into a big gorgeous detailed bed that is all their personal style and just the ghost of my old prims.... Then they can do whatever they want with it... hey I'll applaud them and maybe buy one off them."

So surely all of your freebies should contain, somewhere within it, the following: "You may freely distribute this item. You may not use it for commercial purposes unless modifications from the original design warrant it".

In the end though...

...

...

...

How many of you "moralists" have cruised camping chairs in your time? Hmm?

Musuko.

Musuko Massiel

They shouldn't give people permission to sell their freebies then should they?

Because I leave a house window open, you assume it is now 'acceptable' to let yourself in.

"Never at any point do you also hear me say .. "Oh and if you want to make a few bucks off my labor go for it!""

Yes I do.

The 'voices' are talking to you again....

I have no problem with people incorporating freebies into new products... and charging for the delta between what they added and the original freebie.

Program code can't be written to fix this problem.

The only solution is to make it clear that the practice of selling freebies is not tolerated.
It's not just mod/copy/trans items... it's texture thieves and script kiddies too.

Selling someone else's work without consent is reprehensible.

Permission bits, regardless of the voices in your head saying otherwise, are NO excuse for not asking the original creator for consent to re-sell.

"Because I leave a house window open, you assume it is now 'acceptable' to let yourself in."

SL permissions are a statement of permission being granted to the next owner. It is acceptable for someone to come into your house through your open window if you put up a sign saying "you have permission to enter this house".

"Selling someone else's work without consent is reprehensible."

Granting resell rights on an object through the permissions IS giving consent for someone else to sell your work. How do you not understand that?

It's not just granting ABILITY. It is giving PERMISSION. Hence them being called PERMISSIONS! Duh.

Musuko.

Musuko,


It's semantics and you know it. As folks have mentioned another permissions option would alleviate a lot of this. As the perms now stand we are relying on the 'honor' system. You are following the letter of the law if not the spirit.

Utter Horse doo-doo.

But I am a Princess

"People need to know whether or not their Queen is a crook..... well, I'm not a crook." - Queen J. Bergman on National Telecast

How will you explain ripping off newbies come judgement day to your god?